The UK industry has little to no regard for university degree holders

[Artist_in_a_box]

I saw something today that made me livid. I found a job advert for a junior artist role. After reading all the requirements and feeling pretty confident I was about to apply when I saw that they wanted a minimum of 2 years work experience in a media company.

This got me thinking. Does the UK industry have any respect for the games industry education at all? Granted it is pretty bad but surely a degree must count for something? This requirement in the role in question was almost certainly put there to block %90 of graduates from applying for the role and to be honest I find that absolutely disgusting.

My university was god awful, by the end of it most of the guys who passed still didn't know the very basics, and I mean basic. A few guys didn't even know how to apply a texture (no joke, and this was THIRD YEAR). I am insulted by this because I worked really hard for my degree and I think I came out of uni with some decent skills under my belt and all I need to do now i theory is keep working on portfolio. Whats pissed me off is that I went to uni for 3 years for absolutely nothing seeing as uni taught me nothing and my degree is worthless as the industry actively avoid graduates.

At the risk of sounding like a complete child but how is this fair at all? How can the industry not step in and tell the educational authorities that they are doing an abysmal job and how can the educational bodies fail to notice that over %90 of their graduates in this area don't go anywhere in the industry?

I normally ignore all that crap about the 'forgotten generation' as tbh the last generation didn't have it perfect and neither did the ones before that but don't you think there is a good amount of blame to be leveled at both the industry and at the universities too that keep encouraging people into these dead end courses when they know for a fact that job prospects at the end are very bad and made worse by the fact that they don't prepare them properly for it in the first place.

Also while I am all fired up why is the text entry box writing in green? Was it always this way? I cant tell but it is suddenly doing my head in as I'm finding it hard to read lol.

[skylebones]

Honestly, it should be based on your portfolio and ability first and foremost. Just because you have a degree doesn't mean you should be entitled to any type of job. And the two years minimum thing doesn't mean much if you have a good portfolio. That's to dissuade those that have no business applying anyways.

[catstyle]

nobody cares about games degrees.. unless you need a visa!

[Racer445]

it's because 3d education is so poor that this industry has no respect for degrees. it's sad to hear, but your university story is a common one, and it's a situation that will not get better until the higher ups stop scamming students with insane tuition fees and start hiring teachers that have actually worked in the games industry recently.

but yeah, portfolio is everything, and yours (http://www.artistinabox.co.uk/) needs some work.

[Bibendum]

First of all, just apply for the position anyway...

Secondly why SHOULD a degree be worth anything in any art field?

[sprunghunt]

Whats pissed me off is that I went to uni for 3 years for absolutely nothing seeing as uni taught me nothing and my degree is worthless as the industry actively avoid graduates.

The industry does not actively avoid graduates. At least half of the people I know in the industry have some kind of university level education. Everything from trained architects to people with degrees in English literature.

So secondary education is not useless. But it's not the thing that will determine if you get a job. Unsurprisingly this is the same for most art related fields.

[Striff]

95% of 3d "degrees" are a joke. You just need a pulse and $100k to drop on them. They are a complete waste of money.

A game company looking at you as an applicant will put 90% of their focus on your portfolio. If you have 2 people with similar portfolio's and performed the same on an art test then having a degree will help.

If you want to get a degree, go to a accredited university / college and major in something useful like computer science. If you want to be an artist, get a traditional art background from a real school. If you are not majoring in something engineering related IMO you are throwing your money away going to college now a days.

[Artist_in_a_box]

no i'm not saying my degree should entitle me to a job. I get why they don't want people who aren't any good. What annoys me is that when i was younger people told you to go to uni and promised you it would be worth something. Even the industry people i spoke to told me it was worth something, even if just to get someone to view the portfolio. Don't just lump me with the guys who think a degree entitles them anything. I am more frustrated that I was encouraged to get this degree and wasted good money and time getting it and realize how worthless it really is now i have left. I wish I had just stayed home and worked on portfolio as then at least I would be good in a specific area instead of ok in many.

[Striff]

I will give the example of me when I was looking into where I wanted to go to school. I wanted to go to school for 3d but I quickly realized that you can teach yourself everything you learn in these 3d schools with 1k in DVD training instead of dropping 120k+ on a silly education. The only downside of this is you might not make as many connection.

I worked my ass off in community college and transferred to UCSD (top 5 public school in the country) and majored in programming in the arts. I worked on my portfolio while I was there, taught myself many different programming languages, and talked with my professors. One professor liked my portfolio and hired me to work with his salaried employees on a game that the university is making as a technical artist. I am working on the project as I finish my degree.

So now when I am done with school in 3 months I will have a good degree from an amazing university, with tons of work experience, for around 40k. That's the approach most people should take IMO. Go to a real school while working on your portfolio on the side.

[slipsius]

Some places count your school years as experience. seems like more and more are. I mean, a minimum of 2 years experience for a junior role, without allowing school to count is a little rediculous, i think.

[Artist_in_a_box]

I didn't mean to start an argument btw and as I was frustrated probably haven't written my point very clearly, and I most certainly don't expect the world to owe me anything (in fact coming from a poor 'for uk poor' background I have had to work hard for everything I have). I just cant help but feel a little betrayed by all those who encouraged me to go to higher education.
My only saving grace is that I do have the skills to improve my portfolio and I am doing as much as I can but there are hell of a lot of others who left the art related courses without any skills (yet still have a degree on paper) and either have to start form the beginning or pick up where they left off and try to scratch a living.

It just completely sucks.

[slipsius]

Here's the thing. can you learn all the skills you need to get a job without going to school? yes. would you have gotten to where you are without it? Thats up to you. some people have the motivation to learn on their own. some dont. school can be great for some, as it pushes them to finish projects. some people dont need that push.

So, would you have had the motivation to keep going without the deadlines and marks and all that jazz?

[Striff]

I didn't mean to start an argument btw and as I was frustrated probably haven't written my point very clearly, and I most certainly don't expect the world to owe me anything (in fact coming from a poor 'for uk poor' background I have had to work hard for everything I have). I just cant help but feel a little betrayed by all those who encouraged me to go to higher education.
My only saving grace is that I do have the skills to improve my portfolio and I am doing as much as I can but there are hell of a lot of others who left the art related courses without any skills (yet still have a degree on paper) and either have to start form the beginning or pick up where they left off and try to scratch a living.

It just completely sucks.

Don't worry, you are not the only one. Higher Education now a days is becoming a joke. 60% of the people in college are just throwing their money away. It's a legal scam IMO.

[Ged]

What annoys me is that when i was younger people told you to go to uni and promised you it would be worth something.

I do think a lot of my parents generation really seemed to work that way. So its understandable that our elders encouraged us to do what they did and get qualifications. It wasnt worth the money or time for me either but it did teach me how to live on my own and how to get off my ass and work hard for what I want, even when my lecturers dont have the skills or time or resources to teach me.
University of Polycount FTW.

[Bibendum]

You go to school to get an education, not a degree. The biggest travesty is that people seem to have forgotten that and don't take their education seriously.

The reason degrees are more relevant in technical fields is because their standards are much less subjective, more easily measured, and most importantly they are usually fields where a portfolio cannot be provided, so they judge applicants on what little they have which is usually only "Where has this guy worked in the past, does he have any recommendations, where did he go to school"

The fact that people see it as a bad thing that the industry doesn't care where you went to school is somewhat depressing to me because I see it as a good thing: Even the self-trained can compete on par with everyone else if he can build a strong enough portfolio on his own, a luxury most other industries don't have because a degree is a barrier of entry.

[Artist_in_a_box]

University of Polycount FTW.

Amen to that

[Two Listen]

Having zero experience of my own, take this with a grain of salt.

I think a lot of companies put that there to weed out younger folks who think their college-project portfolios make them ready for anything. It is not necessarily a definite "Yes, you need to actually have this experience", it's mostly just to deter applicants who don't meet that requirement that might be reading - under the assumption that their skills are probably not what they're wanting, and so it will hopefully save them from having to wade through a sea of underskilled college grads (or hobbyists).

I'd say if you have the portfolio, if you have the skills, you should be putting in applications to such places regardless of whether or not you have the "field experience" they're looking for. You may be surprised.

[Justin Meisse]

It's not about respect for a degree it's about having confidence in your abilities - you should be applying to jobs that ask for 1-3 years experience, nobody is going to put a post up that says "no experience required".

[Artist_in_a_box]

The fact that people see it as a bad thing that the industry doesn't care where you went to school is somewhat depressing to me because I see it as a good thing: Even the self-trained can compete on par with everyone else if he can build a strong enough portfolio on his own, a luxury most other industries don't have because a degree is a barrier of entry.

I hadn't really looked at it from that perspective man but you do have a point. A degree shouldn't be a barrier as in this industry its the quality of work that matters not the piece of paper you have on your fridge but shouldn't a degree be a guarantee of at least a minimum of ability? My uni let lots of people resit more than once just so their figures looked better. Which in return has diluted the merit of the degree as now two guys with a 2:1 can have a massive gap in skill level which has made employers (in my opinion) distrustful of the degree itself as in truth it isn't a guarantee of anything other than they wasted 3 years of their life.

Also we do go to uni for an education not a degree, however at least in terms of game industry related courses the educational standard in the UK was really bad.We where taught the very basics which for the amount of cash and time we spent there was really not worth it. I wish I had had the guts to leave in first year tbh.

[Swizzle]

Nobody gives a shit about degrees. Portfolio is king.

[Justin Meisse]

Nobody gives a shit about degrees. Portfolio is king.

Portfolio is king but I've seen shits given about degrees

[Rick Stirling]

With 2 graduates of equalish portfolio skill and equal like-ability in the interview, I'd be more likely to hire the one who hangs around on CG Talk and Polycount and has worked on a mod than one that spent 3 years doing a university degree in games.

I've read hundreds of CVs and I've done dozens of interviews, and the level of quality of most (but certainly not all) of those courses is low. There are many students however who realise this and work hard to teach themselves what the course is lacking, and this is great - self motivation is a superb quality.

[Bibendum]

shouldn't a degree be a guarantee of at least a minimum of ability? For the student? Definitely.

For the employer? What's the point really when you can just demand a portfolio?

I disagree with the notion that degrees are worthless (*to employers) because the education is so poor, degrees are worthless because the quality of all of our work can be far more accurately demonstrated with a portfolio and an art test. Even if you went to a GOOD art school, even if ALL art schools were good and provided great education, everyone would still expect to see a portfolio.

[slipsius]

School teaches you tools. Skill is completely up to you, and how much YOU want to put into it.

[TeeJay]

I actually thing degrees are favoured by employers more than is suggested on here... at least in the UK anyway, I can't speak for the US.

Here's why;

I know 7 people who applied for jobs last year, 5 artists, a concept artist and an animator.

5 of those had been to uni, all had similar quality folios (a couple had slightly better than others). 4 of those people got jobs at UK companies straight out of uni with a degree, the other 3 (including the two 'self-taught') did not.

I would like to see the results of a poll on here from every UK resident who has gotten their first industry job in the last 1-2 years on whether they have a games/art related degree or not. I would wager that the large majority, if not all, are uni grads. Not industry vets or people who've been in for 4+ years, just recent grads/Juniors. The level of education on games courses here in the UK is seemingly improving rapidly, there's plenty of fine examples of work in the Hertfordshire Uni thread, and my Brother is currently on a college level games course whose syllabus has been greatly improved this year and from what I can see, the tutors seem pretty switched-on, and seem to know the modern industry fairly well.

I'm not saying a degree = job, of course it doesn't, just as 'no-degree' doesn't mean 'no job'. I just think employers actually favour degrees more than a lot of people on here seem to think.

Of course level of work and portfolio quality will ALWAYS be the prime reason for interest in a candidate, I think a degree is definitely looked upon as a good quality by employers, and I think too many people sling the 'Degrees are meaningless' thing around here far too often.

[sprunghunt]

A degree shouldn't be a barrier as in this industry its the quality of work that matters not the piece of paper you have on your fridge but shouldn't a degree be a guarantee of at least a minimum of ability?

This is why you'll see a lot of people recommend a fine arts degree or a computer science qualification. Because those degrees are usually a guarantee of a minimum amount of ability. Games degrees are just too new and too specific.

[pior]

So, did you apply already ?

[Mathew O]

I've had a good read through this thread as I'm going to be in exactly the same boat in a couple of months when it comes to applying.

I have been told by some indie devs and local games company employees around Sheffield that I socialise with that the only real thing they consider when they see that you have a degree is that you've learnt to manage your time. That seemed like pretty much it.

My university' standards are very low, you can get a first with very little effort if you're smart about it but hopefully this has occurred to me early enough that I can get a good portfolio ready come job application time...

Luckily I found Polycount so hopefully that'll help me...

[Artist_in_a_box]

irnoically mate im from rotherham haha

[Bibendum]

I would like to see the results of a poll on here from every UK resident who has gotten their first industry job in the last 1-2 years on whether they have a games/art related degree or not.That would be useless because it doesn't try to discern the impact of anything, just tries to form a correlation.

It's entirely likely and far more probable that the reason most people who get hired have degrees is because the most committed and determined artists are more likely to get degrees. Which says nothing about the actual value of the degree.

You're better off surveying employers and asking them how much of their hiring decision goes into whether or not their applicant has a degree.

Of course level of work and portfolio quality will ALWAYS be the prime reason for interest in a candidate, I think a degree is definitely looked upon as a good quality by employers, and I think too many people sling the 'Degrees are meaningless' thing around here far too often.Degrees might not be worthless but they have so little value they may as well just be a tie-breaker.

Also one of the often underspoken benefits of college, probably the biggest benefit really, is making contacts with people who will go on to be your future coworkers also, which has nothing to do with the degree but seriously helps your chances of getting a job.

[Artist_in_a_box]

i will definitely agree there. I met a few guys who where really inspiring and one guy in particular who I still speak to today.

[spacemonkey]

Artist_in_a_box, there's one truth. Does the stuff in your portfolio look like the stuff in current games? The best thing to do is to start to work on a plan to expand on your portfolio. I am sure it must be very frustrating but a degree only matters if you need a visa.


- for others, while you are doing your degree you need to keep pushing yourself outside of your school studies. If you don't need to work while studying make sure your spending plenty of that time working on your art.

Its a global competition for jobs.

Also consider that there has been a big shift away from large AAA developed games. Casual, Social or whatever you want to call them are here and making a killing.

If I was looking to get into games I would be focussed on the skills to work in the fastest growing sector of the games industry and not learning skills to work in the ever shrinking field.

The industry changes faster than a degree course can adapt too. Its been the message on polycount for years that traditional art skills should be the focus for everyone. They transcend 3d application/current techniques that can be learnt from training dvd's.

[Skillmister]

The majority of people in my degree are completely useless at 3d. Today was hand in day for 2 modules and it's laughable some of the work that appears. Now i'm by no means great but when you see characters that are basically a box with extrusions and turbosmoothed with a ms paint texture on, i can see why these degrees are worthless.

The thing is though this isn't the universitys fault, at least not here. We all have access to the same help, we all get told to use polycount and other forums, we all have lecturers available for help at all hours. But the mentality of people seems to be 'hurr i'll do a games degree, barely pass, and land my dream job' when it just isn't like that.

[passerby]

school is useless, unless you build up a good portfolio while at it, and really take advantage as much as possible for networking with people.

[Nizza_waaarg]

degree's can be really useful... for getting visa's in hard to reach countries. Beyond that they're a massive waste of time. So as erryone else has said, just go work on your folio, the degree might help if you want to work in the US tho ^_^

also, you apply yet?

[Ruz]

It's great to have 'BA' after your name but it takes a few years in the industry before you can add 'STARD' to the end of that.
Unis have always been a bit crap, you are expected to make use of the facilities , not to be held by the hand all the way through.

[l.croxton]

Coming from a University course of "computer games production" I can't see how anything I have produced for the Uni modules etc would be even worthy of a job. So now I am franticly trying to improve all my skills from 3d asset creation (modeling, texturing, optimisation etc) to level design etc. I have a look on here and see what everyone can do and there is no way I am near the quality of anyone on here. So in a way its humbling when I get given a first for my level design yet I come on here and it would be laughed off :P. So yeah unfortunatly people should see the degree as a way of saying "yeah I worked hard for 3 years + I have this awesome portfolio" and not the Uni giving the impression of "I got a first I am shit hot at this game stuff gimme the monies"

[Alismuffin]

I'm finding the same problem with my university. I had originally planned to teach myself but everyone told me to go to university. So I did. It was fun and interesting and I met some great people with similar interests, but the teachers for the most part were terrible. I taught myself anything I wanted to know online and as a result passed with great grades. Now what I do is not a specific course. It's a variety of animation, film and game development (Which I think is great because it really showed me a lot about other industries), but I am disappointed with the quality of the teachers.
I learnt 1000 times more watching one feng Zhu tutorial than I did from my "drawing" teacher the whole year.

The only reason I plan to keep going until I graduate is that it gives me a lot of motivation to actually get projects done, and it's pretty cool working around other people who do the same shit as you.

So Im glad I went to university, but disappointed in the quality.

In the meantime I'm upping my skills in the break so that maybe I'll actually be worth something when I graduate.

[marks]

I would like to see the results of a poll on here from every UK resident who has gotten their first industry job in the last 1-2 years on whether they have a games/art related degree or not. I would wager that the large majority, if not all, are uni grads.

I failed my first year. Then dropped out, freelanced for a year, then landed a gig.

[Jackablade]

degree's can be really useful... for getting visa's in hard to reach countries.
also, you apply yet?
And that there is a major caveat. Giving yourself an ability to head overseas for work without excessive complications for the new studio you're applying for is a pretty important consideration. Maybe not to the same degree in the UK, but here in Aus, folks like me with my games art diploma are stuck here while the industry burns to the ground around us while edumacated types like Nizza Waarg are able to escape to Canada or wherever else the work might be. Nizza has the added advantage of being an awesome artist, but that's beside my point.

Lousy or not, when the alternative is working ten years in the industry before the VISA jerks will consider you, I think the uni degree is far from a useless thing to have. I've toyed with the idea of going back to school and getting mine a few times.

[HAWK12HT]

Ah, I came here on the general froums to introduce myself to the community. and this post caught my eye as I have also noticed that job ad somewhere and many like it. Good examples by some members here. I am sharing my experience in UK and where the industry is heading.
In 2 years of job hunting I have came across recruiting agencies, they are there to set their business and get references off you. There are however good agencies too with nice people who actually try and help you cause if they get a best employee to company the more rep they get.

Degree in a any field in a long run helps as long as its a legit. Cause education and knowledge never goes to waste.

Call the companies direct, make appointment wiht HR manager or CEO and if possible walk in and ask what they are looking for and tell them what is different in you.

In UK only Kent, Hertfordshire, Bournemouth, Escape are the places with good rep within the industry. So are the prices nad yes they dont teach you much but the strong basics, from there onwrards its upto you how you push the limits in your work.

In my case I have ton load of freelance work experience ranging from directing a comercial to Navy contract, but here in UK I am working in sales cause Industry particularly in UK is more fixed on students coming from the institutes i mentioned above or if you have good word with employees in companies.

I have done 3 years doing a Multimedia degree than moved to UK got a degree in Internet Software Development and now im doing Product Design :D. So after working this hard and accquiring 3 degrees If i dont get a job I might shoot myself.

Why 3 Degrees you all might wonder why not Phd already :D. Here s why companies are looking for people with knowledge of east and west (so to speak), A person expert in Max.Maya or any other 3d app aint good enough+ other 2d packages like After effects and Photoshop, they also want someone who can work in Unity or UDK or Crysis have loads of programming knowledge too like all in one machine basically. This infact makes me angry and at same time motivates me to break these odds and become one man army :D I mean super 3D artist who have knowledge in vast areas of computing+ real world production.

And finally the obvious, economic crisis, where people want to invest in super human employees or dont hire at all.

[HAWK12HT]

oh and im still jobless :(, just working volunteer in Indie company.
and almost every day i walk on street dropping CV for any kind of work :). So my advice to anyone planning to be coming here in UK, come with an exit strategy cause its chaos down here.

[Fuse]

I'm a self taught character artist despite getting a degree in art school. My education has never been taken into consideration at any of my interviews.

Finishing school says nothing about your artistic ability, having a portfolio does.

[Artist_in_a_box]

A lot of mixed views on here. On a plus side since starting this thread I managed to get some sweet lighting sorted on my current proj :D.

To sum up my views at the moment.

Uni was a waste of time as relates to what it cost me. I made friends and got a very independent work ethic however that was more due to what they didn't teach rather than what they did. It was a case of 'i see this place is not going to help at all, I had better pull my socks up' and to be fair if I ever get into industry then ti will be down to this attitude. I did meet some people and do somethings I wouldn't have done otherwise but was it worth 26k+? hell no. And has ANY company been interested in my degree so far? Hell no.

This may change but at the moment it is a big fat no.

The job ad I mentioned originally really annoyed me because it was from an agency. What is infuriating about this ad is that they ask for 2 years experience in a media company however the role 'junior artist' is an entry level role, surely they are contradicting terms. Now I would see this normally as a means to stop berks applying for the role, as was mentioned above. However I know for a fact that the agency will take these requirements as gospel and no matter how I try to justify indie projects or Uni as valid experience they will not even submit me for the position. Whats worse is this is a junior TEMP role and they STILL demand 2 years experience. IMO that is pure arrogance, and it annoyed me so much I ended up ranting on here. I did apply for the job btw but I seriously doubt they will submit the application.

Now as for ME at the moment. I am not shocked I am not in the industry yet. I left uni knowing I was not good enough and still aren't. Its just a shame you gotta earn a buck otherwise I would work 24/7. I do not blame companies for not hiring me or people like me. (I DO blame them for not even having an automated refusal email but that's another thread for another day ;P)

At the end of the day I just have to keep working and hope that I get to where I want to be. It DOES feel unfair when you see other people younger that are way better due to actually having tutors that actually taught them something or starting form a younger age but THAT is just life and really after I've gotten over my tantrum all the power to them.

I think what bugs me most is that I am 24. I have worked all my life (from being 16) and have tried really hard at all my studies and due to the studies themselves being crap I have left uni and realized that graduation was the starting pistol not the finish line. I have a long way to go and I feel like I have not accomplished anything in my life and it as there is no visible light at the end of the tunnel it is kind of hard to get up every morning. I am only 24 but it feels like 30 is breathing down my neck and I am still living like a 17 year old at my parents house.

I know, bring on the violins.

To get myself out of the funk I am joining the Territorial Army soon to try my hand at something totally new, and hopefully give me something achievable to work towards.

Thanks for posting on the thread and thanks for not hating me. After writing it I realized how whiny it sounded and I do resent that a bit.

Also to the guy who was talking about not expecting uni to hold your hand. I totally resent the implication as I have worked my ass off for everything I have had in life since I was 16. There ARE a lot of people out there who think they should be guided through life but I am not one of them and uni most definitely did not hold my hand.


Later

[HAWK12HT]

Umm cheer up m8, dont let go. What you are going through i can relate to it and i feel bad too about the situation. The main thing to remeber is that you invested your time and energy for geting a degree in this field, just hold firm to your line and dont let go and keep working.
All i can give you is my example that depite being out of work I am holding firm to getting into the industry and not planning to change my career completly.
Patience my friend, Patience.

[TortillaChips]

Out of interest, was Teeside really that bad? I remember narrowing down my choices and ended up with Staffordshire and Teeside, I sided with staffs for a couple of reasons such as the game engine stuff but I always thought Teeside was more art orientated, especially as it's a BA whereas Staffs is a BSc.

[Delerium]

Its nothing new that studios list that that they want people with X years experience, simply because of weeding out people that are not up to par anyway with a mediocre portfolio, harsh but true.
If you have no experience but a good portfolio, that requirement is not "valid" and you will get the job anyway without any experience. Simple as that.

[Skillmister]

Out of interest, was Teeside really that bad? I remember narrowing down my choices and ended up with Staffordshire and Teeside, I sided with staffs for a couple of reasons such as the game engine stuff but I always thought Teeside was more art orientated, especially as it's a BA whereas Staffs is a BSc.

That's what put me off teeside. They had fantastic labs and facilities but the course itself was almost all traditional art.

[KartoonHead]

My mate has been doing a game develpment degree for almost 2 years now and I've been self-teaching for 6 months whilst doing my own audio sciences degree, and I'm miles ahead of him. His degree seems like a bit of a joke tbh.

Also, unrelated; you should drop that monitor from your portfolio, it's too basic. On the other hand your weapons look great! Just keep making stuff at that level of quality/complexity to replace the other stuff you have on there and you're onto a winner.

[Rhinokey]

Call the companies direct, make appointment wiht HR manager or CEO and if possible walk in and ask what they are looking for and tell them what is different in you.



things must be different over there.. Here you do not just walk into game companys. Thres a whole thread about it burried some where and there was pretty much 2 sides of the argument that boiled down to

People who are in the industry who say "never never just show up asking for work"

and people who have never worked in the game industry saying "of course you can just show up and ask for work!"

Also here you are not likely to just call a hr guy or ceo and get an apointment to walk in and talk.

[SHEPEIRO]

i agree with rhinokey... yeah be bold but... you need some sort of recognition... that can be just yeah i see him posting on PC and he seams like a good artist/someone i want to work with but cold calling will get you nowhere.

being good to work with is one of the most important things... you could have the most amazing portfolio but would people want to possibly work in close proximity and for long hours with a complete twat. NO...

and this is why the UNI of polycount is way better than physical schools for the most... becuase interacting with the people of polycount you are interacting with alot of industry, while unis seam to be very disconnected with it...no matter what most schools say...

[ZacD]

You should always ignore "2 years experience" required, its to deter people that have no experience in 3d from applying for the job. If your portfolio is strong, it doesn't matter.

[Gestalt]

I didn't go to university and feel comfortable with my abilities, but then again I haven't been hired anywhere (but then again I haven't really applied anywhere so I guess I can't be used for the tally).

Learning really is the easy part, I mean you hardly even need to be motivated anymore with all of the great resources and services, and all of the software you'd need is readily available for the random nobody like me. Plop yourself in front of the computer and hit the play button and you can get some of the best, most up-to-date 'lectures' around.

I think it's understandable that people don't hire based on education because at the end of the day it really doesn't matter how you know what you know. What you can do will show if you know what you need to know for the job.

As far as the motivation and self-discipline thing, universities will shepherd you along a path, sure, but is that path industry standard enough to get you a job?

Unfortunately given the way things currently are it's probably not; there isn't a standard and things progress so incredibly fast that having a relevant, standard curriculum would be difficult. The things you learn and make in uni probably won't carry over and preserve well, likely making the oodles of money amount to little more than the diploma paper and time in the academia snuggy.

This is why I didn't go and why I suggest that other people seriously reconsider if what they want to do (and go for) is game art (going for other things is fine if you have the means; other degrees are great for a fallback and such things as 'getting a visa').

Pretty much what I've generally seen is that people who graduate and end up spending about half a year or more getting up to speed and putting together a decent portfolio on their own. At that point it's up to the individual, same as if they hadn't gone to uni, as well as what's available for jobs. Networking in college could certainly be helpful though.

[Rick_D]

they wanted a minimum of 2 years work experience in a media company.

This is put on there to discourage these kind of guys:

My university was god awful, by the end of it most of the guys who passed still didn't know the very basics, and I mean basic. A few guys didn't even know how to apply a texture

If your portfolio is good, and you're confident you can do the job, then you apply, simple as that. The "2 years" deal is purely to put off people who aren't confident enough in themselves.

At the risk of sounding like a complete child

wipe up your tears, clean your bum bum, and apply.

also uk game industry is shit. enjoy making lego games or racing games.

[Rick Stirling]

also uk game industry is shit. enjoy making lego games or racing games.

Or Batman or GTA.

[Del]

Or Batman or GTA.

~ or Devil May Cry, or Brink

[ZacD]

~ or Devil May Cry, or Brink

Or Fable 1-3

[Mathew O]

Homefront, Ryse and Crysis..

[Mr Bear]

Or Fable 1-3

Or The Total War series.

[ZacD]

Crysis..

Crysis was released in 2007, Crytek UK was bought/founded in 2009, Crytek (the main studio that gave us the Cyrisis games) is based in Germany, the uk studio DID do the multiplayer dev for Crysis 2 though.

[Mathew O]

Yeah I was hoping that developing the multiplayer content was enough to justify typing Crysis :P

[HAWK12HT]

Or the Indie game "ZONE:The Battle Ground" currently in development.

Originally Posted by Rick_D http://www.polycount.com/forum/images/greenfox/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1485133#post1485133)

also uk game industry is shit. enjoy making lego games or racing games.

[Rick_D]

brink lol

[Rick_D]

don't get me wrong, i was just trolling when i said UK videogame scene was shit, but you can't put brink out there as an example of british success.

[Del]

don't get me wrong, i was just trolling when i said UK videogame scene was shit, but you can't put brink out there as an example of british success.

~ Meh. I like to think it was probably exciting to work on. More exciting than lego games.

[Mathew O]

I'd have given a finger (from my left hand, not my right) to have worked on the Brink art team, that game is so sexy.

[JamesClarke]

I consider my degree to be something that will compliment my portfolio not the other way around. I'm a second year University student and I don't regret a thing. In terms of what I expected to get out of University it has been exactly what I expected, simply, you get out out of it what you put in. The people who aren't truely interested or committed end up with bad grades and bad work, the people who really want it get good grades and decent work since most of it is independent learning.

I don't expect to land a job straight after graduating. I expect to probably bum around for a while working my ass off making a decent portfolio then applying for jobs. Either way, if my degree does turn out to be worthless Uni has been one hell of an awesome life experience, best time of my life! :D

[TeeJay]

also uk game industry is shit. enjoy making lego games or racing games.

:D

Or This! (http://www.blitzgames.com/)

[slipsius]

has anyone here actually played the lego games? they are actually A LOT of fun.... and you can put way more time into them than most AAA games now adays..

[imyj]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Qw-5YEGc0_0/Tp7C48CcozI/AAAAAAAAARw/IqwStegeCww/s400/290630154_zIor7fYv_c.jpg

I was going to write a huge post about the UK games industry and university but this image sums it up perfectly.

Students who land jobs after graduating are the ones who are proactive outside of university. I've been there, and so have plenty of other people I know / work with. They're the ones with Mod experience, freelance work, and stuff they just did for fun. They don't rely on uni grades and coursework to get them a job. More often than not, I've found that the people interviewing us arty types are veterans who didn't go to college or uni and therefore they just focus on the visuals. They'll look at your art first and foremost and if they consider your art to be good then they'll look at the CV.

[JamesClarke]

has anyone here actually played the lego games? they are actually A LOT of fun.... and you can put way more time into them than most AAA games now adays..

Very true, I actually got the pleasure to work in the developers studio for a week. They're very well made and entertaining games.

[TortillaChips]

has anyone here actually played the lego games? they are actually A LOT of fun.... and you can put way more time into them than most AAA games now adays..

My girlfriend loves them, the indiana and harry potter ones. I can't get into them though, I've played a bit of one, and thats enough for me. I've gotta help her with the jumps though.

[Brendan]

enjoy making lego games or racing games.

If the publishers would get their shit together I'd be flying over to make a lego racing game. Seriously, that game was fantastic.

Also, I take it you guys are trolling when you're saying $100k for a degree. I just finished and I think it ended up at $25k (at most).

[teaandcigarettes]

Also, I take it you guys are trolling when you're saying $100k for a degree. I just finished and I think it ended up at $25k (at most).

Correct me if I wrong, but $100k might be true for the US. I've always been under the impression that higher education is pretty expenisve there.

That said, my degree will cost me about £10k here in the UK. I guess I'm pretty lucky, since I enrolled before they raised the fees to £9k per year.

[poopipe]

Ner :p mine only cost £3120

you have youth on your side though :(


As someone who's been in a position of influence regarding employing new people many times i value the capacity to slot into a team above almost any other trait. Its a production line at the end of the day and i don't care how good you are, if you can't show me you're capable of following instructions and showing concern for the poor bugger who's next down the line im not interested. sadly having a degree doesn't prove anything in that regard and really neither does a portfolio full of shiny models done on your own time.

Employing a graduate is high risk, mistakes cost money and inexperienced people generally make more mistakes than experienced people.

Don't let that put you off applying, it just means that a rejection isn't necessarily a reflection of your ability as an artist.

[Rick_D]

has anyone here actually played the lego games? they are actually A LOT of fun.... and you can put way more time into them than most AAA games now adays..

i love them. it's a direction i'd like to see more games go in (ever play the coop lara croft game?), and i think it's unfair to class them as not AAA, AAA is almost a buzzword for "brown shooter" these days.

[LRoy]

semi-relevant.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-6-stupidest-video-game-school-commercials/

[SnakeDoctor]

LRoy I just searched this thread to submit that exact same link.


This really does seem the normal mentality with people at my school.

Be A Game Designer - YouTube

[Striff]

Correct me if I wrong, but $100k might be true for the US. I've always been under the impression that higher education is pretty expenisve there.

That said, my degree will cost me about £10k here in the UK. I guess I'm pretty lucky, since I enrolled before they raised the fees to £9k per year.

Here in the united states we get completely ripped off. I go to a public school in California and just in tuition I pay around $14k a year. That does not include housing, books, food, etc. And that is relevantly cheap. Tuition has gone up about 60% since I started school 3 years ago too. Places like the art institute are 25k a year. Its crazy. If you ask me, they're an elaborate corporate scam to funnel as many Government Pell grants and guaranteed loans out of students as they can and leave the students with the bill.

[Mathew O]

British university fees have jumped for students starting September 2012 from the $5000 per annum that I'm paying to $15,000 per annum. So apparently more students are starting to look at studying in America now that the prices are getting closer.

Poor guys

[Wesley]

I still think UK students have a better deal in terms of repayment options than what's available in America.

[crazyfool]

UK tuition fees are a joke, I foresee idiocracy!!!!!

[HAWK12HT]

but compared to national students in UK, International students pay more given the fact that no funding body supports them and foreign students mostly are self funded. dont bring getting the visa issue here :D thats a whole different topic. Neways what the national students can do is open up accounts in South Asian banks, pounds converted to other currencies= more bling than when it comes to going to uni you just pay unis one off £10k without no interest or loan tension that will chase u till your old age. Hope you get the picture :D

[HAWK12HT]

Im talking about having ur assets outside of UK just like many others have assets in UK but they dont live here. :D. "EXIT Strategy" :D

[Rick_D]

maybe if less people did pointless degress that got them jobs ding something other than "events management" or estate agency positions then it'd be worth the tax payer handing over money for dickheads to doss away 5 years with partying and drug abuse.

[marks]

Clearly someone resents not getting the full uni experience in the uk ;)

[Wesley]

maybe if less people did pointless degress that got them jobs ding something other than "events management" or estate agency positions then it'd be worth the tax payer handing over money for dickheads to doss away 5 years with partying and drug abuse.

You're making generalised statements about both students and tax payers here.

You're also implying certain career options are less worthwhile than others? Which is ironic because I've met plenty of folk who think anything to do with games, playing or making, is worthless.

[rolfness]

You're making generalised statements about both students and tax payers here.

You're also implying certain career options are less worthwhile than others? Which is ironic because I've met plenty of folk who think anything to do with games, playing or making, is worthless.

Well if you look at skilled workers from overseas over here you will see that the UK has not been self sufficient for quite a long time. That does raise questions about why its the way it is. Healthcare alone the NHS in the UK has vast armies of workers from outside the UK.

[Wesley]

In terms of the UK being self-sufficient via its "own" population? Yeah not for a long time. Which is why people going off to uni to do events management isn't the cause of any shortcomings the UK faces.

[rolfness]

It is the cause and I say that because the government isnt promoting or providing incentives for people to work in those industries that import labour. And really its in the best interests of the government to do this because there is a trend amongst foreign workers to save and send their earning overseas. If those jobs were populated by locals that disposable income is saved and spent within the UK economy and that is of utmost importance.

[Lazerus Reborn]

Bitching~

I'll have a computer sciences degree in 18 month's, the courses 3D unit is a joke, so is the multimedia unit. I have taught more than the teacher has, literally walked around person to person telling them the basic tools and functions in 3ds max since he doesn't actually know. He has taught "theoretical modelling" for 9 years and it can be applied to any program, but he still doesn't know how to use max. Bad times when you paying £3500 towards his pay slip. The other three units web dev, databases, Obj oriented C++, are pretty good and worth most of the grade so not too bad.

PC Uni helped ton's

Bitch over~

So 18 months to get my portfolio in together then?

Also while this is up. Masters, Worth it or not?

[Rick_D]

exactly my point, put more eloquently.

i left the uk because the work is shit and there were better opportunities abroad. imagine if i had gone to university and cost the tax pying public thousands of pounds, only to leave straight away and start paying taxes to somewhere else.

i'm not suggesting that there is less value in being a doctor or a nurse or a teacher than there is being an estate agent or an events coordinator.. oh wait back the fuck up yes i am. unless you dreamt about managing events since your first birthday party, looking over the table at a collection of poorly arranged paper plates and unevenly melted candles, knives and forks placed incorrectly, a clown performing an act whereby he apparently makes aborted balloon animals for children who are neither interested or conscious.. the disgust showing in your face as you blow out candles on a cake that doesn't even have your age written on it in marzipan, imaginary knives fly from your eyes and penetrate your mother for her callousness in birthing this stillborn fetus of a birthday party. on that day, you knew that you would grow up and become... EVENTS MANAGEMENT MAN!

fuck that. video games took me out of the ghetto and a life of crime and drugs lol. only people called Esther and Reginald manage events and they can go fuck themselves.

[Frankie]

I'm the opposite of Rick, video games took me out of middle class into a life of crime and drugs.

[rolfness]

fuck that. video games took me out of the ghetto and a life of crime and drugs lol. only people called Esther and Reginald manage events and they can go fuck themselves.

bwaahahahah

[Rick_D]

I'm the opposite of Rick, video games took me out of middle class into a life of crime and drugs.

haha, high five

[Skillmister]

Also while this is up. Masters, Worth it or not?


I'm certainly not doing one. A year spent doing up my portfolio will be far more valuable in my opinion.

[Wesley]

My friend, who just recently got into the industry, spent a year doing his masters and building up his portfolio. Worked quite well for him.

[Rick_D]

My friend, who just recently got into the industry, spent a year doing his masters and building up his portfolio. Worked quite well for him.


this is the important part. the only reason to get a degree is to make it easier to go to the USA for work. and the number that actually manage it are about the same as those who just have a good portfolio and make a name for themselves.