"Unpaid crunch deserves no sympathy"

[Baj Singh]

http://www.develop-online.net/news/38317/Unpaid-crunch-deserves-no-sympathy-Pachter

Extremely "insightful" comments such as:

“If your complaint is you worked overtime and didn’t get paid for it, find another profession".

“I just don’t have a whole lot of sympathy for people who say ‘I worked for such-and-such, and I didn’t get paid, and that’s not fair”.

“The [Team Bondi staff] were asked to work crazy hours, I don’t know anybody in game development who calls it a 9-5 job,” Pachter said.
“So that [complaint] doesn’t really resonate with me.”

[Ace-Angel]

Management perspective, what do you expect?

[dfacto]

Surely, if the perception of the games industry is that overtime is pretty much going to happen then there must be a fundamental flaw in the system that a lot of games companies aren't catching on to? Either that or a lot of bad scheduling decisions/feature creep...

Or it's a way to get free work out of people. More product at lower cost.

[Ark]

People actually take this guy on? He does a part over at Gametrailers and the amount of crap he speaks is unbelievable!

[Mark Dygert]

Why is this so shocking, how he sees it is how most studio heads see it.

Simple pay people shitty so they can only afford a crowded dump with half a dozen other neck-beards. Also because you pay them so little they can't afford a decent machine at home to actually work on the things they would want to work on and can't land a job somewhere else.

That way they never want to go home...

[LRoy]

You get to work on video games all day, what are you complaining about?

Also I think we need to reuse that sound effect from level 2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXul4ENEYOA

[Kot_Leopold]

I watched his latest episode on GameTrailers just a couple days ago where he talks about this. No comments, seriously.

For those of you who hasn't seen it yet, here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIjz25WkXQA

[Ninjas]

Contract work may be feast or famine, but at least you get paid for the work you do.

My solution? Go indie.

[JacqueChoi]

meh.

Outsiders thinking they know what it's like to work in games.


His opinion shouldn't come as a shock.


Most people think we go into work, play games all day, and miraculously the game is somehow finished in 3 years.

[LRoy]

Sounded like his argument is you don't need unions to protect people who make 100k a year.

[ebagg]

From all I've seen or read of Pachter, he just seems like an 'educated guesser', who's on the outside looking into the games industry and that leads to a lot of his predictions and insights being nothing but bullshit. You'll routinely hear him refer to successful games that surprised him with their success. No one should put any stock in his opinions.

[Justin Meisse]

Contract work may be feast or famine, but at least you get paid for the work you do.

My solution? Go indie.

I hear this go indie suggestion alot - isn't the same as starting your own small business which would mean you should have enough money on hand to survive without pay for a few years? (Maybe we need another thread to discuss this - I've got the cash on hand to go a year without pay and it doesn't seem like enough)

[Hugh]

I watched his latest episode on GameTrailers just a couple days ago where he talks about this. No comments, seriously.

For those of you who hasn't seen it yet, here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIjz25WkXQA

who actually makes 60k a year or more. Is anyone on this forum willing to let us know if they do. Because I always hear its about 20-30k a year from everybody I speak to and willing to talk about pay.Regardless of the yearly pay averages that are released.

[Justin Meisse]

oh yeah, lets boycott gametrailers until they remove the pach-attack segment

[Frankie]

I hear this go indie suggestion alot - isn't the same as starting your own small business which would mean you should have enough money on hand to survive without pay for a few years? (Maybe we need another thread to discuss this - I've got the cash on hand to go a year without pay and it doesn't seem like enough)

Actually I'd be really interested to know more too.

[Ganemi]

who actually makes 60k a year or more. Is anyone on this forum willing to let us know if they do. Because I always hear its about 20-30k a year from everybody I speak to and willing to talk about pay.Regardless of the yearly pay averages that are released.

Depends on where you live. That's very possible in someplace like CA because it's such an expensive place to live.

A studio can run you up to 1000, these days, which comes out to 12k a month.

Go figure.

[Autocon]

Contract work may be feast or famine, but at least you get paid for the work you do.

My solution? Go indie.

Contract work will net you the exact amount of pay for the hours you work, nothing more nothing less depending on how the game dose. If it is a mega hit and tons of money is made you don't see a dime.

Salary employees will not be paid overtime but will get bonuses/royalties for the game they worked on. These generally are to make up for the fact of the loss of overtime pay and from the people I have talked with far out weigh what they would make from overtime.


If your working at a studio and not in either of those two categories you need to find a new job because you are being taken advantage of.

[Ryan Smith]

Work to live... don't live to work.

that's my motto.

[Ghostscape]

who actually makes 60k a year or more. Is anyone on this forum willing to let us know if they do. Because I always hear its about 20-30k a year from everybody I speak to and willing to talk about pay.Regardless of the yearly pay averages that are released.

20-30k a year is way below industry standard if we're talking USD.

http://gamedeveloper.texterity.com/gamedeveloper/fall2011cg#pg27

44k is the average for <3 years for an artist.

[Calabi]

From all I've seen or read of Pachter, he just seems like an 'educated guesser', who's on the outside looking into the games industry and that leads to a lot of his predictions and insights being nothing but bullshit. You'll routinely hear him refer to successful games that surprised him with their success. No one should put any stock in his opinions.

He's supposed to be an analyst or something isnt he? He's paid to predict those sort of things.

It makes me laugh how people like that can get well paid jobs. Corporate nonsense, pretend like you know what you are doing and its easy.

These kind of tactics arent going to pay of in the long run. Even if the workers dont rebel.

[Justin Meisse]

Contract work will net you the exact amount of pay for the hours you work, nothing more nothing less depending on how the game dose. If it is a mega hit and tons of money is made you don't see a dime.

Salary employees will not be paid overtime but will get bonuses/royalties for the game they worked on. These generally are to make up for the fact of the loss of overtime pay and from the people I have talked with far out weigh what they would make from overtime.


If your working at a studio and not in either of those two categories you need to find a new job because you are being taken advantage of.

EA canceled all bonuses a few months before the launch of Warhammer - regardless on how you view the ultimate success of the game it did have a very good preorder run (broke EA records) and launched very well. They also promised bonuses on high metacritic scores but canceled that as well, we launched in the high 80's-90's.

I don't hold a grudge, there was a series of shitty events that cost EA a bunch of money and then the economy took a nose dive - but don't operate under the assumption that bonuses are guaranteed, that's why they're called a bonus.

20-30k a year is way below industry standard if we're talking USD.

http://gamedeveloper.texterity.com/gamedeveloper/fall2011cg#pg27

44k is the average for <3 years for an artist.

yeah, double that number - 40-60k a year

[Jeremy Wright]

Work to live... don't live to work.

that's my motto.

Fucking right. My Dad has always said this, and I quote it, too.

[JasonLavoie]

Very happy someone else got frustrated because of what he said, I raged on facebook about this because I'm not cool and have no friends to talk to :(

[flaagan]

It's shit like this that has pretty much made me one of the people I'd never thought I'd become... someone who worked in the game industry, got burned, and until shit like this gets sorted is in no rush to go jumping back in.

I make more as a buyer for a small tech company than I did working as an fx artist. I definitely miss working on games for a job, but I don't miss the kind of crap work ethic the game industry is full-steaming itself towards / through. I still can't believe the kind of comments / fake grief I got from a few coworkers about having time-consuming projects outside of my job.

[glottis8]

what you doing in facebook!? google+ is where the cool kids from polycount hang out now!

[teaandcigarettes]

Ding ding ding, Pach proves again that he's an enormous douche.

There used to be a YouTube compilation of the most idiotic comments that he made, but I can't seem to find it now.

[JacqueChoi]

who actually makes 60k a year or more. Is anyone on this forum willing to let us know if they do. Because I always hear its about 20-30k a year from everybody I speak to and willing to talk about pay.Regardless of the yearly pay averages that are released.

60k ia around what an intermediate will be making in Montreal.

30k is roughly what an Entry Level will be making in Montreal.


20k is Minimum wage.

$9.65/h
40 Hours a week = $386.00
52 Weeks = $20,072


I would hope you're making more than minimum wage.

[Geezus]

The places that I have worked usually offer free drinks, free/subsidized food, very flexible hours, relaxed/friendly/creative work environment, mounds of leisure activities, and much more. If the place you work offers even just a few of these things, yes, you should consider yourself lucky, and no, you are not doing "unpaid work". Your company has already paid it forward by offering you these benefits.

Should you be asked to do an insane/unhealthy amount of work for a long period of time? Absolutely not. Where does that line get drawn? I'm not sure. I do know that complaining about 1 to 2 months of crunch, at most, once a year, whilst enjoying said benefits, is just silly.

/twocents

[Ghostscape]

The places that I have worked usually offer free drinks, free/subsidized food, very flexible hours, relaxed/friendly/creative work environment, mounds of leisure activities, and much more. If the place you work offers even just a few of these things, yes, you should consider yourself lucky, and no, you are not doing "unpaid work". Your company has already paid it forward by offering you these benefits.

Should you be asked to do an insane/unhealthy amount of work for a long period of time? Absolutely not. Where does that line get drawn? I'm not sure. I do know that complaining about 1 to 2 months of crunch, at most, once a year, whilst enjoying said benefits, is just silly.

/twocents

1-2 months of crunch in a year is not that bad, but nobody is complaining about 1-2 months of crunch, they are complaining about significantly more than that.

e: Pachter, as an analyst, is essentially the financial sector equivalent of the 'enthusiast press' and is buying the regular line that gamers hear about the game industry - the fact that he admits to being aware of the Team Bondi scandal, and simultaneously says 'they're going to make big bonuses' and 'overtime is expected' while knowing that many of the former employees left due to the overtime and while stating that 'unrelenting overtime is bad' should be a clear indicator that he has his head up his ass.

[Geezus]

1-2 months of crunch in a year is not that bad, but nobody is complaining about 1-2 months of crunch, they complaining about significantly more than that.

Aye, the stories that I have heard of the "death march" crunches are irresponsible and unfair. On the flip side, I've also heard/seen many developers complain about the smallest of crunches. Crunch happens. The majority of us knew this getting into this industry. Though, every situation is different.

I'm "lucky" in the fact that the worst crunch I went through was 2 months straight, 10-12 hour days, vacation lockout, weekends and all. That was some bullshit. :)

[Justin Meisse]

The places that I have worked usually offer free drinks, free/subsidized food, very flexible hours, relaxed/friendly/creative work environment, mounds of leisure activities, and much more. If the place you work offers even just a few of these things, yes, you should consider yourself lucky, and no, you are not doing "unpaid work". Your company has already paid it forward by offering you these benefits.


I'm pretty sure the free soda, food and trips to the movies is costing the studio waaaaay less than overtime/bonus pay.

[xvampire]

why he has beard in this episode?
because it will get more viral than his usual pach attack. :p

what makes people pissed is he being insensitive and generalizing many stuff there. >_>


I believe many people got misinformed, naive, never realize that he/she underpaid, or overwork without realizing it. but that doesn't give Pach a right to tell those guys to work somewhere else like (automobile?) or something.
thats real douche.

[Geezus]

I'm pretty sure the free soda, food and trips to the movies is costing the studio waaaaay less than overtime/bonus pay.

I agree.

Though, I was shocked to learn that the free sodas at the last studio I worked at was costing the studio 60k a year. We loved ourselves some soder. :)

Overtime paid, if hourly, is a must. Bonuses are a leisure, never a guarantee. It is shitty when knowledge is dropped that the higher ups pack their wallets while the grunts work the hours and sweat the blood, but... them is the breaks, in any industry.

edit:
I don't know anything about this guy. If what has been said here is true, and he has never worked a day in development, then yeah, he needs to stop talking now.

[Ghostscape]

Aye, the stories that I have heard of the "death march" crunches are irresponsible and unfair. On the flip side, I've also heard/seen many developers complain about the smallest of crunches. Crunch happens. The majority of us knew this getting into this industry. Though, every situation is different.

I'm "lucky" in the fact that the worst crunch I went through was 2 months straight, 10-12 hour days, vacation lockout, weekends and all. That was some bullshit. :)

I've had relatively little crunch compared to a number of my fellow employees by virtue of the projects I've worked on and my position on them, studio staffing desires, etc, but I don't project my personal experiences onto the industry at large. Crunch happens, but there is a marked difference between 60-80 hour weeks for 1-2 months and 60-80 hour weeks for 2-3 months, and it's fucking inhuman to expect 60-80 hour weeks for 3+ months.

Excessive crunch is always, without exception, the fault of poor project management and planning, not the employee working.

Conversely, I've known many people who have had to crunch more than I, with more family and financial responsibilities than I, so I'm not going to sit back and tell them to stand up for their rights and walk out/etc, when I'm not in the same boat, I find that hypocritical.

Finally, to get back to the "Pachter is a tool" bit - the fact that he says "putting bolts on cars all day" is an hourly job, but making videogames is not, when a significant part of Game Art is effectively "putting [crates] on [levels] all day" further underlines his misunderstandings about the industry at large.

e: to clarify, I have no personal complaints about my job (at least not regarding any of these issues:)). Rather, I do not feel this entitles me to belittle or undermine or disregard other people's complaints about their job, or makes theirs less valid in any way.

[Minos]

Thread's title should be "Michael Patcher deserves no sympathy" :(

I can't believe that in 2011 people still take this douchebag seriously.

[Fuse]

I think there were a couple of misguided assumptions and misinformation but I think he covered the bases pretty objectively.

All he said was that we shouldn't put all the blame on one person, unions are retarded and we shouldn't expect hourly ot pay.

I think he means well and while he seemed insensitive, it's a kind of answer that's hard to get right in a few minutes. Someone will ultimately get their feelings hurt because this subject has been discussed at length and is a very sensitive issue.

He never said death marches are ok. Despite smelling like a typical Rockstar problem it seems that this situation is somewhat unique to team Bondi.

Let's all calm down.

[Ninjas]

I hear this go indie suggestion alot - isn't the same as starting your own small business which would mean you should have enough money on hand to survive without pay for a few years? (Maybe we need another thread to discuss this - I've got the cash on hand to go a year without pay and it doesn't seem like enough)

Good idea! I will make a thread about it...

[Ace-Angel]

I would say we're very calm, more then anything, it's when Management is the one rushing all over the place to get people fired and cut corners as soon something on the horizon looks iffy is the problem, and doesn't take responsibility for their poor management skills.

I just don't understand why poor management is such an issue in the game industry. In places like WETA, they basically force your organize your work, so everyone knows which station worked on what during what time on which day and which revision of the file to see.

I'll be darn lucky if any of my friends who supposedly work at big league companies has at least 5 revisions of the scene they were working the same week. It's almost as if bad habits are allowed to roam the fields of gaming scene for no reason other then 'meh, who cares', until said person make lead, and rushes everything because they were too busy drinking koolaid.

[pior]

You gotta admit, Pach is good at explaining to dumb gamers how Gamestop makes money, and skilled at predicting the price and launch date of the next Nintendo console. What a useless douche.

Yeah ... this episode managed to prove that he is both extremely biased and totally misinformed. Goatee fail! I wonder if there will be a follow up on this. The guy just proved that he has no knowledge of the field whatsoever ...

[kaze369]

I would say we're very calm, more then anything, it's when Management is the one rushing all over the place to get people fired and cut corners as soon something on the horizon looks iffy is the problem, and doesn't take responsibility for their poor management skills.

I just don't understand why poor management is such an issue in the game industry. In places like WETA, they basically force your organize your work, so everyone knows which station worked on what during what time on which day and which revision of the file to see.

I'll be darn lucky if any of my friends who supposedly work at big league companies has at least 5 revisions of the scene they were working the same week. It's almost as if bad habits are allowed to roam the fields of gaming scene for no reason other then 'meh, who cares', until said person make lead, and rushes everything because they were too busy drinking koolaid.

You would think after a few years the game industry would be able to tackle the issue of poor management. It's a little embaressing that a bunch of nerds and geeks that can probably do complex math in their heads can some how not make good decisions on time management.

[DeeKei]

EA canceled all bonuses a few months before the launch of Warhammer - regardless on how you view the ultimate success of the game it did have a very good preorder run (broke EA records) and launched very well. They also promised bonuses on high metacritic scores but canceled that as well, we launched in the high 80's-90's.

I don't hold a grudge, there was a series of shitty events that cost EA a bunch of money and then the economy took a nose dive - but don't operate under the assumption that bonuses are guaranteed, that's why they're called a bonus.



yeah, double that number - 40-60k a year


I think I heard something about that. It's a while ago but there waas this blog post about ealouse or something about questionable practices in the mythic studio.

[Kwramm]

I almost spit my coffee on my monitor... free drinks and food?????? gee thanks! I have better drinks and better and healthier food at home than can be found in most studios.

Call me paranoid, but all these "OMG WE HAVE FREE DRINKS!" studios always seem suspect to me. I mean yeah free drinks are nice, but what's the fuzz? Wouldn't it be better to advertise "OMG WE HAVE LITTLE CRUNCH AND PAID OVERTIME"! instead? But guess what, free drinks is all they have. Free drinks my ***. Give me a proper working environment and treat your staff like human beings. Free drinks, games room, etc are just icing on the cake but don't make up if the basics aren't there.

(now this doesn't apply to my current employer. I'm quite happy here, despite the lack of free drinks)

[Ace-Angel]

I would rather get paid to buy my own drink. I know what is best for my body, coffee and coke ain't it.

[greevar]

I would rather get paid to buy my own drink. I know what is best for my body, coffee and coke ain't it.

Water, milk, or 100% juice please!

[Kot_Leopold]

Water, milk, or 100% juice please!
That is me 200%. Water most of the time and some orange juice every now and then!

[ZacD]

Water, milk, or 100% juice please!

I remember a video from valve saying they had all junk food but then started getting a mix of healthy and junk food just based of what people like, I think that's the better deal.

[Ryan Smith]

We're letting the status quo shift in favor of utilizing crunch as an acceptable tool for long periods of time... The further we let that paradigm shift, the worse it's going to get.


Start pushing the other way, guys... I don't want to work in an industry that requires me to work so much that i don't have time to LIVE MY FUCKING LIFE.

[cochtl]

The sad truth is that he considers crunch a normal factor in development since it happens so damn much. This guy measures success the same way colonial Americans measured their own by seeing how many children survived to adulthood. I mean overall the industry is doing well despite the personal happiness of the individual, but whatever, right? And if people keep signing on then something right is happening so who cares?

Also, you guys really shouldn't read about or make judgements about this guy based off of a gaming news site because that's just silly. What businessman in their right mind would read about the flame wars and Pachter nerd rage on destructoid or joystick? The fact that devs and gamers are arguing about the matter is irrelevant when this guy has been a games analyst for YEARS and only now decided to put into words what many have known; the only difference being the angle that this insight is coming from enrages so many.

Developers are the proverbial battered wives to the abusive husband that is the industry and it's stupid operating structure.

[Ged]

Developers are the proverbial battered wives to the abusive husband that is the industry and it's stupid operating structure.

yeah but for someone to actually stand up and say they agree with the way the husband treats his wife is highly unethical, perhaps at its core a little bit evil.

I think overtime and crunch should be met with disdain by all parties involved, management should be ashamed that they have to do this to their loyal staff and staff should be disappointed at the state of the industry. That's my opinion anyway.

[Saman]

Also, you guys really shouldn't read about or make judgements about this guy based off of a gaming news site because that's just silly. What businessman in their right mind would read would read about the flame wars and Pachter nerd rage on destructoid or joystick? The fact that devs and gamers are arguing about the matter is irrelevant when this guy has been a games analyst for YEARS and only now decided to put into words what many have known; the only difference being the angle that this insight is coming from enrages so many.

Developers are the proverbial battered wives to the abusive husband that is the industry and it's stupid operating structure.

The problem is that Pachter is being very biased in this video. Mostly against the developers, who in my opinion are the most important workers of a company. At one time he refeers to McNamara as "poor McNamara" and he is blaming a lot of the problems on Rockstar instead of Team Bondi which just shows that he is taking sides and not being very objective. His opinion is that the problems at Team Bondi were either Rockstar's fault or the developer's should just deal with it or leave the industry entirely. He does however seem pretty aware of these bold statements as he makes a joke about his job being in jeopardy near the end of the video.

Why would he not be reading the feedback give on websites? How else will they know how well they're doing if they won't read feedbacks/reviews etc? Having a commentary section in given sites is just stupid if you're not gonna use it to your benifit.

[McGreed]

From his twitter:
@watermelongames Appreciate your comment/sentiment, know you have a hard job. I don't hate unions, just think game dev is rewarding w/o OTApparently you are only allowed overtime pay if you hate your job. :P

EDIT: Actually it sounds more like that you should pay the company for getting the opportunity to work on games. :P

[danr]

... an industry analyst has said ...

thats as far as i got

[ae.]

Very happy someone else got frustrated because of what he said, I raged on facebook about this because I'm not cool and have no friends to talk to :(

i raged in your mouth when you were sleeping sorry about that :poly122:

[Geezus]

i raged in your mouth when you were sleeping sorry about that :poly122:

mmmm, that's hot.
pics.

[Ace-Angel]

GameTrailers staff never reads the feedback in the comment sections. They don't even have a proper anti-spam filter set in place. The most they do is read about said comments if they spill into the forums.

[Kot_Leopold]

GameTrailers staff never reads the feedback in the comment sections. They don't even have a proper anti-spam filter set in place. The most they do is read about said comments if they spill into the forums.
I've been on GT since 2006 and I don't think they ever spill into the forums, they've got moderators for that who don't even work for GT. Heck, I had a good chance at becoming one myself but then I wouldn't be here..

[hawken]

for everyone saying that bonuses are some kind of whimsical fairy dust, and not to expect them;

I was recently shocked to find out that the country I live in, if you are a full time employee then bonuses are a mandatory part of your contract, twice a year, for many if not all industries.

A friend of mine who is a teacher for a school got a bonus this christmas that was equal to 3 months pay! He was able to move house to a new rented apartment, then he got his summer bonus and went on holiday.

I've only ever worked contract over here and now indie, so bonuses are still the thing of magic pixie dust for me too, but if a company gives bonuses to staff here, they have to do it for all full time employees under the law.

(then again, overtime pay is non-existent here)

[Ghostscape]

for everyone saying that bonuses are some kind of whimsical fairy dust, and not to expect them;

I was recently shocked to find out that the country I live in, if you are a full time employee then bonuses are a mandatory part of your contract, twice a year, for many if not all industries.

A friend of mine who is a teacher for a school got a bonus this christmas that was equal to 3 months pay! He was able to move house to a new rented apartment, then he got his summer bonus and went on holiday.

I've only ever worked contract over here and now indie, so bonuses are still the thing of magic pixie dust for me too, but if a company gives bonuses to staff here, they have to do it for all full time employees under the law.

(then again, overtime pay is non-existent here)

Where do you live?

[konstruct]

Work to live... don't live to work.

that's my motto.

Unless your job makes you happy- in that case, you`re living well (via working). Sadly, all honeymoons come to an end over time :(

I don`t really have much sympathy for people bitching about crunch. I feel like the workers in the game biz have been gladly bending over and taking it for decades. As a work force we need to STOP doing that. If your upper managment has you working unreasonable hours- then they are unreasonable and need to be treated as such. I feel too often management plans for crunch and they need to learn to plan deadlines with that NOT in mind. Thats only going to happen if we all stop being such nerdly pushovers.

[Mark Dygert]

Where do you live?The moon. The bonuses are paid out in moon rocks. It's a shitty atmosphere to work in...

Actually Japan.

[Richard Kain]

It's shit like this that has pretty much made me one of the people I'd never thought I'd become... someone who worked in the game industry, got burned, and until shit like this gets sorted is in no rush to go jumping back in.

I make more as a buyer for a small tech company than I did working as an fx artist. I definitely miss working on games for a job, but I don't miss the kind of crap work ethic the game industry is full-steaming itself towards / through. I still can't believe the kind of comments / fake grief I got from a few coworkers about having time-consuming projects outside of my job.

This, more than anything else, is the real consequence and danger of the current approach to salaried game development. (and the abuse thereof)

This industry has an extremely hard time maintaining talent. And this trend is getting worse.

flaagan is a perfect example. Game development professionals in all the areas of game development are getting fed up with the system they find themselves in. When they eventually leave, they discover that their skills can get them much higher paying and less stressful jobs in other industries. Most of them never come back to developing games, the benefits to their quality of life are too good to abandon.

The result is that the game industry openly accepts inexperienced youngsters straight out of high school or college, burns through them in three-five years, and then fires them when their salaries get too high. At that point they either seek a higher position in another company, or burn out and leave the industry.

In a way, its kind of a trial-by-fire for first-timers. And those who manage to hang on for any amount of time have the experience necessary to make it just fine in other industries. So you can't say it is especially bad for the individuals themselves, they usually end up landing on their feet.

However, it is bad for the industry itself. You're not going to get more nuanced and sophisticated games out of a constant rookie-chewing machine. Mature, experienced talent is necessary for more mature titles. Failing to cultivate talent is eventually going to bite the game industry in the ass.

Moreover, the industry is probably alienating more experienced talent. I've personally always wanted to work in games. But at this point in my life I probably will never enter the "traditional" game workforce. I would have to take a substantial pay cut, and work ridiculous hours just to get an entry level position at a game company. My current job and benefits are just way more appealing. I might be able to swing indie development on the side eventually, but there's no good reason for me to apply for game jobs now.

[aesir]

for everyone saying that bonuses are some kind of whimsical fairy dust, and not to expect them;

I was recently shocked to find out that the country I live in, if you are a full time employee then bonuses are a mandatory part of your contract, twice a year, for many if not all industries.

A friend of mine who is a teacher for a school got a bonus this christmas that was equal to 3 months pay! He was able to move house to a new rented apartment, then he got his summer bonus and went on holiday.

I've only ever worked contract over here and now indie, so bonuses are still the thing of magic pixie dust for me too, but if a company gives bonuses to staff here, they have to do it for all full time employees under the law.

(then again, overtime pay is non-existent here)

I heard that those "bonuses" are actually just withheld pay (in japan)

[PixelMasher]

yea pretty much what konstruct said. I just flat out didnt work any overtime on my last job, especially cause it was a contract gig. all the contractors in the studio seemed to realize it was bullshit to be hired and worked into the ground for 6 months then just cut loose. we all just decided to not do overtime , we didnt sit down and discuss it, just more so when we saw each other leaving at 6 it was like fuck yea, im outta here too. no one got laid off, no one said shit all to us and it was just accepted that contractors were not gonna get fucked in the ass no more. its as simple as that, just stop doing it if you don't want to.

the attitude of working for a "free" 10 dollar dinner or some candy bars and soda as acceptable for even an hour or 2 of your time extra has got to change.

[Jeremy Wright]

the attitude of working for a "free" 10 dollar dinner or some candy bars and soda as acceptable for even an hour or 2 of your time extra has got to change.

Compound this with how much the company is making off of your time. It's not just that someone is giving up their time for far less than they're worth, but the company is making even MORE profit.

They give you a 'free' 10 dollar dinner instead of paying you a fair wage for your time, AND they make how much return off of the work you did for essentially free. Why would they ever want to change the way they do business?!

[Calabi]

There does seem to be a lack of talented new developers similar to Will Wright, and Pete Molyneux, that you hear about. It still all seems to be the old guys whom we hear about or indie devs.

[Baj Singh]

And those who manage to hang on for any amount of time have the experience necessary to make it just fine in other industries. So you can't say it is especially bad for the individuals themselves, they usually end up landing on their feet.

Are there that many options for games industry artists apart from film/TV? It seems as though the software developers and management have the most options for moving to other industries as their transferable skills seem like they are in more demand than ours.

[Mcejn]

There does seem to be a lack of talented new developers similar to Will Wright, and Pete Molyneux, that you hear about. It still all seems to be the old guys whom we hear about or indie devs.

Completely different industry today. The focus has since shifted to "teams", instead of a few individuals making games (which still happens, just not as much).

This whole thread gave me a headache. I'm glad I haven't experienced any of this so far, but sadly I feel like I will eventually.

-m

[Calabi]

Completely different industry today. The focus has since shifted to "teams", instead of a few individuals making games (which still happens, just not as much).

This whole thread gave me a headache. I'm glad I haven't experienced any of this so far, but sadly I feel like I will eventually.

-m

There were teams in the past as well, they had to have help to make their games. I'm talking about like Directors for movies.

Will Wright for instance had this vision for a game called The Sims, no ones copied it succesfully, no one else seems to understand why its so popular. But thats beside the point he had this idea for a unique game and Directed, and guided it into his vision, which has made a ton of money for EA.

You dont really seem to see that for the COD games or very few mainstream games now. Brendan McNamara I guess would be one, albeit he seems to be an arsehole, but even then he's only been behind one concept. Diretors only seem to be allowed to make one concept and must stick with that.

[Perfectblue]

Are there that many options for games industry artists apart from film/TV? It seems as though the software developers and management have the most options for moving to other industries as their transferable skills seem like they are in more demand than ours.

Quoting because I am curious as well. Software developers will always find it easier to transfer skills to another position, but as Baj Singh pointed out what other avenues are there for 3D artists?

[PixelMasher]

arch vis, 3d printing industry, toy design/product design, advertising can all use your skills as an artist, 3d or otherwise. if you learn autoCAD, you can get into the high end millwork design or automotive design. those are a few off the top of my head, I am sure if you looked into it you would be able to find more. or you could go teach at AI or any game art school if you have a few years experience/couple of shipped titles under your belt. I know the schools here in van are always looking for part time and full time instructors who know their shit.

[Perfectblue]

arch vis, 3d printing industry, toy design/product design, advertising can all use your skills as an artist, 3d or otherwise. if you learn autoCAD, you can get into the high end millwork design or automotive design.

Thanks for the input. However I will say I consistently here bad things about the achvis industry not only from forum users here but CGtalk and a few of my friends as well.

[Justin Meisse]

There does seem to be a lack of talented new developers similar to Will Wright, and Pete Molyneux, that you hear about. It still all seems to be the old guys whom we hear about or indie devs.

Those old guys started out as indie devs

as far as teaching, I've heard it doesn't pay as well.

[Dylan Brady]

Im in the process of working through a 6 week Internship that's 2 hours away with NO promise of full-time paid work coming down the line...
so I dont have too much sympathy ATM.
Im sure once I have an actual job that pays and I have to pull crunch ill change my mind.

[aesir]

Those old guys started out as indie devs

as far as teaching, I've heard it doesn't pay as well.

My school had a lot of people who would teach a 7-10PM class after work. It seemed like a fun way to make some extra money. Certainly being a fulltime teacher doesn't seem to pay well though.

[PixelMasher]

yea the guys I know who do part time teaching make between 40-60 bucks an hr, for 4-12 hours a week worth of work. at 12 hours a week thats an extra 20g+ a year, nice way to supplement your salary at a studio. fulltime teaching probably doesn't pay as well, which is ridiculous seeing as how a class of 15-30 students each paying 40-60G for a year, you would think they could afford to pay the teachers some good money, but again its corporate bullshit and money swine grabbing.

[LMP]

My school had a lot of people who would teach a 7-10PM class after work. It seemed like a fun way to make some extra money. Certainly being a fulltime teacher doesn't seem to pay well though.

Totally agree there. I had an awesome instructor who taught 5 days at 2 schools, in the mornings, worked at massive black in the afternoon, and also does freelance.

[MattQ86]

http://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/207124-headers.jpg

[Kwramm]

at least you're not killed afterwards and buried inside the pyramid....

[Dylan Brady]

just fired and left out of the credits of the pyramid

[almighty_gir]

at least you're not killed afterwards and buried inside the pyramid....

unless the game flops :P

[teaandcigarettes]

just fired and left out of the credits of the pyramid

Now I know how these workers must have felt when they called it the "Pyramid Khufu". Even history rolls with the big boys :(

[Malus]

The guys got no idea and belongs to that old school (and dying) breed of managers.

There are many far more difficult industries which daily manage large and diverse staffing, short or fluctuating deadlines, difficult expectations, scope creep and countless things outside of what this industry deals with.

If they can do it without excessive forced overtime, staff morale issues and consistently under scoping then I really can't see why our industry has an issue...

It's a real pity our industry largely overlooks/allows cowboy development from people who really wouldn't cut it in more professional industries.

Try building a dam, controlling the entire power grid of a country...maybe run the medical infrastructure of France or drive a global shipping fleet which determines if the oil for our industrial backbone is delivered on time..I know, get a man on the fucking moon!!...FFS we make games...its not rocket surgery. :P

Its completely possible to do good work, on time, on budget and without fucking over your staff if you manage your scope, employ talented/passionate people (not a million juniors you can push around) and are honest with your budget and timeline. Our industry just consistently tries to underbid each other trying to please our publishers which just forces the workers to do more with less.

Its not a sustainable process, but sadly we get these guys who are full of it and worse staff who pride themselves on being hardcore, "Man if you can't cut it like me go elsewhere bra" then top it all off we have entry level workers who'd gladly sell a kidney ot get a foot in the door whom all help perpetrate the myth its feasible and acceptable.


bah, douche bags....

Edit: to put it in personal context, I would never knowingly promise something which isn't feasible to my superiors and then turn around and expect my staff to just suck it up and deliver regardless of what it means to their mental health.

That's called being a poor manager (and a douche) and I'd expect to be fired.
How is it any different if a company knowingly undercuts its resources to get a project or over scopes the title with the available resources and expects its staff to take the load?

So glad I've never been directly effected by this sort of mentality.

[Calabi]

http://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/207124-headers.jpg

Actually theres little evidence that the pyramid builders were treated like that. Last I heard they were more like willing recruits whom were fed and treated well.

[arrangemonk]

@Free drinks:
Free Coffee and Water is nececary to survive any office job,
so this is nothing to get employees with

[Kwramm]

Actually theres little evidence that the pyramid builders were treated like that. Last I heard they were more like willing recruits whom were fed and treated well.

true...wonder if they will ever say this in the future about the games industry? ;) ...although I do have very little to complain about

[JacqueChoi]

New website:

interesting collection of links and reads.


http://ilovecrunch.co.uk/

[adam]

http://www.next-gen.biz/opinion/opinion-crunch-avoidable

[PixelMasher]

fuckin right, glad more and more articles are being written on this shit. BLOW THE HORN OF GONDOR ON THIS CUNTERY!

http://images.wikia.com/lotr/images/4/4f/BoromirHorn.jpg

[Perfectblue]

fuckin right, glad more and more articles are being written on this shit. BLOW THE HORN OF GONDOR ON THIS CUNTERY!

http://images.wikia.com/lotr/images/4/4f/BoromirHorn.jpg

rofl

[Brettzies]

. In places like WETA, they basically force your organize your work, so everyone knows which station worked on what during what time on which day and which revision of the file to see.
Money is the great equalizer, and even then crunch can get out of hand.

My personal opinion on why games see so many crunch problems/stories is that they have no history of overtime, so it's very easy to just have people work. If you look at film pre-computer days, it has a history of paying for overtime for people actually working on set doing physical jobs, which makes people accountable for at least trying to avoid it. Many places you have to be approved to work longer hours. However, if it does get to that, at least people get paid time-n-half for over 8 hours and double-time for the "golden hour" and so-called seventh day. Most visual effects studios grew with that standard and just kept it up when the computer fx came online. A person working on a computer is no different then a person working on set(who is getting OT). The places where you do hear horror stories about are mostly boutique style shops that had no history and came to being when the desktop became an affordable tool to work on. Kind of just sprung up out of nowhere bidding low on shows and taking what they could get. Then just expecting people to be happy working on a film so "why pay them over-time?" The studio had no experience doing it.

The game industry is similar to those boutiques that just sprung out of the ground. You have people making games in garages and then later over many years growing into places like EA. You have a handful of people working around the clock at times "back in the day," and it just became normal. The first bad crunch I heard about was Starcraft1, and that was for a month if I remember correctly. Blizzard was much smaller then and I can only assume many of those people made a killing off bonuses. That mentality is carried forward across many studios and years that saw the success, crunch hard because that's what the big boys do.

When you don't have to actually pay people for their time and are working off the "salary" basis, it's very easy to (ask) people to work long hours, even making it sound non-optional. I believe you can't force people to do this, but the consequences for not doing it can be great. You won't look like a team player, and when/if bonuses do roll around, it won't be forgotten who didn't "crunch," possibly even if your work is great and on-time. You may get worse assignments, etc...who knows, every place is different.

The point is game places have a history of not having to account for this time, instead using an arbitrary bonus system, which can be good, but can also leave some high and dry or not even equal to time spent working. When people have to shell out money for "infinity/hours" per week, they are less likely to have the whole crew crunch and instead put more time into making a working pipeline that moves forward and commit to final-ing things. A lot of places seem to take advantage of these free hours, you like your job, it's fun anyway, that's how it's always been done, team spirit mentality.

Not everyone has the option to buck the system, and some do just have to suck it up till they can move on. Not all crunches are bad though. Granted, games are a little bit more fluid then a film, but after all these years, you'd think it could be done in a normal working environment. Of course there are times where a few weeks of crunch helps, but something is out of whack when people are crunching for six months to a year. While it can be done and does, it's not realistic to have these expectations. If people had to pay for this time, they be forced to change. Until they do though, why would they want to?

[Fuse]

I think the problem of the games industry is that it grew very fast. Perhaps too fast. It's on the level of the film industry is terms of scope and budgets but It didn't get to mature in that time.

It is still continuing to grow very fast and we are spearheading most of business and development innovations while other industries are playing catchup. Social networking through multiplayer, dlc, digital distribution, cross media interaction, mobile.. It is our to our advantage that we continue to evolve, unfortunately recognition as legitimate professionals, fair labour practices, individual recognition in the media etc are all things that are getting discussed only now.

[bugo]

The same drama of work for living. I still think that there should be unions for game development, specially in US. Disney and Dreamworks do. Why can't games have?
less stress = quality of work = fair payments = same time.

[Ace-Angel]

Money is the great equalizer, and even then crunch can get out of hand.

My personal opinion on why games see so many crunch problems/stories is that they have no history of overtime, so it's very easy to just have people work. If you look at film pre-computer days, it has a history of paying for overtime for people actually working on set doing physical jobs, which makes people accountable for at least trying to avoid it. Many places you have to be approved to work longer hours. However, if it does get to that, at least people get paid time-n-half for over 8 hours and double-time for the "golden hour" and so-called seventh day. Most visual effects studios grew with that standard and just kept it up when the computer fx came online. A person working on a computer is no different then a person working on set(who is getting OT). The places where you do hear horror stories about are mostly boutique style shops that had no history and came to being when the desktop became an affordable tool to work on. Kind of just sprung up out of nowhere bidding low on shows and taking what they could get. Then just expecting people to be happy working on a film so "why pay them over-time?" The studio had no experience doing it.

The game industry is similar to those boutiques that just sprung out of the ground. You have people making games in garages and then later over many years growing into places like EA. You have a handful of people working around the clock at times "back in the day," and it just became normal. The first bad crunch I heard about was Starcraft1, and that was for a month if I remember correctly. Blizzard was much smaller then and I can only assume many of those people made a killing off bonuses. That mentality is carried forward across many studios and years that saw the success, crunch hard because that's what the big boys do.

When you don't have to actually pay people for their time and are working off the "salary" basis, it's very easy to (ask) people to work long hours, even making it sound non-optional. I believe you can't force people to do this, but the consequences for not doing it can be great. You won't look like a team player, and when/if bonuses do roll around, it won't be forgotten who didn't "crunch," possibly even if your work is great and on-time. You may get worse assignments, etc...who knows, every place is different.

The point is game places have a history of not having to account for this time, instead using an arbitrary bonus system, which can be good, but can also leave some high and dry or not even equal to time spent working. When people have to shell out money for "infinity/hours" per week, they are less likely to have the whole crew crunch and instead put more time into making a working pipeline that moves forward and commit to final-ing things. A lot of places seem to take advantage of these free hours, you like your job, it's fun anyway, that's how it's always been done, team spirit mentality.

Not everyone has the option to buck the system, and some do just have to suck it up till they can move on. Not all crunches are bad though. Granted, games are a little bit more fluid then a film, but after all these years, you'd think it could be done in a normal working environment. Of course there are times where a few weeks of crunch helps, but something is out of whack when people are crunching for six months to a year. While it can be done and does, it's not realistic to have these expectations. If people had to pay for this time, they be forced to change. Until they do though, why would they want to?

I think the problem of the games industry is that it grew very fast. Perhaps too fast. It's on the level of the film industry is terms of scope and budgets but It didn't get to mature in that time.

It is still continuing to grow very fast and we are spearheading most of business and development innovations while other industries are playing catchup. Social networking through multiplayer, dlc, digital distribution, cross media interaction, mobile.. It is our to our advantage that we continue to evolve, unfortunately recognition as legitimate professionals, fair labour practices, individual recognition in the media etc are all things that are getting discussed only now.


This is what perplexes me, from one side, the work etiquette in gaming is radically different due to the social structure that surrounds the workforce vs the managerial school of thought which comes from people which have been in business for a while, and on the other, the industry simply grew too fast not having enough time to settle in.

I would say games hit a new singularity every year.

I mean hell, a few years ago, rendering was all the rage and only options to get something to look good, and you had to spend wads of cash and hours in creating everything out of sync in different applications, now a days you have small movie studios, animation indies and even arch and design vet's using game engines to show case their stuff, because you don't need to spend time rendering your SSAO within the scene while having 3 characters with SSS and can create your own materials as you desire.

I just hope we hit our stride before something bad happens.