How about them Wikileaks, eh?

[t4paN]

You guys been watching the news lately? Huge uproar. Coinciding with the recent "diplomatic cables" leaks, Julian Assange the co-founder of wikileaks is possibly going to prison for rape. Two wikileaks donation accounts (one was his legal defence fund) got suspended, and the USA government wants to label him a terrorist, have him extradited from Sweden (if and when he gets there), and get him to a martial court (perfect for a "You can't handle the truth!" joke).

Some people have actually asked for him to be assassinated as if he was an enemy combatant/Al-Qaeda leader.

Wikileaks temp mirror (even their DNS host dropped them): http://213.251.145.96/

Details on his possible arrest: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/blog/2010/dec/06/julian-assange-wikileaks-latest

Details on the whole thing, including actual stories based on recent leaks of US diplomatic documents: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/wikileaks

While I wouldn't recommend it for American citizens, I would urge people who are interested in this kind of thing to donate for the cause.

http://213.251.145.96/support.html

[xvampire]

as far as i 100% on it, id rather have lighter subject/topic in game art forum :p

[fearian]

I've been vaguely following this for while now and things are just getting worse and worse.

I recommend everyone take a look at this site for a little refresher on why wikileaks in important. http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/

Also, for an often missed perspective, FAIR blog reminds us that wikileaks hasn't actually leaked anything. http://www.fair.org/blog/2010/12/01/wikileaks-hasnt-leaked-anything/

Julian Assange is a journalist who has published the material on wikileaks, and the US government is essentially setting a standard where they can launch an all out attack on a journalist who publishes material from a whistle-blower.

[HonkyPunch]

as a blue blooded, God fearing american, wikileaks is scary and bad, and that Julian Assclown guy looks a lot like the computer fag I beat up in high school.

[Jesse Moody]

I don't know. I'm really mixed on this. Some stuff should be shared but there are some things the general public just really doesn't need to know.

Case in point. Why in the hell would you release this?

http://gizmodo.com/5707600/wikileaks-releases-secret-list-of-critical-infrastructure-sites

"A secret memo listing critical infrastructure facilities around the world was published by WikiLeaks on Sunday, prompting criticism that the publication could serve as a target-list for terrorists."

What does this guy really want from this? What is his agenda? Everyone has one and don't tell me he just wants people to know what is really going on.

[aniceto]

The people calling for Julian Assange's death are ignorant assholes, and our PM Julia Gillard is a cunt. That is all.

[fearian]

His agenda is to make governments acountable for illegal actions that would otherwise go unknown.

however it's true that wikileaks holds a much stronger (bordering on extreme) stance on this than alot of people would agree with. In the past they have been under criticism for releasing documents that pertained to then recent military manoeuvres. However in this latest mega batch iirc the vast majority if not all of it is a year or two old.

I for one wouldn't defend the example you linked; It's one of the cases where wikileaks lets its ideology - and obligations this ideology imposes on them - rule. It's a thin line they tread. A lot of material goes unpublished, but that's way past a line you or I may draw.

ultimately though, I believe it's neccesary. When it comes down to it, the number of hypothetical lives wikileaks may or may not have endangered in incomparable to the number of cold hard civilan deaths due to military incompetence and immorality.

If you need any further evidence of this, http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/ refresh it, and actually look at the sources. These are things happening to real people (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0).

[00Zero]

Case in point. Why in the hell would you release this?
"A secret memo listing critical infrastructure facilities around the world was published by WikiLeaks on Sunday, prompting criticism that the publication could serve as a target-list for terrorists."
all that stuff is public knowledge. if somebody was really looking for a vulnerability, they could have found many of those easily.

[Ride]

Im probably going to be flamed for this but; the conspiracy theorist in me thinks this smells of a controlled release of some organization/nation. I mean if "they" wanted to shut him up, buy him off, get a heart attack, get in a car accident or whatever, then they would have done so a long time ago. Not to mention the media attention of the established media.

Paranoid i know, just saying.

[mikezoo]

You guys want to see where some of wikileaks servers are located? Straight up Soviet era missile bunker that looks like something outta james bond!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwlATf9xse4

as for wikiLeaks itself, ALL governments should be held accountable.

[MattQ86]

His agenda is to make governments acountable for illegal actions that would otherwise go unknown.

however it's true that wikileaks holds a much stronger (bordering on extreme) stance on this than alot of people would agree with. In the past they have been under criticism for releasing documents that pertained to then recent military manoeuvres. However in this latest mega batch iirc the vast majority if not all of it is a year or two old.

I for one wouldn't defend the example you linked; It's one of the cases where wikileaks lets its ideology - and obligations this ideology imposes on them - rule. It's a thin line they tread. A lot of material goes unpublished, but that's way past a line you or I may draw.

ultimately though, I believe it's neccesary. When it comes down to it, the number of hypothetical lives wikileaks may or may not have endangered in incomparable to the number of cold hard civilan deaths due to military incompetence and immorality.

If you need any further evidence of this, http://sowhyiswikileaksagoodthingagain.com/ refresh it, and actually look at the sources. These are things happening to real people (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0).


Sooo...he's a real life version of The Laughing Man? I swear the world gets more and more like a cyberpunk story with each passing day.


http://www.evilparty.com/laughing_man_animated.gif

I agree with the intentions. Governments should answer for the crimes they commit. That said perhaps there are better ways of bringing such things to light other than putting innocent people's lives at risk.

[Esprite]

With groups like Razor1911 backing wikileaks as well as botnet DDOS attacks on the bank that froze the wikileaks account...It almost seems like a cyber/info war and the lines are being drawn.

Atleast I think it certainly seems like an interesting plot, governments against him, a background of cryptography and hacking. You have people debating what is right and wrong with what they(he) is doing.

The story has it's main character..is he a hero...a villian? Encrypted insurance files....the CIA... conspiracy..character assassination..companies bending to government pressure. Scandal, intrigue, sex, and drama....

When is the movie coming out?

[moof]

Take the good with the bad. I'd much rather a world with wikileaks, than a world without.

[PatrickL]

Plain and simple, Wikileaks is dangerous. But it's placing the danger in front of us, instead of behind a curtain off to the side, which is exactly why we need it.

[00Zero]

who is it putting in danger besides spies and informants? serious question btw.

i mean, spies....cmon, youre a spy, i feel no pity for your death.

[Mark Dygert]

You want some conspiracy theory shit?

http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/17/china-telecom-re-routes-15-of-the-worlds-internet-traffic-for/
April 8 China rerouted 15 min of internet traffic including that of the US government, military and a number of commercial websites (banks maybe?)

Then wikileaks happens.

Blame China?
Possibly. China probably wanted to make sure that the US was able to pay back its debt and obtain leverage. So why isn't the US pointing fingers? China holds a huge amount of debt.

Deeper conspiracy theory?
Probably not the Chinese behind the April 8th Attack, it is probably a smoke screen for the US gov leaking its own documents. They're frustrated by the lack of international cooperation on international issues and want everyone to know that what they say in private is what they say in public also that everyone else is freaked out about NK and Iran. If the US just says it through official channels everyone rolls their eyes and says "oh that's just the US being douche bags again" but if "secret documents" get released without their consent then well everyone stands up and starts talking.

Want to go even deeper?
Republicans are holding the economy back, there is more than enough money to get the economy back on its feet floating around the banks and private companies but as long as the economy is in the toilet they can make Obama look like an idiot. Elect a republican president and suddenly the money starts flowing again, everyone is back to work and the republicans take the credit for fixing the problem they solved. Wikileaks is an attempt to discredit Hillary so she doesn't run again, "the largest leak of sensitive documents happened on her watch are you really going to let her be president". The military is full of republican top brass who hate democrats...

Yea all of this is crazy bat shit nuts but as long as we're speculating wildly might as well have some fun.

[Cyrael]

Elect a republican president and suddenly the money starts flowing again, everyone is back to work and the republicans take the credit for fixing the problem they started.




fixed that for ya :)

[The Flying Monk]

All of the politics aside. What I love about this whole thing is how cyberpunk the whole thing is. A lone crusader who gathers and then periodical releases sensitive and politically embarrassing material for the world to see. Best of all there is an encrypted file that has been handed out to everyone, the theory being that if Julian Assange where assassinated or the servers bombed then the flood gates would completely open.

It just sounds like the sort of stuff Neil Stephson and Willian Gibson promised us back in the 90's

[Muzz]

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/julian_assange_why_the_world_needs_wikileaks.html

He isnt a lone crusader as such, his job is to be the figure head of his organisation and take the flak. Not that it's a bad thing.

[aesir]

Condensed thoughts:

Some of the things wikileaks releases should not be released.

Other things they need to.

For example, a little while ago wikileaks uncovered that Britian's military agreed to store cluster bombs for the US even though this goes against treaties that they signed (cluster bombs are horrific weapons). Wikileaks uncovered that the military was going behind their gov's back to do this. This sort of thing should be released.

Wikileaks is good, but it needs some oversight. Some better selective releases. If they have a story, run with it. Don't just release ten thousand pages of shit they got their hands on.

[greenj2]

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/julian_assange_why_the_world_needs_wikileaks.html

Nice link, Muzz. ;D

Personally I'm all for whistleblower organisations like Wikileaks. I think concealing inconvenient truths in favour of contrived falsehoods and mass-ignorance has always been a detrimental force in the social evolution of humanity, maybe the greatest ever. Lies might just be the most destructive man-made force on earth. Truth should always be embraced, even when it's hard to swallow. Whistleblowers should have a public, anonymous outlet to voice their moral concerns, free from the persecution and censorship of control systems within their organisations.

[oXYnary]

http://213.251.145.96/support.html

Glad I got my donation in paypal before they dropped the bomb. Funny. How only now Paypal uses that excuse when wikileaks has been doing what it has for years.

The whole uproar towards him stinks of government interference in private companies.

[samgriffiths]

I watched a video where the US gov knowingly killed innocent children in iraq, they need to know they can't get away with this shit.

[Christian Hjerpe]

If you guys wanna read about the rape case agaisnt Julian Assange here is a good link:
https://www.flashback.org/t1275257
The forum is in swedish but you can probably use google translate. There is also a summary in english in the first post.

[Jeremy Lindstrom]

why is the vast majority of the stuff leaked anti-american though, where's the leaks from North Korea, where's the leaks from Djibouti...

[Muzz]

Possibly because the culture doesnt support leakers as much? Also there is probably stuff to do with trust and language barriers.

[Tyler]

As far as i'm concerned, if the gouvernment didn't want these documents leaked, they should have not made them so accessable. Good on WikiLeaks for this. It'd be a shame if he goes down, though the world is so corrupt, mis-informed, and so anti-free speech that i doubt he'll stay a free man for long.

What WikiLeaks have successfully done, is threaten some of the biggest powers on the planet. For that i commend them. This bullshit about innocent lives at risk though. Most of the listed locations in the last document are public attractions, with tourist centers and pay-to-view museums.

I say congratulations to WikiLeaks on achieving something no one else has done yet. Giving the gouvernments a bit of a case of night-terrors ;)

[Rick Stirling]

why is the vast majority of the stuff leaked anti-american though, where's the leaks from North Korea, where's the leaks from Djibouti...

Possibly they have yet to be leaked. Certainly some have been alluded to.

What people tend to think of the leaks is very much based on what they think of their government. Some of the things released are simple gossip, some things could have been easily guessed (like how foreign leaders are really regarded (which I'll guess is generally how the people in those countries regard their own leaders anyway.)), and some things should Absolutely be in the public domain - the spying on the United Nations for example.

I don't see anything that was released that could be considered as a danger to anything other that some political careers.

[luke]

I wonder whats in that file that you can download but no one can get into, somthing about if he ever goes "missing" the passcode will be realeased and the secret file will be opened!
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/02/wikileaks_insurance/

[lampekap]

i heard jullian assange was arrested by british police today?

[bbob]

Meh, I dont really see how these leaks of diplomatic cables are interesting nor really that damaging. Yeah, internal jargon is a bit rougher around the edges, so what?

Oh noes! Ahmadinejad is compared to Hitler, now the excellent relations between Iran and the US are spoilt!

why is the vast majority of the stuff leaked anti-american though, where's the leaks from North Korea, where's the leaks from Djibouti...

Information, as such, cannot be anti anything. Also, it is worth to note that it is not merely America this collection of leaks implicate. Now, if this information reveals someone as asshats, it is hardly the publishers fault. Granted, someone should probably look closer into who is allowed to handle classified information, but perhaps more important, they should probably also think about why it stings when the truth comes out.

As for information escaping North Korea into the western media landscape hardly warrants a middle-man of the likes of wikileaks, as North Korea has no jurisdiction to demand names from news stations.

EDIT: @Lampekap, yup: http://cms.met.police.uk/news/arrests_and_charges/extradition_unit_arrest_man_on_behalf_of_the_swedi sh_authorities

EDIT2:

As far as i'm concerned, if the gouvernment didn't want these documents leaked, they should have not made them so accessable. Good on WikiLeaks for this. It'd be a shame if he goes down, though the world is so corrupt, mis-informed, and so anti-free speech that i doubt he'll stay a free man for long.

Yeah, our western constitutions are so shitty that they had to interpol a weak rape charge instead of just arresting him. I'm sorry, but I am really tired of people whining about how unjust our comfortable western lives are. We are the safest, most free people that have ever lived. We enjoy comforts that kings of the past could hardly dream about. If you think there is a problem with this world, go and fix it instead of crying about how hard you have it.

Sorry for the rant, and it is as such not directed at you, just the mentality. Had to be said, though.

[luke]

i heard jullian assange was arrested by british police today?

oh yeah

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11937110

[TomDunne]

As far as i'm concerned, if the gouvernment didn't want these documents leaked, they should have not made them so accessable.

A parallel to that is: "As far as I'm concerned, if the woman didn't want to be raped, she wouldn't have dressed so provocatively."

I'm no fan of the US government, but I'm never going to approve of blaming the victim for the crime. In the big picture, making the US look bad is no tragedy, but there's almost certainly some poor bastards out there who have lost or will lose their lives over the leaks - an informant outed, collateral damage in an a previously avoidable battle, etc. Other people don't deserve to die just because some army private thought it would be a great idea to dump gigs of military communications out in the open.

[MALicivs]

...

http://jeffreyhill.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d417153ef0134899da2e8970c-550wi

oh the irony.

[xvampire]

^ hahaha nice picture dude! super irony lol

[t4paN]

Both Visa and Mastercard have stopped allowing the transfer of funds to wikileaks.

Read about it here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/dec/07/wikileaks-us-embassy-cables-live-updates

Fuck free speech and all that shit.

[TomDunne]

http://jeffreyhill.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d417153ef0134899da2e8970c-550wi

oh the irony.

/shrug. Two wrongs still don't make a right.

[Malus]

A parallel to that is: "As far as I'm concerned, if the woman didn't want to be raped, she wouldn't have dressed so provocatively."

I'm no fan of the US government, but I'm never going to approve of blaming the victim for the crime. In the big picture, making the US look bad is no tragedy, but there's almost certainly some poor bastards out there who have lost or will lose their lives over the leaks - an informant outed, collateral damage in an a previously avoidable battle, etc. Other people don't deserve to die just because some army private thought it would be a great idea to dump gigs of military communications out in the open.


No one deserves to die, but if people are going to die it should only ever be fighting for truth and not a result of others lies.
That private saw an atrocity enacted on civilians, if you have watched the tape its horrible. Even more so when you know the dead were innocent. Switch history a touch and they could have been our friends and family lying there.


Also, bad analogy. How exactly are these equal:
1. an innocent victim of sexual assault
2. individuals caught red handed being less than truthful with the people who democratically elected.

If there are inconsistencies from our governments in reporting facts and corruption within the ranks of our world leaders they can hardly cry foul for them being brought to light.

Yes it's a dangerous line to walk releasing these details and some of them are certainly worrying for international political stability but what scares me more is how easily they lie to us and how ridiculously fragile the political machine is.

In any case does anyone really think this amount of information would remain hidden forever?
Maybe its the wakeup call these arrogant leaders deserve. Play fair or get caught out...someone's watching and you ARE accountable.

Personally I'd rather know what's going on than the alternative.

As was brought up earlier, wikileaks do NOT leak the information, they are a resource for reporting on facts given up by internal whistle-blowers.

This is drastically different, they are in all accounts a news service, journalists, to start cracking down on their freedom to report the truth is encroaching right up to the front door of our personal freedoms. Democracy? Yeah right.

Why is it fine for whistle-blowers to divulge information on hospitals mistreating patients or financial big wigs committing insider trading but we aren't allowed to know about the people who's daily decisions roll the dice with the lives of the entire population of this planet?

Is it because the fact our governments have finally been caught out doing the thing we all suspected makes it all too real for people?

I for one want honesty for a change and will take its consequences, people hiding from it just become a burden on the rest of us.

When 100% of people want change but only 2% have the balls to demand it the 2% often get persecuted.
If 98% demand it..change happens.

BTW, what are the 3 principles America is apparently founded on again?

Truth, Liberty and justice..... Just saying.

[TomDunne]

No one deserves to die, but if people are going to die it should only ever be fighting for truth and not a result of others lies.
That private saw an atrocity enacted on civilians, if you have watched the tape its horrible. Even more so when you know the dead were innocent. Switch history a touch and they could have been our friends and family lying there.


Also, bad analogy. How exactly are these equal:
1. an innocent victim of sexual assault
2. individuals caught red handed being less than truthful with the people who democratically elected.


The analogy is fine. We're not talking about the ends here, but the means. A crime isn't justified because the victim made the crime so attractive, whether it's theft of information or sexual assault. If the assault analogy is too remote to work, let's go financial.

If an insider at a major credit firm had hacked your credit card info online, claiming it was done with the good intention of 'exposing the security flaws in the financial sector', you're not going to tell me you deserved to get screwed and thank the hacker, you're going to blame the asshole who dropped a text file with your Visa number on the web. Even if your bank does have poor security, you sure don't "deserve" to be a victim. The bank needs to upgrade its security, but the guilty party is still the hacker, not the bank.

just as you don't deserve to have your Visa numbers outed because your bank has a hacker working for them, people who work with the US don't deserve to die because the government has an army private who broke his oath by leaking docs to Julian Assange. Maybe it's good that the info has come out, but "deserve" has got nothing to do with it.

[fearian]

right, but what you just said Tom, on the other hand, is not a good analogy. A better one would be that you used your credit card to pay for child prostitutes, and a hacker took your details and put them online to expose you.

think about the crimes you say wikileaks has commited.
1. Wikileaks did not steal any documents, information, or hack anything. People working in these organizations stole the information and brought it to wikileaks to PUBLISH.
2. Wikileaks goes through enormous measures to verify the accuracy of their sources. WHAT YOU ARE READING ABOUT HAS ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

Wikileaks is uncovering things that people are LIVING through day to day in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. Al Qaeda is really strapping children with explosives. Our armed forces are being killed in friendly fire incidents. Civilians with families and friends are being killed in conflict areas.

The issue is that the government has been suppressing this information because it's BAD PRESS.

[notman]

As far as i'm concerned, if the gouvernment didn't want these documents leaked, they should have not made them so accessable. Good on WikiLeaks for this. It'd be a shame if he goes down, though the world is so corrupt, mis-informed, and so anti-free speech that i doubt he'll stay a free man for long.

^This^

The US government needs to look in a mirror, and plug the leaks. Would I prefer to keep some of these documents secret? Sure. I don't want to give terrorists an open list of targets. But, our government should be securing those locations, rather than taking nude photos of every American that walks through an airport.

Also, for all those waving their American flag, are we not the country that preaches free speech everywhere?

[JacqueChoi]

I'm quite surprised at a lot of the anti-wikileak reactiions in this thread.

You do realise Hitler used information suppression as a tool.

Information suppression is why North Korea is the way it is.



It's historically the same way religion has controlled masses.



If you're siding that information shouldn't be freely available, then you're essentially fundamentally siding with the side believes the internet should be censored, like China (whos citizens do not have basic human rights).

[Ferg]

I love how when our government gets caught doing illegal, immoral things, and the proof is laid out in front of us, so many people get mad at the person showing us the crime, instead of the perpetrators.

[Ravenslayer]

The leaking of vulnerable infrastructures is just stupid but illegal operations by governments should be released to the public so they are kept in check and don't think that they can just do anything they want whenever they want and sheeple will follow.

This hunt for jullian assange and the way they do it is just sickening. Yet another reminder that you really don't have anything to say at all and that the so called freedom of some is a big lie.

[acc]

Is it because the fact our governments have finally been caught out doing the thing we all suspected makes it all too real for people?
Law of Triviality.

Changing the world is hard, but getting mad at one guy is easy.

See also: chasing Bin Laden instead of fighting fundamentalism

But it doesn't matter if Wikileaks dies because the cat is out of the bag now. A dozen organizations will rise up to replace it, and a dozen more for each of those which are shut down. In a month or two the mass media will find that it doesn't drive ratings anymore and suddenly everyone will simultaneously shut up about it and go back to talking about celebrity scandals and iStuff.

[Phones]

Yes, so many misconceptions about wikileaks here.

The thing is, Wikileaks does review documents before release, and spies/informants/soldiers don't die over these types of leaks. It just doesn't happen, and these things are said pretty much every time Wikileaks publishes something. It's a shame too.

I also found it interesting that Republicans are calling Assange and Wikileaks "Terrorist". That says something about how the governments throw around the word "terrorist"

[dejawolf]

welcome to china.

[Rick Stirling]

http://m.boingboing.net/2010/12/07/us-to-host-world-pre.html


The United States is pleased to announce that it will host UNESCO's World Press Freedom Day event in 2011 ...
The United States places technology and innovation at the forefront of its diplomatic and development efforts. New media has empowered citizens around the world to report on their circumstances, express opinions on world events, and exchange information in environments sometimes hostile to such exercises of individuals' right to freedom of expression. At the same time, we are concerned about the determination of some governments to censor and silence individuals, and to restrict the free flow of information.

[Mark Dygert]

Yes, so many misconceptions about wikileaks here.

The thing is, Wikileaks does review documents before release, and spies/informants/soldiers don't die over these types of leaks. It just doesn't happen, and these things are said pretty much every time Wikileaks publishes something. It's a shame too.

I also found it interesting that Republicans are calling Assange and Wikileaks "Terrorist". That says something about how the governments throw around the word "terrorist"Or how mental the republicans are and how they haven't changed.

Here's a sample of their logic:

if everyone != me then (terrorist = everyone) else (terrorist = everyone)
kill terrorist

[r_fletch_r]

perhaps its mainly americans who are leaking information to wiki leaks. I doubt they would turn down information from other nations.

[Striff]

We are starting to live in a society where the truth is starting to become illegal. A majority of people are becoming sheep to their government. They don't care many innocent civilians are being killed by an unjust war. They don't care how many laws are being broken by the politicians they vote into office. The only thing they care about is living in a free country where they can go stuff their faces at McDonalds every day and come home at night and watch Jersey Shore.

It's nice to see someone with the balls to stand up to the governments of the world and expose what they really are. Governments should be held accountable for their actions by the people who vote them into office. American's just don't care anymore. I wish we would riot like the French do when the government tries to screw their people over. American's don't have the balls.

Pretty soon we are going to be living in a Fahrenheit 451 world, if we are not living in one already.

[Arac]

I'm glad wikileaks is getting some attention, but the focus seems more on the person behind it, than the messages they are spreading. Eventhough, a case like this, where various western governments, who preach freedom of speech (1st amendment, anyone?), are conspiring against and trying to censor a journalist, to cover up for their own mistakes should be met with outrage and get a LOT more coverage.

I'm disappointed some of these leaks haven't caused the uproar they should have. Maybe it's just due to the flood of the information, but I'm guessing the media is just ignoring most of it and hoping it will all blow over.

For example: the Apache video; showing the shooting of innocent children and journalists seems to have made a lot less impact than those pictures showing iraqis being abused and decorated like christmas trees in Abu Ghraib.

And Hillary Clinton ordering members of the UN to be spied upon? To me that seems more of reason to get fired than her husband getting some R&R in the Oval office.


I think it's a good thing that Assange turned himself in, hopefully this will reveal the (most probably) false allegations against him, and make some people realise how free they really are.

[kaze369]

in case people didn't realize this, but the data that the military private downloaded off the servers in the US is NOT the same server that stores top secret information for the Defense Department or the Pentagon. Also Julian Assange has an arrangement with the New York Times, The Guardian(in Londen), a few other major news papers that before they release any information to the public that they check with the White House to see if there's anything that should be retracted. In this batch of leaks the White House was perfectly ok. So this whole controversy is BULLSHIT.

"The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the
very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to
me to decide whether we should have a government without
newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not
hesitate a moment to prefer the latter." --Thomas Jefferson to
Edward Carrington, 1787.

Once again Jefferson, Thank you!

[Bigjohn]

Or how mental the republicans are and how they haven't changed.

Here's a sample of their logic:

if everyone != me then (terrorist = everyone) else (terrorist = everyone)
kill terrorist


Cause the current Democrat president is a peace-lover?

Military budget is bigger than ever. Same'ol wars. I guess Obama is a republican now...

[metalliandy]

i remember when Polycount was about game art :(

[TomDunne]

i remember when Polycount was about game art :(

I dunno, I've been here since 1998 and the general forums have always had a pretty good amount of off-topic bullshit :)

Anyway, I had submitted another post in the thread earlier but it got gobbled up when the server went crizazy. I'll just let it go and focus on sketching out my Penis Tank commander in hopes there's a PC Civil War contest!

[moof]

I guess Obama is a republican now...

You watch how he seems to roll over on everything for the Republicans these days, you would think he were a Republican stoog.

I'm waiting for the day where he actually stands up and acts progressive and (gasp!) maybe even a little socialist, like his ardent rightwing critics constantly accuse him of being. Most everything going on these days in government is something center right or outright rightwing; maintenance of the status quo for the last 30 years.

[Bigjohn]

I'm waiting for the day where he actually stands up and acts progressive and (gasp!) maybe even a little socialist, like his ardent rightwing critics constantly accuse him of being. Most everything going on these days in government is something center right or outright rightwing; maintenance of the status quo for the last 30 years.

Exactly. And people called Bush a conservative. The only thing he ever conserved was the status quo. Back then I thought the Democrats blaming Bush for being "too conservative" was ridiculous, cause he wasn't one at all. But now the Republicans are doing the same thing to Obama, calling him a socialist, where really he just continues on the same policy as the previous administration, which is exactly what the previous administration did. All the way back for decades.

All this Republican vs Democrats thing is as ridiculous, if not more so, as Polycount vs GA.

[fearian]

i remember when Polycount was about game art :(

It's important to discuss important issues with your peers!

their less likely to get mad and punch you than any old punter! :poly142:

[Ride]

in case people didn't realize this, but the data that the military private downloaded off the servers in the US is NOT the same server that stores top secret information for the Defense Department or the Pentagon. Also Julian Assange has an arrangement with the New York Times, The Guardian(in Londen), a few other major news papers that before they release any information to the public that they check with the White House to see if there's anything that should be retracted. In this batch of leaks the White House was perfectly ok. So this whole controversy is BULLSHIT.

"The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the
very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to
me to decide whether we should have a government without
newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not
hesitate a moment to prefer the latter." --Thomas Jefferson to
Edward Carrington, 1787.

Once again Jefferson, Thank you!

Mhm..

And now they will flush Assange down the toilet and use the whole controversy as an argument against net neutrality/free speech. Again, just my paranoid mind at work.

Never let a crisis go to waste.

[DKK]

Want to go even deeper?


http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/11712/1554679-no_we_need_to_go_deeper_super.jpg

[Grimm_Wrecking]

All this Republican vs Democrats thing is as ridiculous

You effin' said it.

They change meanings constantly. Not to long ago how people perceive "republicans" were actually the "democrats". They just switch to the winning side.

Its just a matter of what scum is chosen for "X" corporation. Its no different than it was during the days of the railroad tycoons its just corporations are better at hiding their puppet strings now.

-----

As for the war shit.
Wars are evil. -period-

Both sides do atrocious shit, because you don't win a war with hugs, kisses, teddy bears and penis ribbons.

I am not advocating the use of human land mine detectors, but this isn't the first time soldiers have used this tactic, nor are we the first country to do this. Neither is this the first time innocent people have been killed in a war. Every war, at all, ever, in the history of man has had innocents die. Yes its terrible; yes I feel bad for those affected; war is evil.

-----

Wikileaks adds a level of transparency that needs to exist. The government will probably let the dude go after a big over dramatized court case where inevitably it'll be decided that its a matter of free speech and that it cannot and will not be taken down.
However, it will then probably just be used to feed the public information to help governments corral them. Disinformation. :(


EDIT:
you don't win a war with hugs, kisses, teddy bears and penis ribbons.
Unless its a polycount civil war in which case, making a primordial dwarf with testicals for an adam's apple that have tumors who is hugging a giant teddy bear penis pillow with a ribbon on it will probably win you the war.

[moof]

Mhm..

And now they will flush Assange down the toilet and use the whole controversy as an argument against net neutrality/free speech. Again, just my paranoid mind at work.

Never let a crisis go to waste.

This is what I fear the most. Not that government, and as George Carlin called them 'The owners of this country'- all these vested interests; that they are going to go after this and make the case for more censorship and control. That I expect, I don't fear that. I fear that people in this country just don't care enough to fight back, and that the powerful are going to take more control and most people will just... let them.

Apathy is a powerful enemy.

The net seems like the last bastion of real freedom and power we 'the people' have.


[edit]

Just to add why wikileaks is important, you just can't make these things up:

WikiLeaks: Texas Company Helped Pimp Little Boys To Stoned Afghan Cops (http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2010/12/wikileaks_texas_company_helped.php)

[XenoKratios]

Who's coming with me man??

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

[kaze369]

WikiLeaks Reveals That Military Contractors Have Not Lost Their Taste For Child Prostitutes (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/08/wikileaks-reveals-that-mi_n_793816.html)

another reason why we need wikileaks.

[oXYnary]

This is to tell Joe Lieberman to stick it where the sun don't shine for trying to extradite him from England as a supposed terrorist.

http://act.demandprogress.org/act/wikileaks/?akid=32.156360.9fLVFp&rd=1&source=e1&t=1

[dejawolf]

you just know those guys who want assange dead has a few skeletons in their closets...

[Hugh]

With groups like Razor1911 backing wikileaks as well as botnet DDOS attacks on the bank that froze the wikileaks account...It almost seems like a cyber/info war and the lines are being drawn.

Atleast I think it certainly seems like an interesting plot, governments against him, a background of cryptography and hacking. You have people debating what is right and wrong with what they(he) is doing.

The story has it's main character..is he a hero...a villian? Encrypted insurance files....the CIA... conspiracy..character assassination..companies bending to government pressure. Scandal, intrigue, sex, and drama....

When is the movie coming out?

wait so Razor1911 has a major role in the wikileaks story? i thought they just did torrents

[bbob]

Found this and thought this might be the place to share it:

http://fora.tv/2010/04/18/Logan_Symposium_The_New_Initiatives#fullprogram

Its quite long, but its chaptered well.

[Sixshot]

There's a difference between being a whistle-blower and publishing sensitive documents. There are things that I certainly think should be published, like the apache video. The people involved need to be held accountable, and there is no reason that anyone should be allowed to cover that up.

Some discretion is necessary, however. Just as we utilize secrecy and privacy in our daily lives to avoid conflict and deal with situations, the government has to be able to do the same. For example, the documents from Middle Eastern nations urging the U.S. to attack Iran? Nothing about those cables were illegal, and releasing them to the world poses a significant risk to the stability of the entire region. We're lucky that Iran hasn't gotten pissed yet and started shooting. There is absolutely no reason to release that document or any other jeopardizing the peace or safety of anyone.

Lastly, yeah, we spy on people. That's how we find out about things like terrorist plots. You never know where a threat might come from, so you spy on everyone, even if they're a UN diplomat. Get over it.

[Ferg]

Lastly, yeah, we spy on people. That's how we find out about things like terrorist plots. You never know where a threat might come from, so you spy on everyone, even if they're a UN diplomat. Get over it.

I think George Orwell just turned over about a million times in his grave... then his head exploded. Christ.

edit - nvm... reread your post and I hope you didn't mean what I initially thought you did.

[Sixshot]

I think George Orwell just turned over about a million times in his grave... then his head exploded. Christ.

edit - nvm... reread your post and I hope you didn't mean what I initially thought you did.

I didn't mean EVERYONE if that's what you thought. I meant other countries. It's good to know what everyone else is up to.

[Ferg]

yeah my bad, let the civilized discussion and occasional name-calling continue :)

[Tyler]

The moment Obama found out what happened:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDMBZWvPw20


Oh, theres a few petitions going around to save the guy from prison. No idea why he could get thrown in there, but I've signed a few in the hopes it makes a difference.

This world is turning into a bit of a hell-hole, especially recently. Might be time to invest my millions in an outerspace orbiting home :P

[Kewop Decam]

i love that Obama kicking the door open vid. It's fake, but it's awesome.

[MattQ86]

Who's coming with me man??

http://www.thevenusproject.com/

Is a man not entitled to the sweat on his brow a childishly idealized utopia and a waterslide made of chocolate?

[Mark Dygert]

Who's coming with me man??

http://www.thevenusproject.com/
I've seen how that ends...:poly141:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cudK8MwW64I/SMNNpYH7L-I/AAAAAAAAGAI/yuauy0uDFT4/s400/Waterworld-290x400.jpg

[XenoKratios]

Actually this is kind of a funny situation. What I posted was something I believe in and I shouldn't have (I wanna say ridicule but it wasen't that bad) posted that link under a line from half baked...

It's funny because Jacque always says how in United States no one believes in him and most just scorn him without knowing his work. In other countries he is praised for what he does and all the help he provides.

He just wants people to realize how life could be and how we should care more about our earths resources rathar than being pedant and live in a world where freedom is never truely realized.

I could go on and on but I can't tell you much more than what the website offers...

Here is his wikipedia page and a inerview he did back in 74.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacque_Fresco

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCH0BQ2nSMo

I don't want to take over this thread but all this wouldn't happen if we lived life like this :poly124:

[JacqueChoi]

I don't want to take over this thread but all this wouldn't happen if we lived life like this :poly124:

“Nothing dates faster than people’s fantasies about the future.”
- Robert Hughes

Here's a segment from the BBC documentary: Shock of the New's Segment about Brasilia.
The utopian dream of what the Brazilian Capital was supposed to be, and the practicality of it.
http://wn.com/Brasilia_Segment_from_The_Shock_of_the_New


Interesting read by the architect of this fallen utopia:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/12/brazil

[Tyler]

Actually this is kind of a funny situation. What I posted was something I believe in and I shouldn't have (I wanna say ridicule but it wasen't that bad) posted that link under a line from half baked...

It's funny because Jacque always says how in United States no one believes in him and most just scorn him without knowing his work. In other countries he is praised for what he does and all the help he provides.

He just wants people to realize how life could be and how we should care more about our earths resources rathar than being pedant and live in a world where freedom is never truely realized.

I could go on and on but I can't tell you much more than what the website offers...

Here is his wikipedia page and a inerview he did back in 74.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacque_Fresco

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCH0BQ2nSMo

I don't want to take over this thread but all this wouldn't happen if we lived life like this :poly124:

Who makes the rules? A culture without some form of gouverning / managing organisation would be utter chaos. If there isn't a political system, who then decides what happens to people who do bad things?

It might seem like a nice idea, and don't get me wrong, the eco side of things pleases me no end, but it just wouldn't work.

Anyway, i feel this is a discussion for another topic. Which i'd probably have a lot to say about xD

[XenoKratios]

“Nothing dates faster than people’s fantasies about the future.”
- Robert Hughes

Here's a segment from the BBC documentary: Shock of the New's Segment about Brasilia.
The utopian dream of what the Brazilian Capital was supposed to be, and the practicality of it.
http://wn.com/Brasilia_Segment_from_The_Shock_of_the_New


Interesting read by the architect of this fallen utopia:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/12/brazil

Sorry I haven't watched those videos, they are buffering as I type this. The quote you wrote doesn't really apply to this type of work, only because what he is saying is not fantasy, most of it could have been achieved 20-30 years ago.

Also, the Venus Project is not "utopia". (He says this in video 2 of his interview). It will change, it can change, it has to change, it's never perfect and nothing will ever will be in this regard.


Edit: I just watched that video and am about to read that article. This is another quote from that video :poly121:.

"This is what you get when you design for polital aspirations and not human needs."

I just skimmed through the article and it seems to me that the problem was: poor design, bad use of materials and just really terrible engineering. When people started pouring in to live in this community, they didn't advance, they just stayed the same, people got over crowded and it became a slum for the rich.

Who makes the rules? A culture without some form of gouverning / managing organisation would be utter chaos. If there isn't a political system, who then decides what happens to people who do bad things?

It might seem like a nice idea, and don't get me wrong, the eco side of things pleases me no end, but it just wouldn't work.

Anyway, i feel this is a discussion for another topic. Which i'd probably have a lot to say about xD

Man I want to answer these questions myself but I think the FAQ can do most of this :).

http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venus-project-introduction/faq

[Jesse Moody]

New cable got released today.. Had this image in it. Turns out it was the original campaign slogan but his people suggested a last minute change.

http://sirmitchell.tumblr.com/photo/1280/2150827754/1/tumblr_ld57s5LD9Z1qzlfum

[Joopson]

I think Wikileaks is a godsend. But not sent by god.
Sent by this weird guy.
We deserve to know what our government is doing; always.

If he goes to jail, our country will only fall to its doom that much quicker.

[JacqueChoi]

http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venus-project-introduction/faq

I'm very familiar with the so-called 'resource based economy'.

The problem with it, is that it does not account for human greed. It's essentially what communism is at it's core. And it's failed.

Doctors should get MORE resources because of the skills and knowledge they have over a waiter. If there were no monetary motivations, there would be far less doctors.


Keep in mind 'Money', was initially supposed to just be a legal tender in exchange for gold... a note in exchange for a resource.

BTW, China is the #1 economic superpower because of their manpower, not because of their natural resources.

[Tulkamir]

Heyo! There's a petition going on now, and it's important for people to show solidarity and support for wikileaks!

It may not be much, but I think every little bit helps.

http://www.avaaz.org/en/wikileaks_petition/?rc=fb

[XenoKratios]

I know what you're saying and I believe most of it JacqueChoi, but It's not about being a economic superpower, it's more about helping others while using the resources you have and advancing as TEAM HUMAN.

Will there be human greed if everything you need is there for you to use, for free? I think if someone wanted to be a doctor, a social helper, they could learn everything they needed from the vast information that is in our world today.

This would only be temp. until machines take over. Doctors usually look at a patient, observe their condition and treat it with their knowledge of past experiences involving that same condition, or use a resource (book, another doctor, etc.), I'm 100% sure a machine could do the same, and also do it much better than a human.

Take it a step further you could create a virtual world, like the MATRIX where one could input the information of ones brain and recreate them in new world.

We could do this for everyone who died until we could create another humanoid/machine type being (cyborg?) where we could input the information from the MATRIX (if they wanted to) and have them live in the "real" world. If we needed to learn more, we could simply download anything in seconds..

[Mark Dygert]

We could do this for everyone who died until we could create another humanoid/machine type being (cyborg?) where we could input the information from the MATRIX (if they wanted to) and have them live in the "real" world. If we needed to learn more, we could simply download anything in seconds..
and if someone thought that for the greater good people who thought certain thoughts needed to be purged from the system then they would be?
What if some traits where found to be a weakness and therefor a danger to the group?
What if in order to build a stronger future we needed to cull the more shallow weaker parts of the gene pool? Are those people sterilized and not allowed to procreate? Do they never get to experience being parents? Or do they raise someones genetically superior baby? Because they're deemed "weaker" are they looked down on and viewed as a subclass even if every law makes them equal?
What if even if you mange to clean everyone up and put them modern futuristic housing, they still managed to hold grudges, be influenced by mob mentality and still had dark sides.
What if later on some of those things where found to be the reverse? What if things didn't always go as planned?
What if people had to improvise after centuries of being bread not to? Do we keep a few free thinkers locked away in case we need some out of the box ideas?
What if people still grow old and die and this makes other people miserable? Do we enact a cerimony where everyone goes out on a good note at the age of 30, we tell them that everyone goes back into the great machine for a while to let someone else come out, if only there was enough room in utopia for everyone.

At the risk of invoking Godwin's law... there was a group that sought to do just that. It didn't go so well. It's been the subject and speculation of many books and think tanks also and often the chances of utopia being tainted runs high unless you remove humans from it.

There will always be conflict and there will always be mistakes, its how choose to deal with those two things that defines our future. We don't need to run away to specialized colonies where its members only. We just need to talk more, fight less and have some fuckin empathy for other people.

To quote my favorite punching bag:
I say let me never be complete
I say may I never be content
I say deliver me from Swedish furniture
I say deliver me from clever arts
I say deliver me from clear skin and perfect teeth
I say you have to give up
I say evolve and let the chips fall where they may

You have to realize that someday you will die
Until you know that you are useless

this is your life and its ending one min at a time.
There will always be people like Tyler Durden. I would be so bold as to say there is a little Durden in all of us and that to truly live in utopia we have to give that up. In doing so do we deny something that makes us who we are? If we see it as a useless weakness and we arrogantly purge it from ourselves and we find later that it was valuable and we do indeed need those pieces but they can't be retrieved... what then?

Best to get your head out of the clouds now and learn to deal with the imperfect people now because honestly the only way we are going to get to true utopia is to figure out how to work around our imperfections. We won't need grand plans or master architect deities, social engineering or even badly designed space yachts floating in front of crappy primative shaped mansions. BTW how much did they pay for those images because I could do a hell of a lot better and probably charge less... That would go a long way in creating my utopia

[XenoKratios]

But it's not running away at all.. and it's not a member only community. If someone was physiologically unfit, we could just throw him in the MATRIX? ahahah not like they're gonna die or anything, well they will, but probably just restart or something who knows?

As I said before, it's not a group, a member only colony, or anything that will separate people and create "tribes". It's TEAM HUMAN! If there is someone in the world that was wired differently (like a killer or something of that nature), I'm sure we could find a way to heal him.

There are rules, but they aren't anything that should be, or would be in forced because people would realize themselves.

I think the bigger question is: can we grow beyond thinking that "someone" has to make decisions for us?

There are going to be universities that study human behavior and will try to fix those problems as well, we cannot look the other way when it comes to that.

[Mark Dygert]

I guess I come at this very differently. I'll pause for a second and tell a story about a 3 people I know it will explain my position on this.

I know 3 deaf people, very talented artists.
1 is legally deaf but she can hear with super hearing aids but then its not so great.
2 and 3 have been deaf from birth and both have had chances to have major surgery done to "heal" or attempt to "restore" their hearing, they both declined and are now too old. Those procedures did work on 1 and it is why she is able to partial hear.

I've asked 2 & 3 if you could hear just like everyone else would you? No side effects no half hearing just wake up and bam you hear. They both say the same thing even though they are total opposites.

No.

So naturally I ask why, they both say they are normal people who don't need to be made whole. They communicate fine, have relationships, they drive cars and see movies there is nothing to fix because there is nothing broken they are who they are and they accept it.

Ahh but if they could just hear for a day then make the choice? Would they really say no?

1 says she didn't have a choice the window to do the procedures was when she was young and her parents opted to do it. They always viewed being deaf as a negative thing and worked tirelessly to help her hear and live a normal life, going to regular public school, not teaching her sign language, keeping her away from deaf devices because they thought they would hinder her normal development. Doctors said the tests showed that she could hear well enough with super hearing aids. She hears fine, there must be something else, she must be slower?

Truth was she really couldn't hear that well but she had learned to compensate in other ways that she was able to "cheat" the tests. She read body language she felt vibrations, in her head, in her chest she read expressions and lips pretty well. But was too young to articulate what she was hearing, what was normal hearing to her? If they said that was normal, ok thats what everyone else normally heard. It must be something else.

Because they tried to force a normal life on her they made things harder. When she was 12 they "gave up" it was a big deal as if she was giving up on being normal. They enrolled her in a deaf school, she got the tools that normal deaf people have access too, she caught up and excelled, graduated from college and is an amazing artist. Most of the time doesn't wear the aids. Even though there have been good improvements and she's had more procedures done since then. She says its worse knowing that what she hears is not great. She looks back and wonders what if they had just not gone through it all.

But she never really hears perfectly?

My point is to get to utopia you have to break some eggs and make some really hard choices. In utopia will people feel a pressure to be normal and fit in will that pressure lead to bad choices that actually cause misery instead of a normal life?

You say if someone is a murder then we find a way to fix them, or we plug them into the matrix?
What if they never murder anyone and you find that they have a trait that could possibly lead to them murdering someone in the future?
What if they don't want to go do you force it on them in order to keep the peace of the greater good? Who enforces those rules?
How do you keep everyone in line?
How do you deal with decent?


Anytime you define a code or a set of rules there has to be some way to enforce them. I point to Rome and specifically Nero where most of societies problems where taken care of. The life of leisure lead to debauchery and all kinds of seriously freaky abuses of power. What if people get bored and start acting out...

[Arac]

I'm very familiar with the so-called 'resource based economy'.

The problem with it, is that it does not account for human greed. It's essentially what communism is at it's core. And it's failed.

Doctors should get MORE resources because of the skills and knowledge they have over a waiter. If there were no monetary motivations, there would be far less doctors.


That is probably one of the most common misconceptions about communism / socialism.

“To each according to his contribution is considered by some Marxists and other socialists as a characteristic of society directly following the transition to socialism, but preceding the final step to communism. This essentially means that people are rewarded based on the amount they contribute to the social product.

The term means simply that each worker in a socialist society receives wages and benefits according to the quantity and value of the labor that he or she contributed. This translates into workers of high productivity receiving more wages and benefits than workers of average productivity, and substantially more than workers of low productivity. An extension of this principle could also be made so that the more difficult one's job is - whether this difficulty is derived from greater training requirements, job intensity, safety hazards, etc. - the more one is rewarded for the labor contributed. The purpose of the principle, as Trotsky would later state, is to promote productivity. This is done by creating incentives to work harder, longer, and more productively. The principle is ultimately a stowaway from capitalism that, according to Marx, will vanish as work becomes more automated and enjoyable, and goods become available in abundance.”

You can read the rest here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_each_according_to_his_contribution


And about people being to greedy, I think you have to make the distinction between selfishness and self-interest.

I find it Ironic that the same pro-capitalist ideologues who preach that people are too “greedy” for socialism who then turn around to demand workers “tighten their belts for the common good”� whenever they want to lower our wages, lay us off, or cut our social programs.

[Ride]

That is probably one of the most common misconceptions about communism / socialism.

“To each according to his contribution is considered by some Marxists and other socialists as a characteristic of society directly following the transition to socialism, but preceding the final step to communism. This essentially means that people are rewarded based on the amount they contribute to the social product.

The term means simply that each worker in a socialist society receives wages and benefits according to the quantity and value of the labor that he or she contributed. This translates into workers of high productivity receiving more wages and benefits than workers of average productivity, and substantially more than workers of low productivity. An extension of this principle could also be made so that the more difficult one's job is - whether this difficulty is derived from greater training requirements, job intensity, safety hazards, etc. - the more one is rewarded for the labor contributed. The purpose of the principle, as Trotsky would later state, is to promote productivity. This is done by creating incentives to work harder, longer, and more productively. The principle is ultimately a stowaway from capitalism that, according to Marx, will vanish as work becomes more automated and enjoyable, and goods become available in abundance.”

You can read the rest here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_each_according_to_his_contribution


And about people being to greedy, I think you have to make the distinction between selfishness and self-interest.

I find it Ironic that the same pro-capitalist ideologues who preach that people are too “greedy” for socialism who then turn around to demand workers “tighten their belts for the common good”� whenever they want to lower our wages, lay us off, or cut our social programs.

To each according to his contribution indeed, but it rarely - if ever, stops at that, now does it?

Seems like like socialism is the next big thing in America and the rest of the world - something that hot-headed youngsters will bring up at the slighest sign of cracks in the current form of goverment. It's conceived as the awnsers to all of their prayers, yet they do not fully understand it and what it will bring about. I belive Dostoevsky and Solzhenitsyn called them the "Little Devils", gullible borderline radicals who are instrumental is bringing such a form of goverment into power.

Needless to say i've experienced socialism most of my life, i live in Sweden - probably one of the most socialist states there were. While it is not bad, it is not good either. Socialism not only changes the economic model of the nation, as many people seem to belive, but culturally, morally and ethically aswell. The amount of apathy, lack of economic growth and domestication it brings about alone is enough to put a nation on it's knees, not to mention the subversive and corrosive social engineering being forced upon the people.

Once you've adopted socialism you'll continously walk a fine line between it, and cultural-marxism. This is when you'r society gets twisted into a clusterfuck of reality absent norms: Black is white, good is bad, family has no value, men are to be as women, women are to be as men, identity is nonexistent and so on. Naturally you don't get to hear about these things.

It's kinda like the matrix, you can't be told what it is, you will have to see/live it for yourself. :poly121:
As for real communism; Slavery under a small priveleged elite, packaged and sold to the ignorant as equality, selflessness or whatever mantra people use to defend it with.

All in all be careful what you wish for.

[xvampire]

maybe not directly related to cablegate, but
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub4bPZy376Y

but this is the coolest campaign ever.

[Mark Dygert]

Seems like like socialism is the next big thing in America and the rest of the world - something that hot-headed youngsters will bring up at the slighest sign of cracks in the current form of goverment. It's conceived as the awnsers to all of their prayers, yet they do not fully understand it and what it will bring about. Naahh its mostly stinky old Faux News using it to point out what has failed in Europe and scare old people into voting against their own best interest.

It's that Obama, he's going to socialize everything just like we socialized the financial collapse.... whispers just like HE socialized the financial collapse.

BTW tax cuts for the rich, love it! Love you, merry Christmas! You all rock! 2012! We'll suck you dry! whispers We're really high! whispers I mean we're ridding high!

[Arac]

To each according to his contribution indeed, but it rarely - if ever, stops at that, now does it?

Seems like like socialism is the next big thing in America and the rest of the world - something that hot-headed youngsters will bring up at the slighest sign of cracks in the current form of goverment. It's conceived as the awnsers to all of their prayers, yet they do not fully understand it and what it will bring about. I belive Dostoevsky and Solzhenitsyn called them the "Little Devils", gullible borderline radicals who are instrumental is bringing such a form of goverment into power.

Needless to say i've experienced socialism most of my life, i live in Sweden - probably one of the most socialist states there were. While it is not bad, it is not good either. Socialism not only changes the economic model of the nation, as many people seem to belive, but culturally, morally and ethically aswell. The amount of apathy, lack of economic growth and domestication it brings about alone is enough to put a nation on it's knees, not to mention the subversive and corrosive social engineering being forced upon the people.

Once you've adopted socialism you'll continously walk a fine line between it, and cultural-marxism. This is when you'r society gets twisted into a clusterfuck of reality absent norms: Black is white, good is bad, family has no value, men are to be as women, women are to be as men, identity is nonexistent and so on. Naturally you don't get to hear about these things.

It's kinda like the matrix, you can't be told what it is, you will have to see/live it for yourself. :poly121:
As for real communism; Slavery under a small priveleged elite, packaged and sold to the ignorant as equality, selflessness or whatever mantra people use to defend it with.

All in all be careful what you wish for.

I was in no way advocating the kind of reformist socialism you have had in Sweden. And I seriously doubt real socialism is the next big thing in America :p

I think you should make a clear distinction between true socialism, the first phase of communism, and a government with socialist ideas operating in a capitalist system, like in Sweden. Because as far as I know, Sweden has always had a free market? Eventhough, your claims that it has slowed economic growth sounds like BS, because economic growth in Sweden has been on the same upward trend as Germany for the past decades (current crisis not included). Apart from that your

And real communism is the opposite of what you claim: It's a stateless and classless society.

What you describe as real communism, “Slavery under a small privileged elite, packaged and sold to the ignorant as equality”, to me sounds more like what we are experiencing today.

[Ride]

I was in no way advocating the kind of reformist socialism you have had in Sweden. And I seriously doubt real socialism is the next big thing in America :p

I think you should make a clear distinction between true socialism, the first phase of communism, and a government with socialist ideas operating in a capitalist system, like in Sweden. Because as far as I know, Sweden has always had a free market? Eventhough, your claims that it has slowed economic growth sounds like BS, because economic growth in Sweden has been on the same upward trend as Germany for the past decades (current crisis not included). Apart from that your

And real communism is the opposite of what you claim: It's a stateless and classless society.

What you describe as real communism, “Slavery under a small privileged elite, packaged and sold to the ignorant as equality”, to me sounds more like what we are experiencing today.

Naturally i never meant to describe us as being true socialist, yet given western standards we pretty much are. I admit to 'lack of economic growth' being a bad choice of words, perhaps individual standards would be better.

Pure communism is a stateless and classless society, i said real communism. By that i mean the type of communistic model that has been established thus far throughout history, where the state is god - a despotic dystopia under the guise of equality. Again, perhaps a bad choice of words.

As for socialism in America, perhaps unlikely but you never know :\. People are pissed, they want something new in order to punish the current rascals in power and the bandwagon seems to be heading for the far-left.

[Snefer]

To each according to his contribution indeed, but it rarely - if ever, stops at that, now does it?

Seems like like socialism is the next big thing in America and the rest of the world - something that hot-headed youngsters will bring up at the slighest sign of cracks in the current form of goverment. It's conceived as the awnsers to all of their prayers, yet they do not fully understand it and what it will bring about. I belive Dostoevsky and Solzhenitsyn called them the "Little Devils", gullible borderline radicals who are instrumental is bringing such a form of goverment into power.

Needless to say i've experienced socialism most of my life, i live in Sweden - probably one of the most socialist states there were. While it is not bad, it is not good either. Socialism not only changes the economic model of the nation, as many people seem to belive, but culturally, morally and ethically aswell. The amount of apathy, lack of economic growth and domestication it brings about alone is enough to put a nation on it's knees, not to mention the subversive and corrosive social engineering being forced upon the people.

Once you've adopted socialism you'll continously walk a fine line between it, and cultural-marxism. This is when you'r society gets twisted into a clusterfuck of reality absent norms: Black is white, good is bad, family has no value, men are to be as women, women are to be as men, identity is nonexistent and so on. Naturally you don't get to hear about these things.

It's kinda like the matrix, you can't be told what it is, you will have to see/live it for yourself. :poly121:
As for real communism; Slavery under a small priveleged elite, packaged and sold to the ignorant as equality, selflessness or whatever mantra people use to defend it with.

All in all be careful what you wish for.

Wait...what? What other countries have you lived in? Honestly, the standard of EVERYTHING in sweden is higher than any other country ive been to basically :P Theres alot of problems in sweden, but quality of life is not one of them. Immigration and prize of alcohol, maybe ^^

[Bigjohn]

Wait...what? What other countries have you lived in? Honestly, the standard of EVERYTHING in sweden is higher than any other country ive been to basically :P Theres alot of problems in sweden, but quality of life is not one of them. Immigration and prize of alcohol, maybe ^^

Yes, that may be true, Sweden may have a high quality of life, but that quality of life is paid for with what's in essence bullshit economics, a pyramid scheme. Sweden isn't unique in that of course, pretty much all modern countries are run that way.

But that's the problem with all pyramid schemes. They eventually collapse.

There was a time when the American economy was the envy of the world. But it was built up during the 20th century on voodoo economics that pay for things now by going into debt. At some point in time that debt is due. In the US we're getting to that point right now.

Sweden may be fine for now, with high quality of life and all. But don't expect that to last forever. Someone eventually will have to flip the bill.

[teaandcigarettes]

Wait...what? What other countries have you lived in? Honestly, the standard of EVERYTHING in sweden is higher than any other country ive been to basically :P Theres alot of problems in sweden, but quality of life is not one of them. Immigration and prize of alcohol, maybe ^^

Ok, I read your location and couldn't help laughing. No wonder you feel like that when you live in Poland :poly142: It's cold, grey and everything smells like piss; I would know, I was born in its shittiest region. Give yourself a few months more and you'll end up bitter just as everyone else :poly124:

One thing I miss are prices of cigarettes. £2 for a pack of Marlboro's? Yes please.

[Snefer]

Ok, I read your location and couldn't help laughing. No wonder you feel like that when you live in Poland :poly142: It's cold, grey and everything smells like piss; I would know, I was born in its shittiest region. Give yourself a few months more and you'll end up bitter just as everyone else :poly124:

One thing I miss are prices of cigarettes. £2 for a pack of Marlboro's? Yes please.

Well, I have lived in sweden in almost my entire life, but I have been to alot of countries, and worked abroad aswell. :P And nah, I live in warsaw, and my standard of livinghere is actually waay higher than it was in sweden :P So...naaah :D

also, if you think Poland is cold and grey..you should visit sweden. Its like poland. But colder, and more gray.

[Calabi]

Something some guy said once. Probably not relevant anymore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhZk8ronces

[SnowInChina]

seriously
even now, when i read news, not only news from germany, but from different countrys
i get really sad about all that shit thats going on
if i were to know everything whats going on i could never be happy anymore

i propably will never understand why people are so fucking rotten on the inside

despite this little rant. i think it´s a good thing what wikileaks is doing
maybe some decissions will not be made because they get afraid of what will happen if it gets leaked

[Mark Dygert]

i propably will never understand why people only report on what is so fucking rotten on the inside.
Fixed. No one reports on nice, nice is boring, nice is average... as in like the majority of the people on the planet. It's easy to get a skewed focus if you only ever read or see news that is designed to catch your attention in the easiest way possible.

Switch your news diet to something that serves up more science, tech and art. Sadly the best source for that I've found is NPR, PBS and other educational networks that are "publicly funded" or soon to be de-funded if certain members of congress have their way.

Anywho more science, tech and art than poltics will do ya good. You'll get a little bit more positive thoughtful reporting. Stay on the fast food news diet and only eat politics and gossip, you're going to live a shorter life.

[Bigjohn]

Fixed. No one reports on nice, nice is boring, nice is average... as in like the majority of the people on the planet. It's easy to get a skewed focus if you only ever read or see news that is designed to catch your attention in the easiest way possible.

Switch your news diet to something that serves up more science, tech and you'll get a little bit more positive thoughtful reporting. Stay on the fast food news diet and only eat politics and gossip, you're going to live a shorter life.

Yes! This did me wonders. I included much more sci/tech in google-news, and less OMG TUNE IN TO FOX-NEWS AT 11 TO SEE HOW THE WORLD WILL END stuff, which is mostly bull anyways.

[XenoKratios]

I really can't explain what I wanted to more and steal this thread, but what I said mostly wasen't really noted (IMO), which makes sense because this is not the right thread.

The resources are there, we are the ones who have to take them and change our world from what it is to what it could be.

Again let me say this:
The Venus Project is NOT a Utopia, no one is forced to do anything, if you want to be deaf, awesome. If you want to hear, and we have the tech. go ahead.

Nothing is forced. When you reach this point you will realize that all these small issues are useless and not worth doing at all!

The MATRIX stuff is what I feel could be awesome, not Jacque, Me. It would probably never be that way, but it would be cool to realize it.

If someone IS a murderer and has tendencies to kill, why not put them in the MATRIX rather than having them kill?

When we reach the level of the Venus Project all the hard questions we cannot answer today will be the easiest of them all.

Also... why would you want utopia? I WANT problems, so I can fix them.

I am probably not the best advocate for Jacque, the best thing to do would be to become more pro-active towards this and read/listen/watch what this amazing 94 year old has to say.

[SnakeDoctor]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikileaks.png

[Justin Meisse]

seriously
even now, when i read news, not only news from germany, but from different countrys
i get really sad about all that shit thats going on
if i were to know everything whats going on i could never be happy anymore

That's why I listen to Radio Lab:
http://www.radiolab.org/2010/dec/14/i-need-a-hero/

"Is there such a thing as a purely selfless deed--one with no hidden motives whatsoever? Walter F. Rutkowski from the Carnegie Hero Fund spends his days measuring good deeds by some very stringent criteria--such as risking your life "to an extraordinary degree while saving or attempting to save the life of another person." We got in touch with three of these bona fide heroes to ask what went through their minds the moment they leapt into action. The heroes: Lora Shrake (who squared off with a 950-pound bull); Bill Pennell (who repeatedly dove into a burning car for survivors); and Wesley Autrey (who jumped in front of a subway train to save a fellow rider)."

[oXYnary]

Anywho more science, tech and art than poltics will do ya good. You'll get a little bit more positive thoughtful reporting. Stay on the fast food news diet and only eat politics and gossip, you're going to live a shorter life.

Are we listening/reading the same thing? Or its just interpretation? I do all that and I come back with..

WHY THE FUCK ARE PEOPLE REPRODUCING/HAVING KIDS IN THIS? Its like *fuck* *fuck* "Ive reproduced! Yaeee! My Gene Line goes on!" Who cares if the kids are going to be stuck with a lower quality of living that's possibly going to get worse because we were too narcissistic to change.

Ok this is overboard, but I feel like this sometimes. Even with responsible parents.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uneIieUrgI

[Bigjohn]

The CIA starts a new taskforce with an epic name, the WTF. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/21/AR2010122104599.html?hpid=topnews)

Which, of course, stands for Wikileaks Task Force. Either they're really dumb, or really good at picking names.

[Two Listen]

Haha, that's nice. I like how the CIA's first concern is "Crap, ok guys - we've got to see if other countries still think we're good at keeping secrets from our general populace."

WTF indeed...

[Dean]

Also... why would you want utopia? I WANT problems, so I can fix them.

Exactly. Having a Utopia is impossible as it would mean we have achieved perfection and we all know that perfection does not exist. We are constantly improving, debunking and replacing old ideas, mechanisms and so on. To have Utopia would mean the end of progress and evolution.

As you mentioned, Jacque himself has stated that the VP is no Utopia but, and I quote: "it is just lot better".

We are not living in a system that is based around human needs, but rather around the profit motive and that is the root cause of so many problems today. How can we honestly allow ourselves to live in a world where greed and suffering for the motive of profit and personal gain is not only legal, but encouraged? Why for example, are (US) hospitals allowed to kick people out (even drugged and disoriented) when they can't cough up the money they need for care? [See Michael Moore's "Capitalism: A Love Story]. Simple answer, because it cuts costs and saves the hospital money.

We are putting a simple material object, money, a man made construct with absolutely no intrinsic value and relationship to nature, ahead of human well-being. How can someone NOT see that that is wrong on so many levels?

EDIT: In an attempt to make my post somewhat more on-topic, I'll just say that I do think what Wikileaks is doing can be justified and is needed. As long as there is corruption and wrong doing (which will honestly be, realistically speaking, always), it should be exposed. Even if this means there will be damage to those responsible or involved.