Hand painted Bonner orc WIP

[Saman]

Hello!
Here is an orc I've been working on. It's an orc inspired by Paul Bonner's fantasy art. I need critique on this one so if you have any please tell me.
http://www.goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100912.jpg

[Davision3D]

I really like Paul Bonners art, its like a master you are going after.
It looks good but the skin comes out more like wax to me. You have very saturated dark tones there that makes it look like that. Try to push the muscle shapes more with darker not so aturated colors. You should also check then if the muscles are really correct that way, the abs for instance look just like 1 big plate on his belly.
Paul Bonner has lot of details going on in his works, so i think he can use some more stuff that hes wearing. You could for instance add some fabric frazzle and bands around his arms in the texture without having to change the mesh.

[Saman]

Thanks for the feedback, Davision3D. I reduced the saturation of the texture and I changed the abs. I'll be adding more details. Thanks!
http://www.goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100912-2.jpg

[catstyle]

awesomes choice of choices ! i am a fellow fan of the bonner

the highlights and shading looks good in some areas, but it's all crying out for more colour variation imo

im thinking the middle of the upper arm biceps/triceps needs more a of a punch outwards to the silhouette. i'd also try and make his torso feel a little less box like

digging it though, looking forward to updates

[Visceral]

Looks sweet man, really glad you stray from the "default green orc" look.

[Saman]

Thanks alot, guys, I'm glad you like it.
I added some bracers as Davision3d suggested and I reshaped his waist a bit. I changed the textures a bit too so some parts are more pushed out now. I'll be working on improving the bracers as well as the accessories as well since I haven't spent a lot of time on those yet.
What do you think?
http://www.goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100912-3.jpg

[Klumpmeister]

That is a very unique looking Orc! I was thinking this would be the stereotypical Orc everyone knows and loves but you definitely made this your own.

[Saman]

That is a very unique looking Orc! I was thinking this would be the stereotypical Orc everyone knows and loves but you definitely made this your own.
I appreciate the compliment but it's not my own. It's Bonner's ;)
http://www.paulbonner.net/

[shotgun]

This is coming along well.

The aforementioned waxy-ness is not a result of the saturated colors so much as it is of the highlights u removed. Some touches of deeper brown/orange would add some flair to his skin tone, and certainly more color. Apply some reds liberally around his nose / eyes / ears, magenta to his hands and purples to his legs. Maybe spice-up that belt with some deep orange touches.

The cloth has dark lines too thick compared to the detail-level of the rest of the model.

Also, the face should get the lightest tones, not the shoulders.

[P442]

looks cool, but i think its too beigy/brown.

[Saman]

Thanks for the feedback, shotgun and p442. I changed the color of the orc to a more orange color. I also added some red color around his eyes, ears and nose as well as his fingers, toes and legs. I appreciate all the feedback, guys, it's been helping me a lot!
Please tell me what you think.
http://www.goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100912-4.jpg

[haikai]

Some nice details on here so far. Bonner Orcs are cool. http://www.polycount.com/forum/images/smilies/pcount/icons/poly120.gif This should be really cool once it's finished.

I guess the things that stand out to me are some contrast issues:

The shadows under his arms and on the side of his torso are very dark. Same with between his legs (almost showing up completely black on my monitor).

One of the best advice I ever got about painting (and I need to do it more myself) is to not let the interior shading override how the overall form reads. Right now the contrast between the high and low points of the shoulder muscles (and in a few other areas) make it feel like the bulges are way bigger than you might have intended. The extreme highlights kind of make it feel like he's glowing beneath his skin which may be the waxiness others have referred to.

The anatomy of the abdomen and back look a little odd to me, and his pants look a little too skin tight. I agree with Shotgun in that the face should probably be highlighted more than the rest somehow, whether it be by darkening the rest a bit and/or reserving the most contrast for the face.

[Saman]

@haikai: I removed most of the highlights from the muscles as well as all the pitch black areas. I'm just showing a quick update on the front... does it look less waxy?
http://www.goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100913.jpg

[haikai]

Hey, yea, I think that's looking a lot more natural now. :) It's looking good!

[Saman]

Cheers, Haikai. I switched references from Bonner's web-portfolio to his book that I recently purchased. The book makes his paintings a lot more justice and the colors are easier to follow. I've only been working on the muscles today and some on the pants. Please tell me what you think, guys;
http://www.goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100913-2.jpg

[P442]

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a261/plaski/bonnerorc_color_test.jpg
still feel there is not enough contrast in the skin tone and the pants color. they are both a similar hue. looked at some bonner artwork and pushed the skin tone more orange, and picked a random contrasting color for the clothes. just an example

[Saman]

Thanks for the feedback, P442. I changed the skin color to something more orangy and darkened all the cloth pieces. I also increased the contrast on the skin;
http://www.goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100914.jpg

[crasong]

New colors are definitely better! If you don't mind, could you post some wires please?

Thanks!

[chrisradsby]

Adding a bit more noise to the skin might actually help, try it out :) Subtle though.

[catstyle]

get some cooler subtle tones in the shadows, blues and purples to compliment the orange and yellows

[Ged]

looking good, totally agree with catstyle tho

get some cooler subtle tones in the shadows, blues and purples to compliment the orange and yellows

[eric.]

Yeah man, looks nice! I agree with catstyle. Dont forget that Bonner often uses blue/purple tones for the ears and nose. Try to push the values a little further using catstyles advice, to make the muscles pop a little more :)

And yeah, some wires and flats would be nice to see :)

Keep it up man!

[Saman]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I'm at work now so I can't give you any update at this time. Actually blue colors was something I wanted to add but didn't know where to add it, good thing you gave me that advice about the shadows, catstyle, I entirely forgot about different colored shadows. I tried adding some blue war paint around his eyes and ears but it didn't look very good, I might add some later though.
Do you think the muscle anatomy looks strange ? I'm thinking of changing the muscles on the shoulder a bit. I know it's an orc and you could say that orcs have a different anatomy than humen but I still want to create believable forms to his body.
I'll post some wireframes when I get home.
Thanks, guys!

[SkyGround]

About blue light - i dont know how in sounds right in english - counter-light - add contrast cold light on down side - like blue omni placed on floor )
We have same style like AllodOnline, I can show you some images from document that we show freelancers, but only on PM/icq.

[Saman]

About blue light - i dont know how in sounds right in english - counter-light - add contrast cold light on down side - like blue omni placed on floor )
We have same style like AllodOnline, I can show you some images from document that we show freelancers, but only on PM/icq.
Do you mean something that would theoretically be color bleeding from the ground? I think I understand what you mean, if you've signed an NDA it would probably be better not to share your stuff yet. :O

[SkyGround]

Do you mean something that would theoretically be color bleeding from the ground? I think I understand what you mean, if you've signed an NDA it would probably be better not to share your stuff :S

No, there is no ane NDA, just not for public showing, we shared it with friends colleagues.

Not sure about color bleeding.
It helps to show details in shadows without adding dark colors

[Saman]

Hello!
Here is the wireframe;
http://www.goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100914-wireframe.jpg

[HntrLuc]

Nice work so far. I agree a bit of color variation would help push this a bit further.
You also might consider painting in more lighting information. I'm not sure if how you're planning to present this finished, but painting in some directional light usually helps things read/pop a bit more. Painting in shadows under "3d" (whether they're 3d or just textured in) objects usually looks pretty nice too (like under the belt for example).

hope you don't mind a quick paintover to illustrate my point.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1427110/bonner.gif

[Saman]

Ah, thanks! I was a bit hesitant of adding a light source at the moment because I figured that was what got it waxy. But your paintover looks great.
How does that work in game though? Won't it look strange when not outside? Also I see that you added some pitch-black areas, shouldn't I stay away from those?

[Saman]

Another update. I added the blue bleeding from below, tell me what you think. Is it too much or should I increase it even more? Thanks
http://www.goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100914-2.jpg

Edit: Oh yeah, almost forgot. The belt's shadow can't be painted on the character since his whole body has been mirrored so the shadow would appear on both sides of his chest . What do you guys think about applying an occlusion layer on top?

[haikai]

Ah, thanks! I was a bit hesitant of adding a light source at the moment because I figured that was what got it waxy. But your paintover looks great.
How does that work in game though? Won't it look strange when not outside? Also I see that you added some pitch-black areas, shouldn't I stay away from those?

I may have unintentionally misled you a bit in my previous feedback. Shadows and light sources are definitely okay on diffuse painted models, but I personally would avoid having completely black (and white for that matter) areas. It looks like you removed most of your shadows after my post. I think it's perfectly okay to go with the idea of trying to make your model look good on the screen as if it were a 2d image. FirstKeeper's Sylvanas model (one of the banner images on this site) is a great example of this, and you should check her texture flats to see just how much lighting and shadows she has painted. As for how much is too much, that kind of depends on the art direction, but for diffuse painted models it may be better to err on the side of too much than too little.

I'm not sure about the blue under lighting you've added in your recent update. It doesn't come across as lighting at the moment. I would go for something a bit more neutral. Remember that it could just be a cooler version of the color that's already on there rather than slapping on another layer with a pure cool color. When in doubt, the best idea is probably to look for references on that kind of lighting.

[Saman]

Cool, I didn't know that you had replied here so I missed your advice, haikai. I re-added the shadows however and reduced the lighting slightly. I rigged him in a better pose too. What do you think?
http://goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100917.jpg

[Saman]

Ok, here is the latest update. I removed the blue lighting areas and colored the shadows more blue(I don't know if all of them are noticeable). I reduced the darker shadows too so they aren't entirely black. I also added the texture flat in this update so you can critique that as well.
But I'm gonna call this done unless you have more critique. Hope you like it.
http://www.goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100917-2.jpg

[Jungsik]

hehe i like hes eyes :P is it just the lighting? your model looks a little too dark <_<

[Saman]

I brightened up some parts of the texture and fixed his eyes. I updated the latest image.

[Rafael Rojas]

wow, it looks fantastic :D but you should smooth it a little it.

[Saman]

wow, it looks fantastic :D but you should smooth it a little it.
I'm glad you like it, Rafael. But do you mean smoothing out the mesh or the texture?

[shotgun]

I dont think the texture needs to be smoothed in any way.
The main disadvantages of it are:
- Inconsistent lighting: u've got the lower body in shade - but the upper body not in light. Muscle definitions r too dark and read as "holes" in flesh cuz lack of balancing (high)lights.
- Limited palette: I've ruined the "raggedy" look but I hope it opens some views in ur mind for implementing color.
- Too thick / dark edges of cloth wraps... I've mentioned this b4.
- Head should be lightest.

http://shotgun-graphics.com/postage/groaaa.gif

edit1: thanks Zac.
edit2: light on left foot was cut in half... dunno

[ZacD]

awesome paint over shotgun

[Spug]

awesome paint over shotgun

/agree

[Saman]

Hello
Thanks for the paint over, shotgun. I used it to redo a lot of the painting. I hope I'm on the right direction. A few heads up before you criticise the lighting direction though; I'm using mirrored UV's for both sides of the model so I couldn't apply the shadows from the belt for example.
http://goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100919.jpg

[shotgun]

That's fine (the belt shadows). U could, however, add drop-shadow from the head.

This looks much better, imo. A lot more massive. Now u've gotta get in there and push the harder edges & the texture details back in - like the hands. Roughen him up a bit.

Also, play with some more colors. Ur core shadows generally have the most saturation so take some random swatch @ ~20% saturation & ~50% brightness and hard-light brush some areas. See if that worx.

Also2 (if u really wonna push harder :) apply the lighting & color principles to the accessories as well.

Good work.

[Saman]

Thanks for the help, shotgun. I darkened the skin a bit to make it look like your over paint better. I've been applying the same light direction to the accessories now and I regret not using different UV's for some of the duplicated accessories. I also changed the shadow color of more areas to a blue'ish color, I tried your suggestion but couldn't really figure out how you meant... The color swatch I got from the settings you suggested were a bit too bright. Was I to use that color on the shadows?
I'm posting an update but I'm not finished with it yet, still have more details to fix. Also please critique any errors you may see because I'm about to finalize it.
I appreciate all the help you're giving me, guys. I feel that I've improved A LOT!
http://goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100920.jpg
Edit: Oh yeah, should the palm of his hand be darker than the rest of the hand or brighter? I'm thinking that the palm usually has a brighter skin color but from this pose his hands will probably be darker because of the shadows(light hits the other side of his left hand). Should I darken them?

[Saman]

Another update. Honest critique is as usual very welcome;
http://goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100925.jpg

[Barnstable]

That's looking like a Paul Bonner Ork witch means it looks really good.

Maybe a bit monochromatic though. It could use a bit of color variation in places. For instance just a slight hint of red or purple, or green in the lips, and ears, knuckles, etc...

[shotgun]

Yes this is much better. Not only the details but also the edges r tighter. The arm-rags r also a huge improvement. Why not make the rest of the fabric-stuff the same? Maybe a slightly different hue as well? More color variation would kick this up.

Generally, ur mid-tones should be more saturated, like the pec muscle is. That area should be ur reference for the rest of the flesh, with maybe a softer highlight.

Also - once again - keep ur brightest highlight and/or highest contrast on the focal point (e.i. the face). Ur shoulder still gets too much prominence.

Also2 - now that u'r into the final detailing - more of that tribal tatoo could look great on the rest of the body, altho u'd have to make sure the face-tatoo remains the most prominent as it's rather small right now.

[Snowfly]

Shotgun's got some pretty good tips, and great progress so far!

My overall feeling about this guy is, he shapes like a Bonner orc, but isn't colored like one. Too slick and new, Bonner's orcs have a very chalky, dusty feel to them, with little spots of intense color: http://i39.tinypic.com/16jrcr8.jpg

I did a little paintover with some ideas I had on how you can achieve that ratty Bonner look-
http://i56.tinypic.com/nn8m7d.jpg

[Saman]

Thanks a lot for the feedback, and thanks for the paint-over, snowfly. I tried using your PO as reference when I made the changes. I'm not done yet but I'm posting an update to see what you think and see if I'm on the right direction. Should I make his legs' backside more purple'ish too like the rest of the body? I noticed that you didn't paint that on the PO but I figured it would make more sense? Also I added some more sooty areas to make it look like the image you linked, don't know if it's good though... I could remove it.
As for the tribal tattoos/paint; I was thinking of adding something to his shoulders but I don't know what to paint. I checked all of Bonner's paintings from Rackham but the orcs only have painting in their faces and ears. Any suggestions?
Thanks again!
http://goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100927.jpg
Edit: I made some changes, I changed the color of the back side of the leg for instance.

[Saman]

Ok, I found some cool shapes on the armor of the orcs and decided that I could use that as war-paint for the shoulders. I'm not really sure about it. What do you think?
http://goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100928_shoulderpaint.jpg

[shotgun]

Funny, this is exactly the shape I had in mind. As I warned u - it overwhelms the face-tatoo, so either make the face's bigger or break-up the spiral into smaller shapes no bigger than the face's, so its less dominant.
Also, watch ur edge consistency: the shoulder-tatoo is sharper than anything else, so u better fuzz-it-up.

[Saman]

Cool! Ok, I added some more paint to his face around his eyes and ears. I changed the color of the shoulder paint to the same blue color as the rest(Still keeping the white stripes). What do you think?
http://goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100928_shoulderpaint2.jpg

[shotgun]

Yes, this is nice. Now u a) certainly need to punch up the orange on the arm-cloth (see snowfly's excellent PO) and b) blend the tatoo with the body rendering, it's seemingly a flat color.

[marq4porsche]

Very nice!! This is the best update so far, now add some imperfections to the skin like the last paintover and you'd be golden!

[Saman]

Thanks guys! Here is another update. I added some dirt and stuff on the whole model to make it look grittier. I'm not sure about the sun damage on his back though, I did try it and it didn't look right.
http://goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100930.jpg

[Ged]

looking good, really black under his arms? and Im not sure about that tattoo colour it seems rather similar to bruising so I keep thinking hes been punched in the eyes or something

[Saman]

Thanks, ged. I made the shadows under his arms a bit brighter and removed the blue paint from under his eyes. It looks a bit less like bruising now I hope?
http://goraaz.se/bonnerorc_100930_2.jpg

[glottis8]

Looking pretty solid. Have you thought about painting more detail on his skin instead of being so shaded? Like scales, or dry skin... and marks from running barefoot... twigs brushing against his legs... things like that that give him more personality from what he does. It's looking great! keep up the good work.

[shotgun]

Some colors ideas - might be a little WoWy for u but hey!
http://shotgun-graphics.com/postage/goaaa3-4.gif
Point is - build up ur layers of color more noticeably, so if u've gotta add light to the tatoo (reflecting the light on his shoulder) add it with color, something more substantial than a soft, anemic gradient.
What I did was:
- Add the tatoo light
--> Add supporting oranges for the blues
--> Break-up the monotone brown pants with grey (middle of blue+orange, within pants serves as blue) and tighter orange touches.
Add rainbow and done!

ps
Also notice I fertilized ur midtones.

[Saman]

hi
Thanks for the paint-over and feedback, guys. I made some changes to the orc and followed your painting, shotgun. Don't get me wrong, but the shapes on the eyes and the shoulder are painted shapes and not tattoos so that's what I'm going for. I did however follow your advice on fixing the lighting on it better so changes were made. Is it too bright now though?
I will be adding more details to the skin, glottis8. I agree, it does look a bit too shaded. Please tell me what you think;
http://www.goraaz.se/bonnerorc_101001.jpg

[shotgun]

Looks better! tatoo/body-paint (whatever) looks more natural now.

[haikai]

Great paint over by Shotgun. The highlights on the blue designs look good and add a lot of life. If anything it makes it feel more like paint than tattoos. One thing I especially like about the paint over is that the darks aren't as extreme as your model. I can see more detail in the paint over, but on your model I can't really see anything in those shadows. It could just be my monitor not being able to display darks well, but I think it's a good idea to reserve the darkest values to where you need them or else you'll clamp the available value range you can work with.

[Saman]

Thanks, guys! I made another attempt;
http://www.goraaz.se/bonnerorc_101002.jpg
Haikai: Are you talking about the darker areas on the shoulder-paint or the entire model? Where on the model if so because I can't really tell?

[Snowfly]

Just dropping in to say it's coming along very nicely!

[haikai]

Haikai: Are you talking about the darker areas on the shoulder-paint or the entire model? Where on the model if so because I can't really tell?

Sorry for the confusion. I meant the cast shadows, mostly on the lower areas of his body. Comparing to Shotgun's image, your clothing areas get really dark. The cast shadows on the skin area are also a bit dark. It's good to paint lighting in like this for diffuse only models, but be careful with going too far overboard with it. It looks great in this static pose, but in certain poses and animations those specific shadows may start to look kind of odd. But that's just my opinion; I know some people prefer that. :)

I know you've been getting a lot of different feedback and have been diligently incorporating them into your work. The model is looking great, and it's just about done even if you don't tweak anything else. I'm looking forward to your next model.

[shotgun]

Frankly, I've only painted on the top torso / arm, it may be the GIF compression that renders things differently (or ur monitor, as u said). In any case, I do agree that the body is heavily shaded to a point that makes potentially interesting areas moot: the entire rear side is very... passive. Kinda saying "don't look at me from the back, look from the front!" ... this is ass-descrimination, no less! (sure, an orc ass, and a male one at that, but still)

[Saman]

Thanks, shotgun and haikai. I brightened up the darkest areas on the clothes and equipment. Is this looking better?
http://www.goraaz.se/bonnerorc_101003.jpg

I'm gonna be honest with you guys. Going back and forth with changes may be a bit annoying but at the same time I'm learning a lot about what technique would be the best and so on. I learn better by practice than theory so it's all good. With all that said I'm getting pretty damn tired of this orc...
Thanks a lot for your help!

[shotgun]

Yes this is better. Move along, I say!
Make him a little pet familiar.

[haikai]

Well, guys, I feel like a fool. I adjusted my monitor and tried viewing it on another one as well and the shadow levels aren't nearly as dark as I thought... so, yea, just ignore what I say!

I think it's time to look into calibration. It's kind of scary to think that I do work under these conditions. :poly136:

[achillesian]

now you can get started on the boner orc

[butt_sahib]

God!
Just go back to page 1 and see how much you have progressed!!! NAICE

[Rafael Rojas]

I'm glad you like it, Rafael. But do you mean smoothing out the mesh or the texture?

the mesh :poly121::)

[BradMyers82]

Nice job dude! Way to stick with it, really great progress on this.
My only suggestion is to play around with some stronger highlights and lighting in general. It might now be what your going for but upping the contrast a bit might make him pop more.

[frwanque]

it is ciute, nice texturing.
Something cool i you want to add to your character you can put the bottom of you pants on a element ant move it a bit with an alpha or something so it doesn't look too fit on the Orc legs. You can also do it on the waist part.

But it depend of what you want