lip sculpting technique

[dansher]

hey, iv been trying to model lips in zbrush and iv been having a fair bit of trouble with them and i was wondering whats the best technique for making just simple lips,
iv had a look at some tutorials and stuff that i found through google but most of them make really detailed lips and all i want is to just get the basic shape down and deal with detailing later on (that and most of the tuts iv found confuse me lol)

seems that mine always end up really blobby and stupid looking

thanks

[cryrid]

Here's one quick way to go about it (quick as in it took longer to put it together in photoshop).
http://cryrid.com/3d/temp/zbrush/quick_mouth.jpg
The last stage is mostly filling out the lips with the standard brush to make sure it looks right in other angles.

[dansher]

thanks heaps, im having a crack at it now. think i screw up the proportions a bit but with a bit of practice i should get better.

thanks again

[dansher]

ok heres my first crack at it, dont laugh

ignore the crappyness of the rest of the head thats just there so i could try and get the mouth in the right place

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j116/dansher1211/zbrushscreen.jpg

[pior]

did you look at plaster casts references ?

[dansher]

did you look at plaster casts references ?

plaster cast?

iv just been using google

[butt_sahib]

cryrid
How helpful is the dam_standard in your opinion?

[dansher]

refined it a little bit, kind of looks like a sumo lol

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j116/dansher1211/zbrushscreen2.jpg


with the dam standard brush do you use it with an alpha? when i first downloaded it and everything it has like a soft dot alpha but i noticed it doesn't seem that good for really cutting into the mesh

[Calabi]

My suggestion would be to dont worry about the details of the lips to start with. Build the form surrounding and under the lips first. The lips are not flat, they jut out quite a bit from the rest of the face. Look in a mirror at the angle of the area under your nose, how steep it is and where it joins to the cheek. Use the move brush to pull out the form and adjust it till it looks roughly ok.

If you get the form right to start with you just need to do three cuts with the dam_standard brush(two inverted), and then its done, with perhaps minor adjustments thereafter, to plump out the lips and move things etc.

[cryrid]

+1 to the mirror suggestion.

Masking is always useful for the plumping step, allowing you to isolate the top from the bottom. You should add some more volume to the area above the top lip as well so that it doesn't sink in so much.
http://cryrid.com/images/temp/lips_profile.jpg


with the dam standard brush do you use it with an alpha? when i first downloaded it and everything it has like a soft dot alpha but i noticed it doesn't seem that good for really cutting into the mesh
You shouldn't need to download it anymore, it's just sitting in Lightbox. I just used it's default settings (where the alpha seems to give it a sharp falloff).

[dansher]

ok, worked on the top lip a bit more, filled in the part between it and the nose like you suggested also used the pinch brush around the outside edge of the lips and also in the center to make it look a bit better

i think the top lip is still a bit flat, but it definitely looks better imo

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j116/dansher1211/zbrushscreen3.jpg


http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j116/dansher1211/zbrushscreen4.jpg

[cryrid]

Now just work in some of the forms. Drawing tutorials normally show how the lips are broken into different shapes.
http://cryrid.com/images/temp/loomis_lips.jpg

http://sariel367.deviantart.com/art/Lips-Study-20951733?q=boost:popular+drawing+lips&qo=19

[Mark Dygert]

Ahh good ol Loomis.

[dansher]

cryrid whats the best way to work in the forms? just standard brush to get the shape and then smooth it?

[Snader]

I think you're jumping to details too fast, way too fast. Have a look at these images (copied from the speedmodel thread (http://www.polycount.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54957)) and look how much shaping gets done in the first subdivisions.

http://felipefrango.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/animated.gif?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v603/revender/07_01_09_speed.gif
http://johnyontehspot.com/johny/werid_guy_sculpt_stepssss.gif
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/Spook77/theGeneral.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/Spook77/FishFace.jpg

The idea is to sculpt to get a nice shape, then subdiv, sculpt more, subdiv, sculpt etc. Not to subdivide a few times first, and then start sculpting.

[dansher]

hey snader thanks for the input, i went back to a lower sub level and have been playing around with the move brush just to see what the effect it has. i see what you mean about going in and sub dividing a few times before i start modeling its a bad habit i need to get rid of, i think i'v just been getting carried away with playing with the brushes

thanks again

[dansher]

ok here he is how does it look?

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j116/dansher1211/zbrushscreen5.jpg

[cryrid]

Is perspective turned off?

[dansher]

yeah, should i turn it on?

[cryrid]

Always

[dansher]

ok why is that?

heres one with it turned on

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j116/dansher1211/zbrushscreen6.jpg

[Ravenslayer]

those lips look pretty good but just start by sculpting the planes of the face first before trying to go into detail.
if you are wondering how to sculpt something just lookup reference and study the form

[dansher]

thanks ravenslayer its good to actually finish something i started lol and by that i mean learning how to make lips not making a head

cheers

[penrod]

Around 50 secs in he shows how he sculpts lips. This guy also has a lot of nice reference casts on his website.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzBs3PM2W_4

[dansher]

holy crap that is cool thanks penrod

[dansher]

ok so i know this isnt what this topics about but i dont really want to spam the forum with another thread so please bear with me.

ok so here goes

iv been using swizzles ref pics

iv been practicing modeling a head and doing it like snader said. so how am i doing?:)

far right pic isabout 6k activepoints, far left is 386

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j116/dansher1211/screenshotprogression.jpg

[Snader]

Rather conservatively.

Don't be afraid to really push in the eyesockets or bring out the nose or something like that. Even if you feel like you go to far, you're probably still not pushing far enough yet. Currently it's still very visibly made from a sphere (or a subdiv-cube).

Also, try to mix up shapes and brushes a bit. Flat, soft, smooth, angular surfaces. Add clay, substract, flatten, pinch, move and whatnot.

Also, a really quick paintover:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/448525/keep/Polycount/zbrush_techlips_paintover.jpg




(And on the off chance that you might possibly, eventually, hypothetically, mayhaps, push it too far, it can always become a stylized head.)

[Calabi]

Here's a link to the best head modelling method in Zbrush I've seen.

Its the medusa head ones. They use the flatten type brush's to bring out the forms.

http://www.3dworldmag.com/page/3dworld?entry=tutorial_files_for_3d_world9

[dansher]

thanks calabi im checking them out now

@snader when you say to use the other brushes and stuff thats still at a lowish subdivide lvl yeah?

[Snader]

Yeah, but the pinch won't do much at low subdivs, so just stick to round versus flat shapes for a bit.