North Korea declares "sacred war" on U.S.

[Taylor Hood]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20100724/tts-uk-korea-north-ca02f96.html

What's up with this, guys?

It barley relates to me but it sounds pretty darn serious.

Feel free to have a discussion.

Er, if it violates any Forum rules I take full responsibility and you can take it down xD

[Wahlgren]

You know. I have no idea about any of this so i should just shut up...

But haven't the world been staring intently at north korea for a bunch of years now? I think america especially wants to put them down. At least india and th eother asian countries does

I dunno. I just know that kim jong scares me. He reminds me of a small terrier wanting to fight everything and bark at everyone so we think he's big and menacing... except this terrier has nukes.

[Taylor Hood]

Two options
Do nothing
or We all band together and PWN North Korea.
I bet they have spies on Polycount...I shouldn't have said that.
I'm looking at Belias. =]

Seriously tho, I'm pretty much clueless about all this aswell. I just sounded very important :/ Polycount is the wrong place to put it.

[trancerobot]

Well, that depends. Is this a topic of reasonable discussion? I think it is. Most forums ban political talk - but I never understood why. Besides, this isn't a conversation about red vs blue. This is a geo-political topic that could affect us all.

I am of the opinion that North Korea will eventually do something. It could be in a few days, or next year. If you do a Google search on nuclear brinksmanship, most of the results are from April of last year - not long after setting off their second nuke. Since then they have sunk a ship full of South Korean sailors and officially ended the cease-fire and now they're threatening nuclear war again.

I read an interesting article the other day about how desperatly Castro wanted to bomb New York with Russian missiles back in 1962. Thankfully, the Russians were reasonable even at the hight of the cold war, and turned their ships around.

Super powers like us tend to want to remain super powers. We have a lot to lose. The North Koreans, like the radical communist Cubans, have nothing to lose. They are ideologues, and will wage nuclear war just to kill some of us even it it means their total annihilation.

[xvampire]

lol don't feed the troll ( you know what i mean :) )

[Taylor Hood]

Here comes a Cliché but...WHY?

Seriously. I've never taken History, Modern Studies or anything like that so I don't know but come on. Killing off so many innocent people over ...oil?

xvampire- I'm a bit tired so I don't know what you mean. Are you implying that I'm a troll? XD

If not, then that's fine =]

[e-freak]

well, the official reading is that the north koreans just published that they'd be ready for "a sacred war" in case the US and SK attack them. The latter two are currently doing manouvers in the yellow and the japanese sea. It's the only legitimate way they can provoke the NKs at the moment.

While I must state that I'm against any war at all, it might just be for better if this solves now and "forever" in a big bang. NKs population seems to be starving (though through lack of education and possibilities don't revolt) so it might just be better for them in the longterm if this comes to an "ending with shock, rather than a shock with no ending".

[Ninjas]

The headline to that story is misleading to the point of being plain false.

[trancerobot]

Two options
Do nothing
or We all band together and PWN North Korea.
I bet they have spies on Polycount...I shouldn't have said that.
I'm looking at Belias. =]

Seriously tho, I'm pretty much clueless about all this aswell. I just sounded very important :/ Polycount is the wrong place to put it.

You shouldn't care about spies.

I read that if we do nothing, the North Korean strategy is to use nuclear weapons as a threat to force reunification with South Korea. We all know they aren't afraid of waving that figurative nuclear gun around, so I believe it. I also believe that would start another major war in which the U.S. is involved, also the South Koreans are free people like us - they won't bow down to Kim so easily. They aren't brainwashed slaves like their kin to the north. I think not only will we fight the North Koreans to protect the South - but that even an uninterrupted Reunification would introduce instability in the North Korean government - so they are playing a losing strategy.

We know from history that rampant ideology (of any sort) is the downfall of any government. In North Korea's case, it supercharges the military strength of the country while at the same time causing them to behave in ways that arn't benificial to their own continued existance.

North Koreans are brinks-men of the highest sort, and the rest of the world is about to learn what happens when a country constantly threatens nuclear war. Other nations at first are scared, so they try to appease. Then they realize just how they've been played and they say - "No more words. Either come to the table on our terms or not. If you want war, we're ready" This is what SK and the US are saying with these off-shore military exercises.

The time for talk is over for NK. They must either put up, or shut up. I believe they will go ahead and do it this time. Better they try to launch a war against us now, than when they are fully ready.


well, the official reading is that the north koreans just published that they'd be ready for "a sacred war" in case the US and SK attack them. The latter two are currently doing manouvers in the yellow and the japanese sea. It's the only legitimate way they can provoke the NKs at the moment.

While I must state that I'm against any war at all, it might just be for better if this solves now and "forever" in a big bang. NKs population seems to be starving (though through lack of education and possibilities don't revolt) so it might just be better for them in the longterm if this comes to an "ending with shock, rather than a shock with no ending".

I agree completely. We might as well end it now, legitimately, than wait for them to start the war on their terms.

[Taylor Hood]

What about the UK -.- We'll probably step in somewhere.

I'd probably agree with you guys... in a couple of years time.
No way in hell I'm dieing for power hungery morons.

The spy thing was a joke by the way =]

[Target_Renegade]

I hope its not because of the Portugal game.

[trancerobot]

What about the UK -.- We'll probably step in somewhere.

I'd probably agree with you guys...if I was the same age as you.
No way in hell I'm dieing for greedy assholes :/

The spy thing was a joke by the way =]

You're not going to die Taylor. NK has limited nuclear capabilities. Their missiles aren't very reliable either. In fact, the only thing I'd be worried about is a draft - and depending on your personality, you can decide not to go if you're willing to sit in a prison cell.

I have a disability that will prevent me from being a soldier. (GSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycogen_storage_disease)) But if a real war does break out, I would try to contribute in some way. This is the last true cold war enemy - the last threat to the rest of the world. Everyone else either mellowed out or collapsed. NK's time is coming.

I hope its not because of the Portugal game.

Ha!

Here are some good reads - enjoy
http://atimes.com/atimes/Korea/KF11Dg02.html
http://bigpeace.com/hfontova/2010/07/21/fidel-castro-predicts-nuclear-war/

Final edit - for humor

North Korea is to China
what
Israel is to the U.S.

Food for thought. We all need our rabid attack dogs...

[Taylor Hood]

You sure do empower a reader in your writing Trancerbot.=]

To be honest, this is one of the reasons I wish we all lived in medieval times. Maybe it's the fantasy nerd in me but I'd fight for honor and courage and my nation if a war in those times were to happen.

[Justin Meisse]

Here comes a Cliché but...WHY?

Seriously. I've never taken History, Modern Studies or anything like that so I don't know but come on. Killing off so many innocent people over ...oil?

xvampire- I'm a bit tired so I don't know what you mean. Are you implying that I'm a troll? XD

If not, then that's fine =]

It isn't about Oil, check out the wiki entry on the Korean War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War)

There's been rumors about Kim Jong Il's health I wonder if all the sabre rattling is to prove he's still the big man.

[Taylor Hood]

Yeah. I should brush up on what all of this means before running my mouth.
Thanks for the link, Justin.

[Mark Dygert]

Toss in a paranoid leader with short mans disease, a messiah complex, and who is near deaths door and you get one twitchy buggy country on lock down. I wouldn't be too worried, they blow hot wind all the time and I'm pretty sure this is just more posturing.


Technically the two sides are still at war, just no one has been shooting until recently and even that is disputed.

This recent round of BS started when South Korea's ship did one of three things. Ran aground, hit a really old mine or was sunk by a North Korean torpedo. Since neither of the first two paint them in a good light and the third is a stick in the eye to the north they went with it. As a response they planned "Naval games with the US" as a show of force.

The north isn't fond of being accused of something they claim they didn't do and they don't like people pointing out how tiny their military slong is, so they fly off the handle. Actually their army is pretty serious business but with the shape of their nation it would be impossible to sustain it during a protracted war... like the kind the US is fond of putting on every few decades.

It's kind of funny, Americas inability to win a war might actually be a bonus if they ever do crack open the Korean war again.

[teaandcigarettes]

What interests me the most is what would happen to North Korean citizens IF a war breaks out and its old regime is destroyed (it doesn't seem like they have a chance of winning a long term conflict). Both China and South Korea would face a massive influx of immigrants; immigrants who were taught to believe in values radically different from their neighbours'.

Would these people be able to find themselves in a new reality? How would they interact with South Koreans they were told to despise? Or would they leave the peninsula and move further west?


Also, what would happen to the country itself? Obviously, it’s in west’s best interest to create a unified Korea, but would China allow having its "shield" taken back? Perhaps partitioning the country would please Chinese government enough to make them stop their oil exports (that alone would finish North Korea in a matter of months, if not weeks); but would that be even ethic, when we know that NK refugees are often turned into slaves, or forced into prostitution?


Of course, it's just me wildly speculating; there's a high probability that nothing will happen.



@Justin:

You could say that he's feeling il (http://instantrimshot.com/classic/?sound=rimshot)

[Taylor Hood]

You could say that he's feeling il (http://instantrimshot.com/classic/?sound=rimshot)That was made of pure win.
=]

[EricV]

I wouldnt pay too much attention to the article.

[Entity]

Visited South Korea once, beautiful place with horrible yet addictive pop music. Met someone who ran away from North Korea..the stories he told me weren't good to hear.

[Taylor Hood]

North Korea seem to be like the Trolls of the real world.
Maybe thats not the best example but they sure aren't doing anything good for themselves.
=/

[ChrisG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ6E3cShcVU couple of good docus to watch. I've always had this strange fascination with NK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C76HqPaA6kw&feature=related
- Friends Of Kim,

Half the population are living off international aid while the other 48% eat boiled mud and sticks, which is pretty disturbing.

[Taylor Hood]

Let's all go to NK and have a polycount meetup. I'm sure that'll be greeaaat fun.

[Taylor Hood]

I'm watching the 53 minute video. So interestingly disturbing :/
How can they live in such restriciton.

[[HP]]

War is so overrated. Don't worry, be happy. ffs

I can't believe some comments that I read in here, I mean, really? Should we just attack them because of their own choices?
Afaik, NK's are just afraid of being attacked, like Iraq did. So, they're preparing for war, and a possible invasion by the so called "imperialists".

The hell with the NK's. they want to survive by their own, go ahead, starve to death, see if I care. Why the fuck should we attack them?
Do you attack random tramps in the street? even if they own a gun?

[teaandcigarettes]

;1186901']
The hell with the NK's. they want to survive by their own, go ahead, starve to death, see if I care. Why the fuck should we attack them?
Do you attack random tramps in the street? even if they own a gun?

I don't think that's the case; it's rather their crazy leaders who want them to survive on their own. Those who are dying of starvation would sell the glorified ideology for a bowl of soup.


It might be me, but I feel that any kind of totalitarian system should be smashed as soon as it is possible. Having grown up in Eastern Europe, my youth was filled with stories first of Nazi occupation of Poland, then of Stalinist terror and other crimes of soviet regime. I might have not experienced any of it myself, but hearing the stories from people who were directly involved does make an impact on the way you perceive reality. I don't think that tyranny should be simply ignored. It's doesn't seem right to ignore it.


But I agree with the point that a direct attack is not the best solution. As I mentioned before, simply stopping Chinese oil supplies would be enough to put Korea on its knees; NK imports more than 80% of its oil from its sole ally. But then we get to the issue of convincing Chinese government to stop supporting NK. Even after the recent diplomatic conflicts between these two countries, NK's existence still lies in China's interest. Things however, will certainly get more spicy when Japan or South Korea feel threatened enough to create their own atomic bombs.

[TomDunne]

This is exactly how scared you should be of North Korea:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Korean_peninsula_at_night.jpg

That's the Korean peninsula at night. See the yellow dots all along the top? Those are lights from town and cities in China. Now see even more yellow dots down at the bottom? Those are the cities and towns of South Korea.

And that nearly unlit band running through the middle? That's North Korea, a country so poor they can't afford to keep the lights on. The DPRK is almost entirely dependent upon foreign aid, including aid from the US and South Korea, just to keep the population from starving to death.

North Korea has been rattling their saber ever since the war ended, but it's been nearly 60 years since their military has actually taken the field. That's because they know military conflict is an unwinnable scenario. War with the south means war with the US, and that means no aid from the west. All the guns and bombs and nukes don't mean anything if your people can't eat.

[Bibendum]

It barley relates to me but it sounds pretty darn serious.It certainly does seem serious if only read the headline and not the article. Had this been the headline I doubt you'd be shitting your pants: North Korea 'We are ready for both talks and wars.'

North Korea can best be likened to a child that keeps misbehaving in order to get attention. Kim Jong-Il operates under the assumption that if he puffs out his chest and plays tough or portrays himself as a loose cannon, others will take him seriously and that will give him political leverage. But it's all bullshit, he has a vested interest in self-preservation.

Americans perception of threats has been seriously warped by terrorism, people treat governments like Iran and North Korea as though they are small groups of religious fanatics with no issues attacking countries that will result in their total annihilation. But the actual reality of it is that these are politicians with agendas.

[Taylor Hood]

Hey guys I'm this tiny, cruel, demanding, brainwashing, angry dictator that controls it's people like no other.

I watched all 53 minutes of that first youtube video and you can really see just how much they have gotten their way just because of some propaganda BS.

I kinda laughed at the INTENSE mourning of the Father of Kim Jong Il.

Gotta love Kim and NK.

[jrs100000]

North Korea says similar things twice every single year during the big UN exercises, and once again they wont do crap about it. They can not win a war with south Korea and they know it.


As far as the sinking: they know full well that they sunk the south Korean ship. The north Korean Northern Limit Line (Naval version of the DMZ) is not the same as the one that south Korea and the US recognize. Because of this there are fairly regular firefights and the occasional sinking in that area.

The only surprising part is that north Korea is denying responsibility since this is one of the few times it wasnt their ship sunk.

[xvampire]

You sure do empower a reader in your writing Trancerbot.=]

To be honest, this is one of the reasons I wish we all lived in medieval times. Maybe it's the fantasy nerd in me but I'd fight for honor and courage and my nation if a war in those times were to happen.

nationality is getting old, just like medieval kind of thinking.

i ve been waiting for the day when world doesn't need country to country borders. maybe it wont happen in my lifetime but whatever ...

[Junkie_XL]

I really don't care about North or South Korea. North Korea isn't crazy enough to do jack because they know we'd wipe them off the map in retaliation.

US troops shouldn't be there...but not for reasons the douchebags in the "Friends of Kim" documentary want. I am simply sick of using our own blood and treasure to provide nanny-protection for others. Unless a country is the 51st state of the US...I don't want to be there. We can't afford it. The money should stay within the US instead of being the world's policeman.

There are three realities here. 1. It is impossible to take care of everybody. 2. South Korea has a GDP 20x the size of North Korea. They can afford to protect themselves just fine. 3. The US is going broke and we simply can't afford this crap anymore.

Let S. Korea start their own huge national debt for once. South Korea currently relies on the US military like a Chicago mother relies on the welfare system. Pick yourself up and take care of yourself.

This thread gives me a reason to post this pic...

http://i39.tinypic.com/2mpg03m.jpg

[Taylor Hood]

I kinda agree with you. It doesn't seem like NK is deserving at all of the supplies that the US give them. I don't know much about the US but isn't it the Military's job to do something and not just stand there? Infact if they stood there people might just say "Why aren't you doing anything??"

I agree that they are wasting a crap load of money on NK douchebags tho :/

[jrs100000]

Let S. Korea start their own huge national debt for once. South Korea currently relies on the US military like a Chicago mother relies on the welfare system. Pick yourself up and take care of yourself.

Just for the record, south Korea does pay the US the costs of deploying troops in their country and they do suffer under high taxes, high national debt, and universal conscription in order to fund the military.

In addition, south Korea one of the worlds largest economies. The destruction of this economy (even in a war that south Korea eventually won) would do great damage to the US and the rest of the world.

[TheMadArtist]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2mpg03m.jpg

I can't even begin to tell you how offensive that picture is Junkie. Don't be one of these idiots that generalizes and throws the entire United States military into one common misconception. Grow the fuck up.

[Junkie_XL]

Come on the dude eating the hot dog is the best part...lol

I didn't make the pic btw...found on 4chan or something. To be honest we really only need the marines in case Canada gets fussy. The 1 trillion we spend per year on the military is such a money sink.

I could turn this into a huge thread informing people on how the US gets ourselves into trouble thanks to all the CIA "cloak and dagger" operations that have been going on since the mid 50's...but polycount is not our blog and this will get locked.

I'd love to see info that South Korea entirely pays back the US though...

[TheMadArtist]

Come on the dude eating the hot dog is the best part...lol

I didn't make the pic btw...found on 4chan or something. To be honest we really only need the marines in case Canada gets fussy. The 1 trillion we spend per year on the military is such a money sink.

I could turn this into a huge thread informing people on how the US gets ourselves into trouble thanks to all the CIA "cloak and dagger" operations that have been going on since the mid 50's...but polycount is not our blog and this will get locked.

I'd love to see info that South Korea entirely pays back the US though...

Yeah the dude eating the hot dog is pretty funny...sorry I just come from a military family (granted, ones that served when the military meant more than it does now) so I tend to get a tad defensive.

[jrs100000]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/korea-updates-2.htm

In late March 2002 it was reported that General Thomas A. Schwartz, commander of US Forces in Korea, had announed that the US planned to shut about half of its military bases in South Korea over the coming decade, without reducing the number of troops from the existing 37,000 deployed at the time. About a third of American troops would move, consolidating all American forces at 23 facilities. The $2.5 billion move was intended to return land to South Koreans and to increase the efficiency of American troops. One significant part of the plan was the improvement in the living conditions for US troops. Poor housing conditions had been a notorious part of service in Korea. South Korea agreed to pay $1.12 billion of the $2.5 billion price of the project. When the 10-year project was complete, 25 percent of US troops in South Korea would be able to bring their families with them, versus the existing level of 10 percent. This would still be less than the 75 percent level of troops with families in Japan, Germany and other US bases overseas.

In April 2002 South Korea agreed to contribute about $463 million to US Forces Korea (USFK) for upkeep for the year. During the Security Consultative Meeting (SCM) in Washington in mid-November 2001, Korea agreed to increase its budget for USFK by 10.4 percent for the year 2002, from $444 million to $490 million. Due to an increase in the proportion of Korea's payment denominated in won (the South Korean national currency), the actual contribution by Korea was reduced to $463 million. The Korean payments for South Korean nationals hired by USFK accounted for almost half of Korea's share.

[EricV]

the picture is kind of ironic because more and more now, the military/armed forces is the only job out there for so many americans. so what you have are thousands of young men I would presume as a very conservative estimate being coerced into joining in which they normally never would. I dont know who said it, but the saying that "the wars of the rich are fought with the blood of the poor" ring true still to this day and will continue to as long as people remain ignorant to what war is really about

[bbob]

No matter how you turn it around, any decision is a shitty decision.

If you cut NK off, the people are the ones who are going to pay.

If you attack, because the people have been brainwashed so much, it will be a long gruesome war unless you could live with nuking the whole thing. In that case, it's also the people who are going to pay.

If you try to wait it out, more innocent people will starve to death or go into camps for thinking freely, where they are subjected to god-knows-what.

[Skamberin]

@bbob: Might as well nuke then, quickest and easiest way, and less pain. Just like euthanasia!

I am of course not being serious. This seriously is kind of terrible, the way NK is right now means that no one wins nomatter what is done :/

[jrs100000]

Yea, there really is no good way out.

Nuking them is really out of the question. Beyond the usual problems, they also happen to be right on the border of China and the fallout could cause vast damage to Japan, south Korea, India and the rest of Asia. Plus, the bulk of their military is so close to the border and dug in so deep that there isnt much way to drop H-bombs on them without tearing up Seoul.

Conventional war is also out of the question. Even in the case of a surprise attack followed by swift victory, south Korea is devastated by artillery, Tokyo has missiles lobbed their way (maybe tipped with nukes). Oh yea, and once again China would be very unhappy about this war right on their border.

Best case, Kim dies and his generals, realizing they can not compete militarily or economically, opt for peaceful reunification under the south Korean government. This is not a particularly attractive option.

Imagine for a moment that whatever country you live in has a nearly identical shadow country next to it: The only difference is that its populated by people from 100 years in the past. They have never used a computer, driven a car, had electric lights or running water in their houses, shopped at a grocery store, talked on a telephone, watched TV etc. They have an archaic accent, outdated social values, and a deeply ingrained hatred of your country's modern government. They are also destitute and badly traumatized by a lifetime of hardship and abuse. One more thing, they are almost all military veterans and have huge stockpiles of weapons and ammunition stashed all over the place.

[bbob]

@bbob: Might as well nuke then, quickest and easiest way, and less pain.

The worst part is, that if it comes to war, this might very quickly become the decision made. Just like it did with japan in 1945, because the fight over every single inch were so bitterly hellish and brutal.

[EricV]

the only thing that starting another war is going to accomplish is to create more death, suffering, and misery. If you think all this bs and propaganda being peddled about them is any way different than with vietnam, iraq, afghanistan, and soon to be iran(i cant wait for the excuse forgoing to war with them) then you're living in a dream world. People don't be fooled, this is all about control of resources, including people.

[bbob]

Propaganda?

You do realize that they have been this way since the 50'ies, right? Also, any country that has relations with the far east recognizes them as complete fecking psychos.

This truely is stranger than fiction.

[jrs100000]

People don't be fooled, this is all about control of resources, including people.

But this is the problem and the point I was trying to make in my last post. The north Korean people are not at all ready to integrate into the modern world in any capacity. The defectors that have attempted to join south Korean society have almost universally had great difficulties overcoming the cultural and technological differences between the two countries, and defectors tend to be better educated that average and motivated enough to risk their lives in order to join the modern world.

The average north Koreans skill sets include plowing rice paddies by hand, food scavenging, and 9 years of mandatory military training. That doesnt exactly make for a useful work force.

[Joseph Silverman]

i think i make this post in every political thread but:

I'm very anti war but junkie you're horribly misinformed/undereducated about this shit quit posting silly nonsense polycount is usually a smart community

[EricV]

Propaganda?

You do realize that they have been this way since the 50'ies, right? Also, any country that has relations with the far east recognizes them as complete fecking psychos.

This truely is stranger than fiction.

with as many problems going on right now, why are Americans always more concerned with the problems of others than of their own? take care of your troops, take care of the homeless vets, take care of your own children, make sure there are jobs in your country, secure your borders from the flood of illegals, focus on electing and supporting officials that are not going to sell you out and fight for the peoples rights etc. All those things should be more of a priority over forcing democracy in whatever little corner in the world you're told to go to I would think.

[Joseph Silverman]

i agree, but that's ad hominem and doesnt invalidate how fucking psychotic and dangerous NK's policymaking is

[EricV]

ad hominem? I dont recall resorting to name calling or attacking in any way.

I realize the thread is about NK specifically but what I'm trying to get at here is the bigger picture. It came out Vietnam was a sham and the gulf of tonkin incident was a lie designed to get America into that war. The excuse for Afghanistan was because of 9/11 but then that quickly changed to the taliban is evil and theyre abusing women and such. Then you had Iraq, and the excuse for that was WMD's which again turned out to be bologny. I mean give me a break, is no one else catching on?

[ZacD]

secure your borders from the flood of illegals

I don't really get how that is a big issue, its only big because people use it as a hot topic republican vs democrat issue. Racial profiling and putting up a wall isn't going to solve or fix anything, if people want to escape their shitty country and have a better life here, then allow them to do it as long as they can support their families. There was a local family (here in Kansas, the middle of the USA) the parents got deported and the kid were born here so they are legal, the parents lived here for 15+ years, payed taxes, raised a family, had a nice house, weren't using any government support. The parents had to fight to get citizenship and the kids stayed here and got some support from friends and family.

A bigger issue is the problems in Mexico like drugs, gangs, and violence that are leaking over into the USA. One of the ideas is to legalize cannabis and the Mexican gangs will lose a hung chunk of their funding, but that's not going to happen anytime soon.

[bbob]

Eric, I must admit that I am not seeing a connection between those and NK..

If NK is a lie, then it is damn elaborate, and has been going on for over 60 years.

[kwakkie]

http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/vice_guide_to_north_korea_episode_1_of_3/

For those who like to learn more about Nkorea, also see the other 2 parts... it's really funny and the presenter is a pretty cool dude :D

[ultramedia]

There are three types of people in the world: wolves, sheepdogs & sheep

The wolves job is to eat sheep
The sheepdogs job is to stop the wolves eating the sheep
The sheeps job is to whine endlessly about how badly the sheepdogs treat the wolves

[bbob]

Yet, most of the problems arise from trying to segment the whole world into easy to understand categories.

[HonkyPunch]

There are three types of people in the world: wolves, sheepdogs & sheep

The wolves job is to eat sheep
The sheepdogs job is to stop the wolves eating the sheep
The sheeps job is to whine endlessly about how badly the sheepdogs treat the wolves

the fourth kind of person is the kind of person that insists that people can be lumped into groups as easily as all that.

[hawken]

Living so close to this mess, I hope someone cleans it up soon, if only for the peoples sake.

That and I'm not too happy about the prospect of missiles pointed at Tokyo.

[jrs100000]

Living so close to this mess, I hope someone cleans it up soon, if only for the peoples sake.

That and I'm not too happy about the prospect of missiles pointed at Tokyo.

I wouldnt worry too much. Fitting a nuke onto a missile is pretty tricky. It took the Soviets and the US a long time to get that system working and they had vast resources compared to north Korea.

Like all nuclear weapons, it is more of a political weapon. If Kim technically has the power to destroy south Korea, strike a mortal blow to Japan, and drag China into a war with the US...that might be enough to make global stock markets hick-up just by rattling his saber. A weapon like that is much more useful than a nuke.

Edit: Those 4 countries alone are over 40% of the entire worlds GDP. Even a small chance that he could start something should be enough to cause real problems.

[Smirnoffka]

Meh, I doubt anything will come of it. This kind of shit has been going on for years. I'm ready if it does eventuate though.

[Kwramm]

I think the Chinese would be quite pissed if little Kim disturbs their churning economy by starting a war on their doorstep. They're happy he keeps the Americans busy though but if he starts acting up, Beijing will not be happy, and then Kim will be caught between a hard place with stars'n'stripes and red painted rock with some yellow stars on it.

[TomDunne]

I mean give me a break, is no one else catching on?

Nope, you're the only one that has it figured out. Congratulations on being so brilliant. This thread can end now, kthxbai.

[Junkie_XL]

i think i make this post in every political thread but:

I'm very anti war but junkie you're horribly misinformed/undereducated about this shit quit posting silly nonsense polycount is usually a smart community

You want to put a skirt on for me now or later? You've had a wet little pussy for hating on me for quite a while now without proving anything I say wrong. If anyone here is looking silly it is you with your personal attacks and lack of substantial info to debate with.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Back on topic. I knew S. Korea didn't pay for their security entirely. So my original point still stands. But I appreciate the input jrs100000. It's not my job to care how highly taxed the people are. If the US troops completely pulled out they would be taxed even higher. My concern is only for how highly taxed the American people already are.

[bbob]

You want to put a skirt on for me now or later? You've had a wet little pussy for hating on me for quite a while now without proving anything I say wrong. If anyone here is looking silly it is you with your personal attacks and lack of substantial info to debate with.

I think it was the way that you, or the originator of that image, made it look like every single U.S. serviceman is stealing from every american. Which is, with all due respect, a very juvenile way to put it.

You cannot blame people for taking an available job, but you can blame the people who make the job available with your money.

[Richard Kain]

A large part of this issue is simple geography. North Korea is ruled by a dictatorship with delusions of grandeur. It aspires to be a conqueror, and expand its influence and power. But its location is holding it back. On one side, there is China. And no matter how large an army North Korea manages to assemble, China's standing military will always be able to kick their ass. It's just a matter of logistics. China is much, much bigger, and will always have more people available. So that's not an option. The only other direction they have to go in is down into South Korea. But South Korea is an ally of the US, and the US has a policy of backing up its allies with surprising force.

Although North Korea has a decently powerful army, its navy and air force aren't nearly to level where they could be called a super power. So their imperial ambitions are limited to ground combat. And that means either China or South Korea, South Korea being the "softer" of the two targets. The only possible outcomes are a military conflict with South Korea, or for North Korea to abandon its dreams of expansion.

[MALicivs]

guys, this is just a lot of dick waving, in a dick waving contest that has been here for a long time. None of the sides has anything to win with a war, the US and S. Korea are just trying to persuade DPRK to stop with their nuclear projects.

[jrs100000]

Back on topic. I knew S. Korea didn't pay for their security entirely. So my original point still stands. But I appreciate the input jrs100000. It's not my job to care how highly taxed the people are. If the US troops completely pulled out they would be taxed even higher. My concern is only for how highly taxed the American people already are.

What are you expecting them to pay for? The salaries of all the soldiers? Vehicles and equipment? I cant imagine they would be very happy about that since the US can and does pull resources out of Korea to support other efforts whenever its convenient.

In any case, I certainly wouldnt say that they qualify as welfare queens.

[Slum]

This article and thread are, as our friends across the pond would say, "a load of bollocks"

Nothing about that statement suggests North Korea are "declaring war". They simply said they are prepared for war.

[ghost-d]

"North Korea drove tensions to new heights after a team of investigators, led by South Korea's military, accused it of firing a torpedo in March to sink the corvette Cheonan, killing 46 men."

NORTH KOREA drove tensions when SOUTH KOREA accused them. Who wrote that?? A drove tension when B accused him... what?? seriously, talk about objectivism...

I´ve seen pictures of the torpedo. that thing was all rusty. It was under the water maybe since the wwII. and the "north korean" sign on it? seriously, that was written in ink? Looked like "hey, let´s write something on it. make it look North Korean, ok? Not Chinese!! Chinese are too big and they´ve got weapons. Today it´s North Korea."
I mean, if I wanted a war, I´d attack them directly. If I didn´t, the torpedo would be spotless. And first news were the there were no holes in the ship or anything and that the torpedo was "contactless". Contactless. "Hey you, ship! you´re going doooown! Be a good ship and go down... don´t make me make a hole in you! Let´s do it the easy way..."

;1186901']War is so overrated. Don't worry, be happy. ffs

I can't believe some comments that I read in here, I mean, really? Should we just attack them because of their own choices?
Afaik, NK's are just afraid of being attacked, like Iraq did. So, they're preparing for war, and a possible invasion by the so called "imperialists".

The hell with the NK's. they want to survive by their own, go ahead, starve to death, see if I care. Why the fuck should we attack them?
Do you attack random tramps in the street? even if they own a gun?

Thank god for this comment.

It really makes me wonder how can anybody say that US should attack NK. What gives anybody the right to attack other country? Seriously. Can I kill my neighbor just because he´s learning self-defense techniques? Why not - international law shuts the fuck up anytime US bombs hundreds of civilian in a meaningless war (oil is not a reason for me. you don´t have an oil? buy it. I can´t come to groceries and kill them to get things I want. and here I´m talking about food, not oil.). Maybe if I said that the tank in my car was empty and he had a full tank, that would shut the mouth to the media. And why don´t you mind that Israel has the bomb? You´re even helping them with that... Maybe there´s a list of people/nations/races/religions that can feel equal to the leaders of the world, you know.. I´d like to see it. Because obviously some countries can do anything everywhere (kill activists, use babies as a shield, put sanctions, kidnap people from their homes and torture them) and the others can´t even defend themselves from these people without being called terrorists.

My opinion would be - either everyone should be allowed to have nuclear weapons, or nobody. Those who don´t have them yet, can work on them. Why not? If the fuckers in White house had a REAL reason to be worried of any other country, believe me - there would be peace in the world. Or do you really thing that Bush would go to Iraq if they REALLY had some weapons? No way. And don´t tell me that USA is the good country that wouldn´t use it to fuck everyone´s ass in case there would be noone else with nuclear weapons, ok? Movies are one thing and reality is other.

And - I wouldn´t be surprised if any of the South Korean or American ships would sink there. Afterall, Hitler also attacked his own radio-station to blame Poland and attack them. my quess would be American - torn American flag looks a lot better in headlines to motivate people to support another bloodshed. Why would they care, right? the war is always outside USA, so why should they care about things like "reason" or "civilians"?

I think I made my point here. I know, there´s probably going to be many haters that will call me an idiot or even a terrorist. Well, being a terrorist for these people makes me only proud. Afterall, our partizans were also called "banditen" by the nazis during WWII, and now they´re proud that they were called banditen back then.

[Joseph Silverman]

ad hominem? I dont recall resorting to name calling or attacking in any way.

I realize the thread is about NK specifically but what I'm trying to get at here is the bigger picture. It came out Vietnam was a sham and the gulf of tonkin incident was a lie designed to get America into that war. The excuse for Afghanistan was because of 9/11 but then that quickly changed to the taliban is evil and theyre abusing women and such. Then you had Iraq, and the excuse for that was WMD's which again turned out to be bologny. I mean give me a break, is no one else catching on?


The iraq thing was a mistake imo.

If you don't think the forces attacking is in afghanistan represent a threat to the west, though, you're horribly under-educated on the subject. The conflict in afghanistan isnt against local, angry rebels or something, we're fighting militarized, funded, independent 'terrorist' organizations who've demonstrated a willingness to attack countries outside of their borders. Hell, they dont even have borders.

Additionally -- this isnt really a fair argument since it relies on so much speculation, but i just want to broach the idea: honestly, war sucks, and imperialistic war away from our borders sucks even more, but can you honestly say with confidence that our anti-red policy with korea and vietnam and our current 'anti terrorist' policy aren't for the good of the nation?

I mean there were REALLY big stumbles and i would love it if the wars had never happened and everything had turned out well, but when it came down to it america's overall strategy in the cold war was a success. The USSR collapsed without ever inflicting major harm on the west.

Also:

'America's policy regarding North Korea is bad because America's behavior (past and present) is bad' represents an ad hominem. So does 'America's policy regarding North Korea is invalid because America's policymakers have bad judgement'

Even if america had made a billion shitty military decisions, it wouldnt have anything to do with whether the current NK policy is good or bad.

[Justin Meisse]

huh? who wants to attack NK? It would be a disaster, it's a can of Worms that the US and China don't want opened.

[Richard Kain]

What gives anybody the right to attack other country? Seriously.

Well, there are the humanitarian considerations. By all accounts, the current North Korean regime's mismanagement of its national resources is driving its citizens into starvation. They are effectively killing off their own population. It could be argued that it is their right as a sovereign nation to do just that. But its also hard not to feel a little bad for the millions of North Korean civilians being slowly starved to death. If a war did break out, it is highly unlikely that the civilians of North Korea would suffer any more than they already are. Even a swift death as collateral damage is probably less painful and agonizing than the slow misery of starvation.

Of course, the current political climate would make a US, or even a South Korean instigated conflict highly unlikely. No, if there is going to be any war, it will be one that North Korea starts. North Korea is getting desperate because they are beginning to realize that they won't be able to maintain their country as it stands much longer.

[Joseph Silverman]

I wouldnt worry too much. Fitting a nuke onto a missile is pretty tricky. It took the Soviets and the US a long time to get that system working and they had vast resources compared to north Korea.

Conventional missiles burn and kill thousands of people just fine too.


There was a local family (here in Kansas, the middle of the USA) the parents got deported and the kid were born here so they are legal, the parents lived here for 15+ years, payed taxes, raised a family, had a nice house, weren't using any government support. The parents had to fight to get citizenship and the kids stayed here and got some support from friends and family.

And there are tons of people who rob to support their families because they cant feed their kids any other way, but it doesn't mean that making burglary illegal is the problem. We need immigration reform, badly, but the last thing we need is to make it okay for people to come into our country without immigrating. It represents a massive security and more importantly economical risk.



I´ve seen pictures of the torpedo. that thing was all rusty.


Do you understand how Oxidization ('rust' in this case) works?

Torpedos explode, dumbass.

As for 'contactless', sinking a ship before it knows you're there is kindof the entire ideal behind naval warfare

I'm not saying that north korea sank that ship, but if your understanding of the facts is so little that you think 'it's rusty!' and 'early reports were misleading!' is enough to invalidate the claim you shouldnt be posting about this shit.

Lastly, Junkie, i don't have to disprove you. Hell, i cant, your claims are too vacuous to attack. Demanding a refutation to assertions you havent provided any evidence for is juvenile and not going to get us anywhere.


Well, there are the humanitarian considerations.


I hate to go here but:

We attacked germany in WW2. We refused to recognize their nation's borders and invaded them, and then pushed well into borders we DID acknowledge. It takes a lot to morally justify war, but it definitely happens.

[MartinH]

I'm glad someone posted the VICE guide to north korea, that one cracked me up and got me looking for more info on the country.

Can't really add anything else that hasn't been said already, maybe only that i think that NK is a country that will burn itself out eventually if they don't change their ways. Who will step in and pick up the pieces when they do is another story though.

[Joseph Silverman]

I'm glad someone posted the VICE guide to north korea, that one cracked me up and got me looking for more info on the country.

Can't really add anything else that hasn't been said already, maybe only that i think that NK is a country that will burn itself out eventually if they don't change their ways. Who will step in and pick up the pieces when they do is another story though.

Now THAT i dont care about. China and russia and the other 'eastern' powers have tons of people they need to protect and take care of too, if they economically profit from this mess instead of us more power to them.

It's only really the 'rogue state that maintains a policy of aggression toward their neighbors' part that bothers me

[jrs100000]

I dont think that anyone here has said that the US should attack north Korea, except as an obvious joke.


I also dont see how a Gulf of Tonkin style incident would be required to cause tension along the naval border either. The wiki article on the Norther Limit Line does a pretty good job of describing the problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Limit_Line

The naval border between north and south Korea is highly disputed and shots are regularly fired back and forth between vessels patrolling those waters.

[Joseph Silverman]

I dont think that anyone here has said that the US should attack north Korea, except as an obvious joke.


Agreed. However the possibility of a western military invention due to north korean aggression is scarily plausible any day.

[ghost-d]

Do you understand how Oxidization ('rust' in this case) works?

Torpedos explode, dumbass.



So what you´re saying is that it was oxidated, and that the ink written sign that was called to be proof it´s by NK just stayed there? How does oxidation work when it´s all oxidated and the ink just stays clearly visible on it? really makes me wonder. isn´t it really possible that it was really just some rusty crap and someone took a pen to make draw signs on it? Wouldn´t surprise me, you know. Vaporizing airplane parts, WMD,... and now simply a rusty piece of crap. Or do you have any physical explanation to these two too?

[jrs100000]

Conventional missiles burn and kill thousands of people just fine too.

Yes, but a couple thousand lives at risk in Tokyo is pretty insignificant compared to the millions of Koreans that would assuredly dieing within that same hypothetical time frame.

[kingcobra]

well as korean who actually served madatory militaly sevice for 3 years for south korea, I can say this much... they won't be a war. never.

this threat from NK happens all the time. It is likes rituals. they don't have any capability to start a war. Funny and scary thing is that media especally american conservity media outlet such as FOX push this agenda hard. GO to korean news site , chinaese news site or japan. you will find out much diffrent tone of news. World cup is more big new than this.

Even in PATAGON war senario concluded that there can not be a war becouse of unthinkable casualities that directly related to japan and china. and thoses two don;t want that happen.


you guys have to open your eyes, and do not suck into propaganda of some special interest group.

peace

[TheWinterLord]

well as korean who actually served madatory militaly sevice for 3 years for south korea, I can say this much... they won't be a war. never.

this threat from NK happens all the time. It is likes rituals. they don't have any capability to start a war. Funny and scary thing is that media especally american conservity media outlet such as FOX push this agenda hard. GO to korean news site , chinaese news site or japan. you will find out much diffrent tone of news. World cup is more big new than this.

Even in PATAGON war senario concluded that there can not be a war becouse of unthinkable casualities that directly related to japan and china. and thoses two don;t want that happen.


you guys have to open your eyes, and do not suck into propaganda of some special interest group.

peace

Thats only what SK tells you -_-' ^^

[jrs100000]

well as korean who actually served madatory militaly sevice for 3 years for south korea, I can say this much... they won't be a war. never.

this threat from NK happens all the time. It is likes rituals. they don't have any capability to start a war. Funny and scary thing is that media especally american conservity media outlet such as FOX push this agenda hard. GO to korean news site , chinaese news site or japan. you will find out much diffrent tone of news. World cup is more big new than this.

Even in PATAGON war senario concluded that there can not be a war becouse of unthinkable casualities that directly related to japan and china. and thoses two don;t want that happen.


you guys have to open your eyes, and do not suck into propaganda of some special interest group.

peace

I thought 3 years was for the KNP? I hope they didnt change it recently cause you guys had it rough.

[kingcobra]

haha that is right winterlord. the propaganda is all around us. I also have to opem my eyes.

[Joseph Silverman]

Yes, but a couple thousand lives at risk in Tokyo is pretty insignificant compared to the millions of Koreans that would assuredly dieing within that same hypothetical time frame.

You're right, because north korea has the weaponry and guidance systems and strategic infrastructure to launch ha precision attack on tokyo, but no western nations have anything to fall back on except carpet boming NK.


ghost-d: God dude your expert eye does not make something sharpie.

Airplane parts are light and thin metal, they do all kinds of weird shit when they HIT THE GROUND REALLY HARD.

Wmds were an intelligence mistake, those have happened too many times through history to count.

You're an amazing artist dude why do you write about this shit instead of like lecturing us on anatomy or something really useful

[jrs100000]

You're right, because north korea has the weaponry and guidance systems and strategic infrastructure to launch ha precision attack on tokyo, but no western nations have anything to fall back on except carpet boming NK.

No, because if they launch at Japan that means they are already at war with south Korea. That means artillery pieces open up, airplanes loaded with explosives take off, commando teams start blowing up transportation and utilities, and infantry charge into minefields and machine guns, most of this taking place in the middle of one of the worlds more densely populated civilian areas.

[TomDunne]

well as korean who actually served madatory militaly sevice for 3 years for south korea, I can say this much... they won't be a war. never.

Exactly. It's just not going to happen. The North Koreans have been singing this song for 57 years now, but they've never once followed through because it's really not up to them. A war between NK and SK would be another proxy war between the US and China, but neither super power wants that and NK hasn't got a prayer of going it alone. I'm more worried about being mauled by grizzly bears than I am the North Korean war machine.

[ghost-d]

You're right, because north korea has the weaponry and guidance systems and strategic infrastructure to launch ha precision attack on tokyo, but no western nations have anything to fall back on except carpet boming NK.


ghost-d: God dude your expert eye does not make something sharpie.

Airplane parts are light and thin metal, they do all kinds of weird shit when they HIT THE GROUND REALLY HARD.

Wmds were an intelligence mistake, those have happened too many times through history to count.

You're an amazing artist dude why do you write about this shit instead of like lecturing us on anatomy or something really useful

Maybe you didn´t get my post regarding the airplane parts - I meant those wings that should have vaporized just before airplane hit pentagon and that was supposed to be the reason why the hole in pentagon wasn´t that big (and why the streetlights were juuust fine). that´s what I was mocking. and also the fact that on the single one camera file we are allowed to see isn´t any airplane. just detonation.
WMD. Well, too many people died because of this mistake (funny thing: "intelligence" and "mistake"). what if these news are also just another "mistake"? same people are telling us this crap. same media, same puppeteers (only puppets changed).
and according to art: politics is one thing, and art is another. these two shouldn´t mix here. we probably couldn´t have a beer together, but that doesn´t matter when we meet on "pimp and previews" battlefield.

[Joseph Silverman]

We could totally have a beer together! How little you understand the facts doesn't make your overall stance (mistrust and defiance of an impersonal government) any less valid, it just makes you look stupid when you argue it.


But seriously the plane is pretty simple. The plane hit the ground first, and only the HUGE HEAVY PART had enough force left to PUNCH THROUGH A MASSIVE LIMESTONE WALL. I don't know if you have much limestone arcitecture around there, but i'm from indiana and everything around here is built with that shit, and it's absurdly sturdy. Even a building that WASN'T reinforced for impacts would make short work of flimsy plane wings, especially after they lost most of their speed. Have you ever crushed an aluminum can with your hand? You can make pretty short work of one without hurting yourself at all. The same thing goes at a much bigger scale for 747 wings (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2pgSqtbZECA/Se4FtdN_rXI/AAAAAAAAADU/KDqFUvP1Xc4/s400/747wing.jpg) and gigantic, sturdy, stone structures. http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.asp

'intelligence' is notoriously imprecise and yeah it makes the name pretty cute. The same sort of a mistake sunk Imperial japan at midway -- we should count our blessings that we didn't lose half the globe and collapse as a nation shortly after that bungle.

All that said, we shouldnt trust a thing the government says, and i agree with you there. It's just i DO trust the things that physics, engineering, history, and normal lower level government employees with normal lives say.

[ghost-d]

We could totally have a beer together! How little you understand the facts doesn't make your overall stance (mistrust and defiance of an impersonal government) any less valid, it just makes you look stupid when you argue it.

and this is exactly why we couldn´t have a beer together. I named you about three things (1 - totally idiotic official report on why the pentagon hole isn´t that big; 2 - why there aren´t we allowed to see all the camera records from that area from that day; 3 - WMD mistake leading to thousands of civilians dead should be a reason for US intelligence to shut up and be mocked by public and other countries as soon as they come up with some new threat) and none of those you´ve disproved/clarify, yet you´re calling my opinions stupid. See? even for the beer I could give you a reason.

Also, it´s just funny to hear about the self-called toughest nation being so scared each and every day. don´t you all feel stupid when your leaders make you look like bunch of sissies? Seriously, why do you allow that? Or is it true?

[Joseph Silverman]

Or is it true?


Historically, small weak nations have taken over large portions of Europe multiple times. It rarely takes money and power to achieve military dominance, at least not in the short term. Just good timing and inspiration. Writing a guy off as a threat just because they're little and weak is ridiculous.

I refuted both your WMD point with 'intelligence has always sucked throughout history, where do you THINK they are?' and your plane shit with a snopes article and the most basic concepts of highschool physics. If you think the explanation of why the hole isnt that big is idiotic, you really don't have any idea how even the simplest physical concepts work. Not much mass + not much speed = not much damage. Why would the wings have ever damaged a building like the pentagon? The holes left in the flimsy glass wtc towers weren't even that big.

[bbob]

How the feck did this turn into this 9/11 "truther" shit? Mehh

9/11 simply could not have been orchestrated by the bush government, because it actually happened and succeeded.

[ghost-d]

We could totally have a beer together! How little you understand the facts doesn't make your overall stance (mistrust and defiance of an impersonal government) any less valid, it just makes you look stupid when you argue it.


But seriously the plane is pretty simple. The plane hit the ground first, and only the HUGE HEAVY PART had enough force left to PUNCH THROUGH A MASSIVE LIMESTONE WALL. I don't know if you have much limestone arcitecture around there, but i'm from indiana and everything around here is built with that shit, and it's absurdly sturdy. Even a building that WASN'T reinforced for impacts would make short work of flimsy plane wings, especially after they lost most of their speed. Have you ever crushed an aluminum can with your hand? You can make pretty short work of one without hurting yourself at all. The same thing goes at a much bigger scale for 747 wings (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_2pgSqtbZECA/Se4FtdN_rXI/AAAAAAAAADU/KDqFUvP1Xc4/s400/747wing.jpg) and gigantic, sturdy, stone structures. http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.asp

'intelligence' is notoriously imprecise and yeah it makes the name pretty cute. The same sort of a mistake sunk Imperial japan at midway -- we should count our blessings that we didn't lose half the globe and collapse as a nation shortly after that bungle.

All that said, we shouldnt trust a thing the government says, and i agree with you there. It's just i DO trust the things that physics, engineering, history, and normal lower level government employees with normal lives say.

If it was so, there would be a crater in front of the bulding with the parts that "didn´t have force enough to make it to the wall" (which is really stupid, sorry to say that) and still doesn´t explain the streetlights not being touched by the wings. And it also doesn´t explain why can´t we finally see full uncut camera recordings from all the cameras around that area from that day. any idea? no? here comes your "trust". You´d rather make things up and tweak even gravitation if you´d have to just not to ask questions. why? what good can it make? believe everything you see and hear on TV, even that ALF lives on Malmac. Good lord, you can´t be serious with this. this discussion is pointless...

[Joseph Silverman]

How the feck did this turn into this 9/11 "truther" shit? Mehh

9/11 simply could not have been orchestrated by the bush government, because it actually happened and succeeded.

The bush administration wouldve forgotten the heavy Fuselage part and just thrown wings at the pentagon.

Later they would demand an expensive investigation as to why they couldn't damage the building and terrify the public

[EricV]

Nope, you're the only one that has it figured out. Congratulations on being so brilliant. This thread can end now, kthxbai.

=/

[EricV]

How the feck did this turn into this 9/11 "truther" shit? Mehh

9/11 simply could not have been orchestrated by the bush government, because it actually happened and succeeded.


but it was orchestrated nonetheless. Bush was just a frontman/PR guy used to sell the war and sell everyone on the idea of terrorism. The man was literally retarded, theres no way he himself could even conceive of such an event

guys like Cheney and Rumsfeld on the other hand are pretty intelligent men and played there part as well.

[JFletcher]

Fucking default avatars, screwing with my head at 3am.

Anyway, My opinion means nothing and i cant really make a good argument, but after watching those 2 documentary videos....Holy shit.

I'm not American but that image Junkie_XL linked takes the piss. Nobody likes wars and military spending, but its there for a reason.

[xvampire]

lol this thread still on going

little bit off topic but
if you make war games this could be very good detailed source for game design
because its based on real documents just been released.

http://wardiary.wikileaks.org/

now complete with online log tab
and google map/earth marking for your convenience ...

[trancerobot]

but it was orchestrated nonetheless. Bush was just a frontman/PR guy used to sell the war and sell everyone on the idea of terrorism. The man was literally retarded, theres no way he himself could even conceive of such an event

guys like Cheney and Rumsfeld on the other hand are pretty intelligent men and played there part as well.

Pardon me, but I think you're nuts.

[bbob]

but it was orchestrated nonetheless. Bush was just a frontman/PR guy used to sell the war and sell everyone on the idea of terrorism. The man was literally retarded, theres no way he himself could even conceive of such an event

guys like Cheney and Rumsfeld on the other hand are pretty intelligent men and played there part as well.

If you are really looking for the truth, you should make theories that fit the facts, instead of bending facts to fit your theories. Oh and you shouldnt believe everything you see in a documentary either, especially controversial ones, go fact-check and see for yourself.

[EricV]

If you are really looking for the truth, you should make theories that fit the facts, instead of bending facts to fit your theories. Oh and you shouldnt believe everything you see in a documentary either, especially controversial ones, go fact-check and see for yourself.

the truth is the official version is the real conspiracy. its amazing how repeating the same lie over and over constitutes facts to so many...think about it

[bbob]

Did you read up on the reports, or did you just watch zeitgeist?

[ghost-d]

the truth is the official version is the real conspiracy. its amazing how repeating the same lie over and over constitutes facts to so many...think about it

Give it up. You can´t argue with these people. They´re blind. No matter how many times you ask them why the government won´t show a single camera file with airplane crashing into pentagon, they won´t answer. They´re the ones bending the facts to fit their government trusting minds (doesn´t need to much bending though... if you know what I mean). They will never question the official version because "we should trust our president" (as britney spears said with a chewing gum in her mouth).
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman" - they believed even this. do you think that they felt stupid when he admited that he lied? no... do you think they felt sorry for supporting wars that showed up to be just a unjust? no... and even later when the things clear up they won´t feel stupid for trusting these assholes that lead the country now. it´s messed up DNA or what...

[bbob]

"These people"?

Just because believe something thats different than the official story, does not make you free thinkers, especially not when its justified with bullshit to such a staggering degree. Have you done some research yourself, besides just listening to some assholes like Alex Jones or Korey Rowe? Have you at least looked into detail of both explanations? I'm guessing not.

[EricV]

Believe me Ive read a lot of shit, and heard plenty from both sides

[ghost-d]

Excuse me, I knew that it was all bullshit before I heard about Alex Jones and I don´t have an idea who´s Korey Rowe. I don´t need anyone to tell me what to think. Not government, not anyone else. I watch news, listen to what the assholes say and think about what they say as a normal person would do. I´m the one creating my own opinion. But when you´re already here... then YOU. You tell me why the government won´t show a camera file with an airplane crashing into pentagon. It´s still this one question. WHY? Why? they don´t have cameras around that area? Try pissing on the street in there and you´ll see how much evidence there will be to support the ticket. But when it comes to an Airplane crashing on Pentagon, I don´t know for some reason the cameras just looked the other way or what..? Maybe they´re in it too. It´s not the government! It´s the cameras! They failed on purpose just to make us think it was a conspiracy. Smart move, taliban. Smart move. Really made me think that there´s something wrong with your government at first, but now I see it.
It´s "War of the worlds" once again. They tell you there are aliens and you´ll see them. It´s just sad, sad that so many people will die (I mean civilians in the countries you invade. I couldn´t care less about dead US and NATO soldiers. big machos bullying innocent people and then paying their enemies just so they didn´t have to fight. just yesterday one soldier was killed and one was captured when they "wandered" into enemy territory by accident. funny)

[bbob]

Dude, I'm not flooding the boards with this none-sense anymore, feel free to PM me if you want to continue the discussion though..

[ghost-d]

Funny. PM? no. let´s stay here. on public. just one quick message. this thread can take one message more. so WHY? Why can´t we see any camera files from that very day around pentagon? I understand that you don´t feel comfortable with this question, but that´s your problem. You´re defending what you can´t defend. You trust the government with your life and lives of your children, so give me the answer. Just so we all knew how well you understand everything that the government does so we could all understand why you trust them. PM... heh.

And anyone who thinks that this is off-topic. No way. Remember the story about the little shepherd? Fist time he called for help because there was supposed to be a wolf. They came and he made fun of them. (Afghanistan). Second time they ran to help him again. he was laughing. (Iraq). And here he calls again (Iran, NKorea) and you´re still ready to make idiots out of yourself. Those villagers in that story were smarter.

[Justin Meisse]

so our government, who couldn't even cover up shooting down Iran Flight 655 by mistake, can fake a disaster on such epic proportion and keep the hundreds, if not thousands, of people involved quiet. Maybe they used government psychics or alien tech from Area 51.

[Skamberin]

Wasn't 9/11 9 years ago? Shouldn't people let that go soon? I think there are more important things going on than that really.. Mourn for those who lost their lives and all but, don't see the point in squabbling about who's to blame. Also it's extremely off topic :(

[ghost-d]

so our government, who couldn't even cover up shooting down Iran Flight 655 by mistake, can fake a disaster on such epic proportion and keep the hundreds, if not thousands, of people involved quiet. Maybe they used government psychics or alien tech from Area 51.

How many members do you think mafia has? How do they keep their things in quiet? Same goal, my friend. Or do you think that government lets anybody in just based on an application?

Still doesn´t answer my question regarding the cameras. That´s all I´m asking. If there´s airplane crashing into pentagon, why can´t we see it?

[ghost-d]

Wasn't 9/11 9 years ago? Shouldn't people let that go soon? I think there are more important things going on than that really.. Mourn for those who lost their lives and all but, don't see the point in squabbling about who's to blame. Also it's extremely off topic :(

Wasn´t WWII many years ago? shouldn´t we forget about the holocaust then? Same argument isn´t it? do you see how stupid it is? and it´s not off-topic. read what I wrote earlier.

[TomDunne]

I don't know anything about any Pentagon camera files, but I do have a question for the guys who think it was faked or whatever: Why do you have such a high opinion of the Bush administration's ability to pull this off?

If correct, you're saying that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al needed less than 8 months to put together a massive conspiracy that essentially everyone has swallowed whole. That is one hell of a testament to their genius, if they were able to pull it off. I mean, not only did they have to plan it and execute it, they've had to keep it an absolutely airtight secret for 9 years. Not once has even the lowest peon claimed he was in on it. Mentioning Clinton's sex scandal as you did, think how trivial that was and we still had Linda Tripp leaking the story. Bush and friends haven't had one disgruntled underling, one money-hungry associate or one guilty conscience under them just outright expose them in almost a decade. I can't decide what's more impressive, the plot or the cover-up!

But that question, the one of your confidence in the Bush team's scheming, leads me to another one: If they could pull off such an incredible hoodwink over America, why didn't they fake some WMDs in Iraq while they were at it?

Think about that one for a sec. If we accept the premise that they could pull off the greatest scam in American history, fully under the eye of the American media, why didn't they try to back up their WMD story as well? I mean, it's not like they tried to fake that part and got caught - the Bush administration never once pulled out any alleged Iraqi weapons and claimed they were legit. They simply never once tried to fool us on that one, and it would have be soooo much easier than 9/11. They had an actual war to cover their track ins that one. How easy would it have been to have a CIA team bury a few trailers of bio weapons in the Iraqi desert and then conveniently send an army patrol with an embedded reporter along a week later to uncover it? That has to be orders of magnitude easier than faking a bombing at the Pentagon to coincide with the crash of a stolen airliner, but they didn't even try it.

If the Bush administration were such exceptional masters of evil that they staged the entire 9/11 scenario, an event that I think would be the largest successful public conspiracy in human history, and needed just 8 months to do it, why didn't they follow through to justify their war? Years to plan, a warzone to cover their tracks, and they didn't even try. Don't you find it odd that they'd succeed at the hard part of justifying a war but fail to follow through with the easy part? I can't imagine guys who are so clever as to pull off the 9/11 event not thinking to stash some evidence in Saddam's backyard to seal the deal...

[Skamberin]

Wasn´t WWII many years ago? shouldn´t we forget about the holocaust then? Same argument isn´t it? do you see how stupid it is? and it´s not off-topic. read what I wrote earlier.
Honestly? Yeah. It's affected enough people, why keep it alive? Learn from it, never do it again, but don't keep it alive by bringing it up all the time. You don't see tons of people arguing about the Crusades do you?
And it is off topic, this has nothing to do with North Korea threatening the US :/
But whatever, squabble and be mad.

[jrs100000]

How many members do you think mafia has? How do they keep their things in quiet? Same goal, my friend. Or do you think that government lets anybody in just based on an application?

Still doesn´t answer my question regarding the cameras. That´s all I´m asking. If there´s airplane crashing into pentagon, why can´t we see it?

They pretty much do. Apply for the job, they check very carefully to make sure that you havent ever used any evil evil drugs, then as long as you arnt receiving paychecks from the KGB your golden. They swear you to secrecy and everything, but I think the whole Wikileaks thing shows how well that works.

As for the video? They dont care how much you want to see it. Declassing doesnt work like that...so if such a thing exists it will be made public right about the same time they reveal who really killed JFK.

[moose]

lol, wtf does this have to do with N.Korea anymore :P

[Joao Sapiro]

moose, people getting bored.

[TomDunne]

They pretty much do. Apply for the job, they check very carefully to make sure that you havent ever used any evil evil drugs, then as long as you arnt receiving paychecks from the KGB your golden. They swear you to secrecy and everything, but I think the whole Wikileaks thing shows how well that works.

As for the video? They dont care how much you want to see it. Declassing doesnt work like that...so if such a thing exists it will be made public right about the same time they reveal who really killed JFK.

Great point about how weak government security is. It's been this way for decades. Watergate was leaked, and it cost Nixon the presidency. Iran-Contra was leaked, and Reagan dodged the bullet but Oliver North was thrown under the bus. Clinton we've already mentioned. Wikileaks is making those incidents look like small potatoes, what with all the info they've just published. Someone always talks.

I don't think the mafia is any better example of secrecy - those guys roll on each other all the time. Everyone knows John Gotti, right? Head of the Gambino family? He's been on trial four times since 2004, with cases built on testimony from former mobsters.

[Justin Meisse]

conspiracy theorist thinking that somehow the US staged the SK ship sinking in order to go to war with NK. Actually it doesn't seem too implausible now, we did fake the Moon Landing and the Holocaust so 911 would be a piece of cake.

[bbob]

conspiracy theorist thinking that somehow the US staged the SK ship sinking in order to go to war with NK. Actually it doesn't seem too implausible now, we did fake the Moon Landing and the Holocaust so 911 would be a piece of cake.

XD

haha

[Justin Meisse]

This thread has run it's coarse, time to nuke it from orbit.

[Skamberin]

This thread has run it's coarse, time to nuke it from orbit.
The American government created this thread JUST so they could nuke it from orbit! I SEE IT NOW!

[Taylor Hood]

I never knew I was the US government...

But yeah, this thread has been on for quite a while.

NUCLEAR LAUNCH DETECTED.

[xvampire]

^ what!!???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OlCnPKr4Q8
Release .......!!.. the Kracken!!

[Joseph Silverman]

jesus guys.

Go to college, take some engineering and math and history and logic classes

This will

A- The engineering and math will make it clear to you why THOSE PEOPLE dont understand your crackpot theories

B- The History will teach you how mistrusting your government should really work, and give you a clear sense of what can and cant be done.

C- The logic will let you feel superior to people on the internet without making so many incongruent arguments

D- The college classes will get you out the house and maybe help you make friends and get laid so a b and c dont matter so much to you.

Anyway i'm gonna go renew my SUPER SECRET ILLUMINATI MAFIA GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE membership. It is a bit on the dl though so i gotta do it in a warehouse will nobody will see me.

-----------------

I mean, zero sarcasm here, i TOTALLY believe that my government is funding and arming rebels to exacerbate violence against benevolent governments, planning and executing assassinations on individuals they just dont like, deliberately misinforming the public about the economy and the state of violence in the middle east. I believe in stuff like THIS. (http://file.wikileaks.org/file/cia-afghanistan.pdf)

And i think the MEDIA is playing up countries like north korea, china, and russia as evil monsters when they're actually good, normal, living and breathing people.

I also think my local government, and everyone in every other state's too, maintains and executes policies of bigotry and oppression and racism unilaterally, ruining the lives of thousands upon thousands of individuals because they aren't the 'right' kind of american.

And all these ideas are very uncomfortable to a lot of people, but if i argue them i dont look like i'm fucking CRAZY because they are grounded in past and present policymaking by the US, not some insane fantasy about how a massive attack all across the country that fits the taliban's MO would be faked in the world's messiest coverup.

It's offensive to me that uneducated attention whore wannabe dissenters like you bleat about how you BLEW THIS CONSPIRACY WIDE OPEN because of your deluded juvenile fantasies about being powerful and important. There is real shit going on you wretches could take a stand on, instead of masturbating to the persuasive power of nonsensical tv-movie conspiracies.

[ghost-d]

So basically you believe media that AREN´T ruled by government at all, and every single small clerk would know about anything regarding 9/11 if it was supposed to happen. Yes, that makes sense.
Skamberin, it´s funny because I do agree with the thing regarding holocaust, but as soon as I say that I´ll be anti-semite.

In conclusion. Keep mocking everyone who´s got different opinion, don´t listen to arguments, believe authorities and you know what? keep burning people that have different opinion alive, just like the majority did with Giordano Bruno. How funny must have been listening to him saying that the earth orbits around the sun, right? He was standing there all alone - he must have been wrong. right? majority is what matters. Because people are born intelligent in nature, there´s just a few that wants to be stupid and therefore has different opinion. It can´t be that those blindly agreeing with media are the lazy idiots that don´t question anything and live their lives the easy way - not caring about anything. it´s us. I get it now.

somebody, please nuke the earth. thank you.

EDIT: I was asked not to call one of the people here lazy idiot based on this post. I´m sorry, but as I understand it, someone asking me not to call him/her a lazy idiot approves that he/she blindly agrees with media. and that makes him/her lazy idiot.

[Joseph Silverman]

He proved the earth orbited the sun because his math worked, not because someone flew out and took a look.

It was proven that a 747 struck the pentagon as claimed and the wings left the building undamaged because the math worked, not because somebody needs a video.

Did you even read my post? The media is the single most venomous, damaging thing out there today to individual, intelligent thought. It's just that the shit you buy into is the media too.

It's a shame you are too busy riding your own dick for being 'born intelligent' to actually educate yourself and look at things in a reasoned way, people who mistrust the government and actually take the time to LEARN ABOUT IT can actually contribute something.

[ghost-d]

SupRore... if there´s anybody riding his dick, it´s you. ok? I kept everything clean, wasn´t trying to offend anyone, watched my language and I was only asking question, none of which I got reasonable answer to. It´s easy do a macho over internet, so that makes you weak. really weak.

And obviously you don´t know about Giordano Bruno. He was burnt alive. so obviously his math wasn´t worth a shit to people blind like you. you didn´t get the point at all. educated...

[EricV]

Sup what makes a fact a fact? What is truth? Are fact and truth determined by the amount of times something is repeated over and over? Could it not be possible that if one person told a lie to another and he BELIEVED the lie to be truth, could it not also be possible that that person could then spread those lies, and convince others unknowingly under the guise he believes in what hes saying? That is basically the whole basis for brainwashing and subtle mind control, you can find out all about it if you educate yourself in that area too ;)

[MattQ86]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcrF346sS_I

Also this (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons).

Now burn this thread to the ground and bury it in the New Mexico desert under a thick layer of cement.

[xvampire]

lol ^ penn and teller show is kinda shallow , more like humor than in depth and well researched analysis,
tv show targeted for general audiences :p ....

but otherwise i like their show for lighter subject like recycle stuff :)

anyway think we are good @ debating politics ^^

[MattQ86]

Well it's not like somebody who wants the excitement of a conspiracy theory is going to pour over the National Institute of Standards and Technology Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster. (http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm)

These are nutbars who are to afraid to face the realities that a handful of pissed off religious radicals could cause a national tragedy using only airplane tickets and their cunning or that somebody as protected and important as the President of the United States could have a headshot scored on him by some lone gunman. Honestly, I don't blame them. It's a fucked up thing to deal with. To quote Heath Ledger's version of The Joker:

You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan." But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds! And so when something horrifying happens people with fragile minds retcon it into being part of a plan.

You want to talk about real government cover ups? When I first started using the internet there were all these websites that would tell you how to build a bomb or get past security alarms or break into cars. I remember having one bookmarked that was a GameFaqs-esque wall of links for every make and model of security camera, lock and burglar alarm. What can I say? I was like 14, loved Fight Club and had a boner for illicit information and banned literature.

After the horrible events of the Columbine shootings the government not only took down all of those sites but put a complete media blackout on mentioning such things until sites telling little Jimmy how to build pipebombs were forgotten about. Back then finding such a site was about as easy as illegally downloading an MP3. Now? Not so much.

Now put this thread in a bag, throw the bag in a river, throw the river in and ocean and throw the ocean in a bigger ocean.

[ghost-d]

Very good report. Really. Each and every point explains why the heck it didn´t happen the way the physics usually works. Talk about bending facts... Airwaves broke the glass. How come these airwaves (which long-year demolition experts claim that it was caused by controlled demolition) came before it started collapsing, why don´t they answer this? And the floors were collapsing evenly, so why did the puff of smoke appear only on one straight line all the way down the buliding? For both buildings. Both fell the same way. talk about coincidence. taliban really did a good job on this. some guys who hardly knew how to pilot a plane (I remember the titles "manuals in their cars on how to pilot the airplanes") just vanished in a building. Any pilot who says that that was a work of an amateur is either an idiot, or really anybody can do the job. why not?

[aesir]

UGGGGGG

uuurrrrrrggggg

grahhhhhh

ngggggg

(CRAWLING IN MY SKINNNNN!)

[Taylor Hood]

Rofl, Aesir. Your probably so drunk you don't even know your typing horrible Linkin park songs?

[MattQ86]

And I don't want to talk to a scientist. Ya'll motherfuckers lyin and gettin me pissed.

You know why the windows broke before the planes hit?

BECAUSE PASSENGER PLANES ARE REALLY FUCKING LOUD AND REALLY FUCKING FAST.

Jesus. Will a mod please toss this thread in a volcano?

[ghost-d]

You know why the windows broke before the planes hit?

BECAUSE PASSENGER PLANES ARE REALLY FUCKING LOUD AND REALLY FUCKING FAST.

Jesus. Will a mod please toss this thread in a volcano?

I was talking about collapsing the bulding, not about windows broking before plane hit the bulding. Haven´t seen anything like it. Read, dumbass. But it´s good to see how fanatically you defend even things that didn´t happen (who´s the theorist here, for gods sakes? I thought it was me!!). good boy, you´ll get a treat from the US government.

EDIT: btw what´s that quote? I mean the stuff about scientists I was supposed to say. I didn´t say anything like that. Shows your character though....

[MattQ86]

I was talking about collapsing the bulding, not about windows broking before plane hit the bulding. Haven´t seen anything like it. Read, dumbass. But it´s good to see how fanatically you defend even things that didn´t happen (who´s the theorist here, for gods sakes? I thought it was me!!). good boy, you´ll get a treat from the US government.

EDIT: btw what´s that quote? I mean the stuff about scientists I was supposed to say. I didn´t say anything like that. Shows your character though....

Sorry, you're kinda hard to follow when you're not posting awesome art and are instead saying crazy shit.

Also the quote was a way of paraphrasing while humorously comparing you to The Insane Clown Posse's song "Miracles" in which they state they refuse to believe simple science to in turn support their idea....of miracles.

[Justin Meisse]

footage (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/16/terror/main1622101.shtml)
but, hahahah, guess what, the conspiracy theorists say it's fake.

It sucks that you have to be a New Scientist subscriber to read this article Living in denial: Why sensible people reject the truth (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627606.100-living-in-denial-why-sensible-people-reject-the-truth.html)

It basically boils down to a genetic predisposition to trust the gut; is that rustle in the bush the wind or a predator? It's why people were more comfortable believing in the church rather than Giordano Bruno.

[Ninjas]

I'm not sure how this devolved into talking about conspiracy theories, but I think it's pretty clear that if you think that an event is for sure a conspiracy, or it for sure isn't, you are probably a moron.

Many things that people claimed in the past to be "crazy conspiracy theories" in fact were true (like signals intelligence being used illegally for widespread domestic surveillance or that evidence of WMDs was fabricated to justify a pointless war),

If you think XYZ is proof of a conspiracy, you are probably wrong. In the real world weird shit happens all the time. The most likely reason the government hasn't released this or that evidence is that they are lazy, or assholes. Probably both.

If you can't stand the idea of not knowing for sure one way or the other, get over it. That's how the real world works.

[Bibendum]

I'm not sure how this devolved into talking about conspiracy theoriesIt happened very hilariously!

[Skamberin]

I wonder how many potential employers are browsing this thread, looking at folios and not contacting people because of crazy theories and rude behavior

[Justin Meisse]

lulz, I'm sure my lead is at least reading this if not more people. Give me some sorta sign tomorrow to let me know, it'll be our little conspiracy.

[bbob]

footage (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/16/terror/main1622101.shtml)
but, hahahah, guess what, the conspiracy theorists say it's fake.

It sucks that you have to be a New Scientist subscriber to read this article Living in denial: Why sensible people reject the truth (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627606.100-living-in-denial-why-sensible-people-reject-the-truth.html)

It basically boils down to a genetic predisposition to trust the gut; is that rustle in the bush the wind or a predator? It's why people were more comfortable believing in the church rather than Giordano Bruno.

Michael Shermer, publisher of Skeptic Magazine also did a talk on the A and B fallacies.

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/michael_shermer_the_pattern_behind_self_deception. html

[Junkie_XL]

I might as well stick my dick back in this thread...

http://www.ae911truth.org/

Loaded with stuff to counter NIST.

**runs**

[SnakeDoctor]

Hey, I don't know where this thread has led to in the past few weeks so I am just going to post this and go on my way. I found this to be a very interesting watch National Geographic: Inside North Korea

-Disguised as a medical coordinator, National Geographic correspondent Lisa Ling gains access into North Korea and gives viewers a powerful glimpse inside one of the most restrictive countries in the world. Through personal accounts and exclusive footage, Ling exposes the difficulties North Koreans face while living in such an oppressive regime, coping with poverty, hunger and the lack of civil liberties.

If you have Netflix you can watch in on instant queue.



edit: as I watched I couldn't help but get the cult vibe from North Korea.

[Mark Dygert]

Normally I hate thread necromancy especially if its devolved into utter crap but...

If you have Netflix you can watch in on instant queue.Or you could watch it on ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxLBywKrTf4


edit: as I watched I couldn't help but get the cult vibe from North KoreaYea, I totally agree. I think the west doesn't fear their nukes, we have ways of making sure that whatever they launch it doesn't hurt anyone. The west fears the electricity and prosperity that nuclear power will give them which means they won't collapse and they'll be a pain in the ass for many more years to come.

The west fears the self sufficiency nuclear power brings because then they have even less leverage over them.

For all their tests and bravado I think they're just freaking out that the world has it in for them... mostly because it does. Which fuels the freak out more and they respond with more bravado which pisses off the world powers.

The US can't fight another war especially one that will be backed by China and possibly Russia, so forget it. Call the troops home and start building vaults heh.

[poopinmymouth]

Ling exposes the difficulties poor Americans face while living in such an oppressive regime, coping with poverty, hunger and the lack of civil liberties.



I think it's amazing that Americans get so self-righteous about knocking North Korea when the US has similar levels of hunger, poverty, lack of civil-liberties, and vastly higher percentage in prison.

Oh but N Koreans can't have ipads, guess that's super important or something.

[Justin Meisse]

I think it's amazing that Americans get so self-righteous about knocking North Korea when the US has similar levels of hunger, poverty, lack of civil-liberties, and vastly higher percentage in prison.

Oh but N Koreans can't have ipads, guess that's super important or something.

Down with the US government!

And now we wait, if you are correct I'll be kidnapped and sent to a labor camp in the next few days.

[bbob]

But you can vote in the US, right?

You dont get dragged to work camps for cracking a joke about the president, either, do you?

Granted, things in the US might not be tip-top, but comparing it to NK is a bit of a long-shot, isn't it?

EDIT: Oh snap, Justin beat me to it, heh..

[Justin Meisse]

H-H-H-H-H-H-H-HYPERBOLE COMBO!

Christ, Ben trolled me, touché sirra

[Jeremy Lindstrom]

nm not worth it.

[Justin Meisse]

"Charge, angry youth!" is enough to get a year in a labor camp in China
link (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/blog-post/2010/11/chinese_twitter_sentence_a_yea.html)

[Sectaurs]

well, I also replace the name of every country with America in everything I read.

[oXYnary]

The US can't fight another war especially one that will be backed by China and possibly Russia, so forget it. Call the troops home and start building vaults heh.

If you go by the recent wikileaks, China isnt that happy with N. Korea and Russia has better things to do like exploiting its population.

[Mark Dygert]

China is pissed, because NK pisses off china's cash cow.

It's not like it takes much to keep the North Korean war machine rolling, they just need food and money which would be easy for China and Russia to hand over without actively supporting the military.

Mostly their support would come in the form of just not going along on everything the US says they should do... which is strangling their population and cutting off just about anything that would contribute to growth inside NK. If the US was not running down NK and vilifying them, or if the US's voice was for whatever reason diminished, China and Russia would probably be more likely to funnel "humanitarian" aid to NK.

Wikileaks also points out that not everyone follows the US blindly on everything but only when its in their best interest to do so (shocking I know). With the voice of the US shrinking its getting easier and easier to just not give a crap about they're complaining about.

[Kwramm]

North Korea is far from any country. Even China feels like "whoa free world!" when you return from North Korea.

In NK people can not travel - at all. This means domestic travel. Foreign travel is totally out of the option, and if you're lucky you can visit the Chinese border town once in your life and then your family will be held ransom to ensure your return. You cannot leave your town or your village without permit. There are virtually no cars outside Pyongyang. There are no machines for farming. Things like plastic fans (it gets hot in the summer!), bicycles, umbrellas, flashlights are prized possessions. Meat, chocolate, candy is not common for regular people. They are not allowed to get outside news. Even watching Chinese TV from their "closest" ally is forbidden. Fleeing the country is not an option - if you flee, your entire family will be put in a KZ style labour camp and people will be forced to divorce.
There's almost no shops, there just black market economy. The NK made goods are of a quality that's even shitty by eastern European standards. And the whole country runs just on two themes - the North Korean War and "how awesomely NK "beat" the US" and the deal leader. Almost all music, all news, all books are in some way about those two topics.

I've been to North Korea this summer and it's terrifying to see that a place with such absolute control of its people still exists in the world. What's also quite terrifying is what religious devotion people show to their leaders (and the cash they spend on maintaining their "temples"), may it be fake or not. But then again the majority has absolutely no idea at all of the outside world and they just don't know any better.

The place is totally run down. If it ever collapses there's be 20 million people who just want to get out, and rebuilding the shitty infrastructure will make rebuilding eastern Germany look easy. China has no interest in that, and many South Koreans don't find the idea very fun either.

[Taylor Hood]

Who found this thread and resurrected it? XD

Interesting conversation though...

[HonkyPunch]

If the thread is necroed, I may as well post something relevant, and interesting.
I find these pictures to be inspirational, from an artistic standpoint;
Otherwise bizzare, and bleak. It's an odd nation.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/kernbeisser/

[frell]

The US can't fight another war especially one that will be backed by China and possibly Russia, so forget it. Call the troops home and start building vaults heh.
China will never attack the U.S. directly, there is too much money at risk for their country (and the U.S. the other way around). Russia is currently Americas ally if I recall, and on top of that still militarily bankrupt.

The U.S. is definitely in a pickle right now, with Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea, and the soon-to-be war with Mexico (drug cartels).

Whats worse is North Korea supposedly selling nuclear technology to Iran. And after those documents were leaked it seems that alot of middle eastern leaders are very concerned and would prefer the U.S. take action before something happens.

Add that to the list above...

Im curious as to what this will build up to be in say 2-3 years.

[HonkyPunch]

Also I thought it was established that China was ready to ditch North Korea in the event of a conflict, because of the bad press they're causing?
I don't remember where I read that.

[frell]

Ive also read that China apparently doesn't know as much about North Korea as the world thinks it does, pretty sure I saw that in the leaks.

[Kwramm]

I'd be surprised if anyone really knows what's going on inside NK.
Apparently even Kim needs to be shown around... http://kimjongillookingatthings.tumblr.com/
Honesty, people fake reports about productivity so they don't get punished, and this starts way down the hierarchy, so anything that ends up in the actual government is the same made up numbers as in the old soviet union and eastern bloc. Basically nobody has a clue except a select few.

actually here's my impressions ..then again I only saw the "nice" sides. But still, being able to read between the lines paints a quite bleak picture. shameless plug: http://www.flickr.com/photos/29075182@N08/collections/72157624759464697/

[HonkyPunch]

Thanks for sharing, Kwramm. I've been building a picture folder on my computer filled with pictures of North Korea. It's really an interesting place to me, mostly in that it's the closest place to the old Soviet union currently in existence, as far as I can tell. I've always been really interested in the way that Dictoatorships, communism, and other such things work, and affect people/the enviroment around them. Like in all the pictures from the Flickr account i've posted, it's this barren place, devoid of much plant life, most trees and grass are dead, save for the few planted by the side of the roads to make everything look nicer. Also, in one of the pictures, there is a shrine to Kim Jong, and it's surrounded by bright, green trees, but other than that, all the vegetation is brown and dead. The picture itself is very telling of how the country actually is;
Everything close to 'Great Leader' is nice, green, and healthy. The people under him are more well fed, and the further you go from him, the worse it gets.

[dregoloth]

Apparently even Kim needs to be shown around... http://kimjongillookingatthings.tumblr.com/

That site get's bookmarked.

seriously, is there anything that guy can't look at?

It's just fascinating how the presentation and media can influence the very thoughts of people. I'd say old Kim's kicked every other dictator's ass straight off the planet with that personality cult he's got going on over there.

[Kwramm]

yeah, the personality cult over there is the most bizarre. In most songs you somewhere hear his or his father's name. Pictures of him are everywhere. Everyone MUST have a picture of him in their home, with no other pictures on the same wall (this gets enforced!). People wear a pin with his image on their clothing where their heart is. When there's power outages, diesel generators make sure statues and propaganda images are still lit.
There's a HUGE (almost airport size) mausoleum for his father (who is the real star), with full aircon (normal people do not have this), with transportation belts (like in an airport). It's spotlessly clean, full of marble. People get let there en-masse to see the corpse of Kim Il Sung - the Lenin mausoleum is really small compared to this.
As visitor you must bow to various statues of Kim Il sung (the father). There's even a wax figure you have to bow to, you know, because it's just so life like. And the north koreans are super duper serious about all this.
You can not fold any newspaper if the fold may go over his person. You must fold it somewhere else. You cannot get images of him get dirty. You cannot throw such newspapers away either if there's an image of Kim. We were told to leave them in the hotel and the staff would dispose of them in the proper manner.
Oh and there's also a huge ass museum where all the gifts he received (from $1 cheapo knick knack to golden kalashnikovs). the place is also the size of a medium size airport and runs forever deep inside a mountain.

[SnakeDoctor]

I think it's amazing that Americans get so self-righteous about knocking North Korea when the US has similar levels of hunger, poverty, lack of civil-liberties, and vastly higher percentage in prison.

Oh but N Koreans can't have ipads, guess that's super important or something.


Just so you know that was the video description on Netflix those are not exactly my opinions.

[Noodle!]

actually here's my impressions ..then again I only saw the "nice" sides. But still, being able to read between the lines paints a quite bleak picture. shameless plug: http://www.flickr.com/photos/29075182@N08/collections/72157624759464697/

Fantastic collection, bookmarked.

It's easy to forget in all the ruckus that North Korea still consists mainly of regular people that lead regular everyday lives to the best of their extents, that have their own hopes, wishes and dreams, and are probably not being policed personally on a day to day basis.
It's hard to imagine them having a day off, sitting in the grass or even falling in love when all you hear is about their aggression and indoctrination to become robots.

That's not to say the country isn't fucked up to an almost unrivaled, massive degree. I truly hope that North Korea can become free one day, without the need of a bigger armed conflict.

[Mark Dygert]

China will never attack the U.S. directly, there is too much money at risk for their country (and the U.S. the other way around). Russia is currently Americas ally if I recall, and on top of that still militarily bankrupt.And if the dollar becomes worthless or America takes on so much debt that people start to think that they can't replay it? Ireland, Greece, Portugul, Spain... they are going through this and lucky for them Germany is picking up the tab (which won't last much longer). The US doesn't have anyone to do that so far the US has tried to dig itself out of debt... by taking on more debt... It's not too hard to imagine that people will stop buying US debt.


Whats worse is North Korea supposedly selling nuclear technology to Iran. And after those documents were leaked it seems that alot of middle eastern leaders are very concerned and would prefer the U.S. take action before something happens.Yes please, America live up to your global cop obligations and police everyone.

Everyone would love for the US to keep running around half cocked getting in fights and brawling in the street. Not only does it keep the focus off the crap they do, keep the violence aimed at the US, and if the US actually does succeed at making the world a better place, they share the benefits with very little effort. to to keep going on expending their blood and treasure so they can sit back and complain about how oppressive the US.

GWB standing up in front of the UN and saying "we're going it alone" took all the pressure off of everyone else to act. Tax cuts and start two wars... brilliant.

[Arac]

I'm not pro North-Korea in anyway, but I do believe the US and the South are creating a political climate in which it would be okay for them to invade or attack. I'm sure they won't tho, as it would be quite disastrous for the South, even if they did win in the end. Don't forget that Seoul is within range from North Korean artillery.

I think they are just trying to get the support of China, and as a result isolate the North completely.

It started with the whole torpedo accident, which to me seemed fabricated:

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/23/world/la-fg-korea-torpedo-20100724

[Emil Mujanovic]

Whoa... I missed this thread when it started and it I'm surprised it's still going.
It's been de-railed, people getting bitchy, and more importantly... It's not even about 3D or game-art.

Nuking from orbit... It's the only way to be sure.