You know its cold when....

[Spur]

You have ice forming on the inside of your windows and your heat pump is set on 78°! :poly122:

Having moved to the mid west from the deep south, this shit is completely new to my wife and I! How is everyone else managing through this cold snap?

[Wahlgren]

I'm swedish, Nuff said. You either learn to live with it or die.

[Synthesizer]

Coming from Canada to Sweden I'd have to say I'm used to it as well. This winter is certainly the coldest and most snow I've seen in Sweden, but still nothing compared to what I left behind.

[Snefer]

Snow is beautiful. But girls in bikinis more so. Nuff said.

[Spur]

I'm swedish, Nuff said. You either learn to live with it or die.

Lol true enough. You guys are way more acclimated to this stuff than I am. Our first year living here we had 3' of snow in two days. That's more snow than I've seen in my previous 32 years combined.

[Stutts]

I moved to Quebec from Atlanta Georgia, and I have to say it is hard to getting used to it.

[Gallows]

It snows in Houston, Texas. My world got steady flipped upside down.

[00Zero]

its so chilly here in southern california. i think i might wear a light sweater to work today. ;)

[Ruz]

yeah its really cold here in the uk too. the roads and pavement were just sheets of ice this morning. struggled to stay on my feet.

[IronHawk]

haha! suck it up!

[arrangemonk]

i hate winter
thats why i have a central heating system

[Ruz]

what suck up the ice?-normally we just grit the roads:)
00Zero that made me laugh
arrangemonk - we have central heating but still its really cold
as the house has no loft insulation or cavity wall insulation.

[disanski]

I would trade off all the summers for what you guys get there. For once I have decided I am staying home this winter and there is no snow at all. I am so sick of it and it looks like I will have to put away the skis. looking it from the bright side I might get more time to spend on the computer :). Love winters :)
I also have one of those - excuse my bad English but I don't know that word - thing like a fireplace but made of metal and it sits on the middle of the room and you have the fire going inside of it :) Haven't seen one of those for ages and there is no better heat then that. You also hear the wood burning and it is so relaxing .... i might as well poor myself a glass of red wine :)

[Cojax]

psshh I lived in San Diego my whole life until I came here to Wisconsin a year and a half ago. Stupid snow. It's bad enough I own a torquey rear wheel drive American car.

When I left for the break to go back to San Diego a few weeks ago, I left my window cracked like one inch (opps). I come back two weeks later and my apartment is 42F and the heater doesn't work.....fun times.

[xvampire]

when my nose bleed

[Spur]

00Zero - Thanks! Rub it in a little more. lol
Ruz - Your home has zero insulation? Damn, that has to suck

[DarthNater]

Your nipples are so hard that they could cut diamonds...........

Yeah, cold sucks, but snowboarding is fun!

[Jonas Ronnegard]

it was down at -40c yesterday here in sweden, Thank god for warm swedish houses ^^;

[Target_Renegade]

it snows heavily on the south coast of UK. beware of the yellow snow.

[Darth Tomi]

Wimps.

[Disco Stu]

Seems like the whole world is having snow at the moment.
Australia can you confirm ?:D

[Talbot]

Over xmas break I went skiing in -30 F (with wind chill). It was at the base of Mount Washington in NH.

[Junkie_XL]

Al Gore's plans for world domination have been foiled.

[motives]

... everyone whines about how cold it is...

[Disco Stu]

I love it! Aslong as i can stay inside and observe the coldness out of the window!

[Zack Fowler]

I live in Florida and there was frost all over the windows this morning. That caught me by surprise, especially considering just a few days earlier I was visiting my brother in PA and it was 45 degrees. Hmph.

[Elhrrah]

We've not hit the serious lows in Michigan yet; had a high of 3 F one weekend, but other than that there's been nothing to speak of.

Although, one time up in the U.P. they closed schools and businesses because of the cold; -20 F was the high for the week.

I considered trying snowboarding this year. Instead, I bought ice screws.

[danr]

The news the other day the news announced that "the cold snap is set to continue"

Yes, yes it will. It's January.

[IronHawk]

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs156.snc3/18365_10100128767291250_13953134_58751752_2173087_ n.jpg

My friend shot this from his phone while biking home. Yeah I don't miss Mpls.

[Marshal Banana]

When you have a week of snow days.

[SomberResplendence]

When school is cancelled for the week because the city doesn't want students to wait on the bus in the cold.

[Mladen Jovicic]

when you live in winnipeg!

[rebb]

when Dennis Quaid comes to rescue you.

[Marine]

when there's a thread about how cold it is

[bejkon]

Yup Sweden is colder then ever now.

Took this pic a week ago. Taken with phone and unedited for your viewing pleasure:)


http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4760/swedishsexywinterpic.jpg

[Chunkey]

you know it's cold when your bollox decide they're hibernating so you're left with a mangina.... :D

Had work this evening, was only one of 2 drivers out of 7 who should have been in at the pizza place, got stuck in snow twice and skidded on black ice.... fun times!!

[Peris]

it was down at -40c yesterday here in sweden, Thank god for warm swedish houses ^^;

Jesus Christ and I thought it was cold in Stockholm.. well this is one part of Sweden I won't really miss when I move to the US next month =)

[IEatApples]

Really thick snow here at the moment, love it.

Nice photo of snowy UK from bbc:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47061000/jpg/_47061196_greatbritainjpg.jpg

[Lamont]

You know it's cold when your toothpaste is frozen. A lot of things in the bathroom freeze, so we started keeping them in the bedrooms. And it sucks when the mouthwash is so damn cold, hurts the teeth. It's not that cold really, but it amplifies when there's INSIDE your house. The trap door for the toilet got frozen shut by piss, and it sucks when you didn't realize it till AFTER you took a poop. Means you gotta get it unstuck, or hope that your steaming poo melts the frozen piss.

Yeah, I live in an old house.

[ChrisG]

when techno viking has to put a knitted pull over on.

[oobersli]

when the dog refuses to go outside to take a shit.

[moose]

snot and boogers freeze! its the one thing when snowboarding that I can feel the icicles of snot stabbing my face that makes me realize "holy balls, its really cold."

It has been really cold here in Raleigh lately... as far as Raleigh goes that is. No precipitation when its cold though, only when it warms up (boo! wtb snow!)

[achillesian]

The trap door for the toilet got frozen shut by piss, and it sucks when you didn't realize it till AFTER you took a poop. Means you gotta get it unstuck, or hope that your steaming poo melts the frozen piss.


quoted for epic

[Martin Henriksson]

I dont have running water in the kitchen because the pipes are frozen :(

[Andreas]

Really thick snow here at the moment, love it.

Nice photo of snowy UK from bbc:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47061000/jpg/_47061196_greatbritainjpg.jpg

That can't be real...is it?

[Frump]

Pretty mild climate here. Not too cold in winter, not too hot in summer. Right now it's not bad, it was a nice sunny day yesterday with not being too cold. Though even with a decent temp it rains at least 50% of the year.

The heat register for my room is on the roof so it's kind of useless as the hot air never makes it down to ground level... So I have another small heater I use to warm myself up.

[[MILES]]

...but Al Gore said...

[ZacD]

;1057419']...but Al Gore said...

global warming = wider extreme in weather.

[IEatApples]

Yea blender, its from NASA, it was taken yesterday.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/8447023.stm

[Anuxinamoon]

I wish it snowed here, its all just brushfires and 38 degree sweat storm here. D:

Lamont, thats some funny shiz! Perhaps eating a hot curry can speed up the process!

[Okt]

Everything in the garage is frozen, cept the Anti-Freeze... lol

The water bottles are deceiving, the look like liquid still and you can squeeze them and they act like liquid, however give em a shake and they solidify almost instantly. (COOL!)

[ElysiumGX]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1156659/hardnipples.jpg

[Autocon]

Snow is beautiful. But girls in bikinis more so. Nuff said.

I moved to cold and wet Seattle from sunny bikini beached San Diego. I think i should have stayed unemployed.

[Firecracker197]

its freaking 22 degrees F outside for Dallas thats f-ing cold! I hate it :< I cant feel my toes.

[Snefer]

Eat brown snow, it could be jägermeister!

[Snefer]

Yup Sweden is colder then ever now.

Took this pic a week ago. Taken with phone and unedited for your viewing pleasure:)


http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4760/swedishsexywinterpic.jpg

That picture is fucking beautiful.

[Vitor]

Moved from Portugal to Poland this year, and I love the winter here. It's snowing as crazy outside now. I like more this cold then those hell hot summer days you can't barely move.

and spur, you know it's cold when the river gets frozen:
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/1848/dsc02308f.jpg

[Snefer]

what? the river? nooo :P When the SEA gets frozen! :]

[TheWinterLord]

You know its cold when TheWinterLord gets a cold :(

[Spur]

Okt - I've heard of bottled water doing that but I've never witnessed it myself, would love to though.
Firecracker197 - I feel ya. Its -3 this morning where we live in OK.
Vitor - I dont mind snow, as long as the power stays on. Ya that's definitely cold.
TheWinterLord - That sounds like it must be pretty cold. Sorry to hear your under the weather.

[Jesse Moody]

When you dress like this and ride this guy to work or the grocery store.

http://shopping.syncweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/tauntaun.jpg

[Firecracker197]

any time your desperate enough to cut an animals guts out and crawl inside, you know its f-ing cold.

[Mark Dygert]

When you dress like this and ride this guy to work or the grocery store.

http://shopping.syncweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/tauntaun.jpgClearly someone who has lived in the midwest... When I lived in Minnesota my neighbor accidentally found a parked car while jumping snow drifts with his snowmobile. Ut oh... that was track on metal, someones going to be pissed.

[Junkie_XL]

global warming = wider extreme in weather.

meh, there are always going to be highs and lows until the day we die. Fretting over global warming is silly. Concern over smaugy dirty air...yes I can see that, but concern over CO2 in the air, a natural substance we exhale and plants need...meh.

People need to research carbon credits a bit more. Government will allow companies to continue to pollute that "dangerous" CO2 as much as they want as long as they pay for it. Sounds really scammy to me. Those costs will be filtered down to consumers...cap & trade they call it.

Ken Lay came up with the carbon credit scheme btw. People need to research more over the global warming hoax they keep embracing. Odds are people will just be pocketing the money instead of planting more trees.

I thought climategate exposed the nonsense. Hide the decline.

[Mark Dygert]

Maybe getting your news from oil barons isn't the best way to actually get fair and balanced news? Whats the old adage if someone says "trust me" they're probably lying?

http://video.pbs.org/video/1108763899/
I guess they're faking the satellite photos, time lapse and eye witness accounts of melt water lakes draining in 30-40 min? I guess glacial run off isn't a concern, who needs that pesky water? All just scare tactics and BS to go along with a global conspiracy?

Here's a question, what does it hurt if we do change our ways and ween ourselves off of oil?
What if we take the smart bet and play it safe instead of holding the gun up to our heads and pulling the trigger just to see if its loaded?

[Firecracker197]

lol! Sponsored by ExxonMobil

[ZacD]

meh, there are always going to be highs and lows until the day we die. Fretting over global warming is silly. Concern over smaugy dirty air...yes I can see that, but concern over CO2 in the air, a natural substance we exhale and plants need...meh.

People need to research carbon credits a bit more. Government will allow companies to continue to pollute that "dangerous" CO2 as much as they want as long as they pay for it. Sounds really scammy to me. Those costs will be filtered down to consumers...cap & trade they call it.

Ken Lay came up with the carbon credit scheme btw. People need to research more over the global warming hoax they keep embracing. Odds are people will just be pocketing the money instead of planting more trees.

I thought climategate exposed the nonsense. Hide the decline.

Then need to make it just cap, no trade, and if companies can't cut their co2 they'd be shut down, no fines.

[Junkie_XL]

Maybe getting your news from oil barons isn't the best way to actually get fair and balanced news? Whats the old adage if someone says "trust me" they're probably lying?

http://video.pbs.org/video/1108763899/
I guess they're faking the satellite photos, time lapse and eye witness accounts of melt water lakes draining in 30-40 min? I guess glacial run off isn't a concern, who needs that pesky water? All just scare tactics and BS to go along with a global conspiracy?

Here's a question, what does it hurt if we do change our ways and ween ourselves off of oil?
What if we take the smart bet and play it safe instead of holding the gun up to our heads and pulling the trigger just to see if its loaded?

This is easy to flip.

Maybe getting your news from carbon trading barons isn't the best way to actually get fair and balanced news?

See what I did there? Really look into the carbon credit stuff and the details of the cap & trade bill. Climategate too has been quite an eye opener for those who don't just circle jerk each other in the comments section of Huffington Post.

Glaciers shrink and grow every year.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=glaciers+growing&aq=f&aqi=g5&oq=&fp=e8d6ef47431c6a4a

No complaints from me to get away from oil. I just don't think you're going to get what you expect. Most seem to envision this world of everyone living off the grid with their own solar panels on their roofs. We'll always be paying to someone, whether it is for coal power or wind. Seems pointless to get excited over.

Energy industry lobbysts are in the pockets of the politicians and it doesn't really matter who you make your monthly bill out to. They'll guarantee you're still paying to someone...since they donate more to political campaigns than average folk do.

Individually people can do whatever they want. I just don't want to see energy costs go up on the average person because government is sticking the bill to consumers. You really don't have any idea what you're embracing. Price at the pump is going to go up.

It is admitted that your bills will go up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eimIjwWHZfM

[Junkie_XL]

Then need to make it just cap, no trade, and if companies can't cut their co2 they'd be shut down, no fines.

And cause more job loss for people in a tough economy...awesome. There is a ripple effect with just about anything. A lot of areas only get their source of power from a single place. So the lights should just go out for them?

[Mark Dygert]

This is easy to flip.

Maybe getting your news from carbon trading barons isn't the best way to actually get fair and balanced news?

See what I did there? Really look into the carbon credit stuff and the details of the cap & trade bill.It's an hour long special and you're already replying... looks like someone isn't interested in learning.

Ask yourself who has everything to lose and who has a "chance" to gain something. Also know that the "and trade" was put in there because certain powerful individuals with ties to certain industries wouldn't go along with just "cap" unless there was some way to make a quick buck. A lot of of the people for cap and trade would be happy with just cap.

[Mark Dygert]

And cause more job loss for people in a tough economy...awesome. There is a ripple effect with just about anything. A lot of areas only get their source of power from a single place. So the lights should just go out for them?I'll use the timber industry here in the northwest as an example.
A long time ago the only kind of job you could get around here was hacking down trees. Everyone cried fowl when they started shutting mills down. Entire towns dried up a lot of jobs where lost. People found ways to move on, we're a resilient bunch of humans (speaking globally not just regionally). This same area is weather the recession pretty well with a semi diverse set of jobs. Should we have kept on logging until nothing was left?

It doesn't mean we can't log, it just means we can't rape the land for a quick buck.

We did it with farming, and the dust bowl happened, we learned and we adapted.

We did it with logging and mining, we ruined streams and drinking water we learned and are still adapting.

We're doing it with oil and our air and we need to adapt.

I can make a great living as a crack dealer, it doesn't give me the right to sell crack. Sometimes the excuse "because it makes money" isn't good enough, when you have to do whats right.

[EarthQuake]

Vig, you've got it all wrong. The scientists are lying to you so that they can keep all of their glacier-based profits! Those pinko-commie fucks.

[Junkie_XL]

I find it odd people are picking and choosing who they want to hate on when it comes to making profits.
http://cleantechnica.com/2008/07/30/largest-cleantech-industry-is%E2%80%A6carbon-credits-at-63-billion/

Actually still listening to the program Vig. I'll probably watch it instead of just listening a second time later. workin' on schtuff.

Your analogies can only be used if you think CO2 is bad. Like I said, I never supported smaugy air. The reality is you can't actually be green without CO2. And the science isn't settled on CO2 yet. The IPCC is dwindling in numbers. People are actually leaving the group and there are far more scientists who don't buy into the push anymore. Like 1500 to over 30K.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=64734

Not sure why PBS isn't reporting on that. Or anyone else for that matter. I noticed it took them forever to finally cover climategate when the net exposed it weeks prior.

Something else...

http://newsbusters.org/node/11149

Obviously money to be made. Some in the media must be shareholders in these carbon traders. Just conjecture on my part.

[Mark Dygert]

I find it odd people are picking and choosing who they want to hate on when it comes to making profits.
http://cleantechnica.com/2008/07/30/largest-cleantech-industry-is%E2%80%A6carbon-credits-at-63-billion/

Actually still listening to the program Vig. I'll probably watch it instead of just listening a second time later. workin' on schtuff.

Your analogies can only be used if you think CO2 is bad. Like I said, I never supported smaugy air. The reality is you can't actually be green without CO2. And the science isn't settled on CO2 yet.I agree we can't stop emitting CO2 some is needed to make the world go round. But if we keep pumping more and more into the air and cutting down the things that use it to make the stuff we breath... At some point if we ever do start to turn the corner and temps decrease we probably won't have a problem boosting CO2 levels, we're pretty good at figuring out ways to pump it into the air, but not so good at getting it back out. It's probably a good idea to figure that out in case it is a bad thing.

China is developing now and putting coal fired power plants on line at the average of one a week. They stand to eclipse the US in pollution, so does India. We have a real chance to get these developing countries cleaner technology now that they can build a firm foundation on rather than having to retool later like the US is having to do now. If we put it off till later after they've developed like the US it will be much harder. There is a real chance the US could clean up its act and it won't make a bit of difference...

Oil will run out. Foreign oil production will hit a peak and prices at the pump will go up.
Would you rather see the prices set domestically for energy created locally, or by a cartel of people who hate the US?

We send money to the countries that want the US dead but they want our money first. What happens when they decide to stop giving us cheap oil, or can't because its all gone? They already ran tests and saw how it jacked up our economy. As soon as they have another source of income we'll see their true colors. Until then they'll let us stomp around and pretend like we run the show.

[
The IPCC is dwindling in numbers. People are actually leaving the group and there are far more scientists who don't buy into the push anymore. Like 1500 to over 30K. Leaving because the science is wrong, or because they don't like the way they are politicking?

I'll get to reading the links in a bit thanks for the info.

[Mark Dygert]

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=64734
www.wnd.comwnd.com has a lot of fox news links on its main page, and the other links have a very distinctive slant. Quite a bit of "hard hitting info" but not a lot of facts. The scientists who signed a petition who do they work for? Oil and coal employ a bunch of scientists, I remember a group of 10k made news a few years back by signing up. I'll see if I can track down the name of the group and check it against the names that left, oh wait the article didn't give any facts just fair and balanced info for people who don't like to fact check.

http://newsbusters.org/node/11149Then get behind cap, drop the trade and stick it to Gore. Show your oil and coal buddies where the new money is going to be made and tell them to get in on it now. Tell them to buy and trade American, energy. Stop giving our money to the terrorist they like to remind us about every 3 seconds like with the "terrorist, Jihad has returned" ad they run every few inches on that page.

Sniff sniff... yep smells fair and balanced.

Obviously money to be made. Some in the media must be shareholders in these carbon traders. Just conjecture on my part.The corporate media elite? Who said that Beck or Palin? Seriously fox new will rot your brain. Aren't you tired of their "buy gold" schemes, I mean commercials?

[bbob]

If I may add, the greenhouse effect/global warming is not about super hot summers and super cold winters. The hypothesis is that heat from the sun gets trapped inside the atmosphere instead of escaping out into space. That explanation does not cover colder winters no matter how its bent.

Under any circumstances, it would be nice to see both sides of the argument be more interested in empirical data rather than who is the most pious, or who makes more money. Because in the end of the day, there is money to be squeezed out of both beliefs. Luckily though, empirical evidence does not care about money or messiahanic complexes, it is just dead data, free from peemptive beliefs.

So what about if we, as the inhabitants of this damn rock, find out what is going on, instead of bickering about red herrings?

Oh, and can we get back on the topic?

[die_Kröte]

...when my Dad (from Northern Illinois) says that "it's colder than a well digger's ass."

[erikb]

... when you're at some posh shopping avenue and it looks like invasion of the Wookiees because of all the fur-clad people.

[teaandcigarettes]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1156659/hardnipples.jpg

Is this one of those optical illusions? I cannot focus my eyes on the text, no matter how hard I try.

[Asherr]

That explanation does not cover colder winters no matter how its bent.The heat trapped by the atmosphere heats up the planet. This heat causes the polar ice caps, where most of the Earth's water is trapped, to melt. This melting ice water flows into the ocean which have warm and cold currents. These currents spread heat and moisture across the planet. England and much of Europe is much warmer and wetter than say Canada which is a similar latitude due to the warmth from the Gulf Stream that flows from the Carribean up the coast of the US and towards England. Pouring a bunch of ice water into the ocean will upset these warm/cold currents causing less warm air and water to be circulated around the globe. That's how global warming causes an ice age.

[bbob]

That still does not make for colder winters and warmer summers, at the same time. That is a year round, consistent, temperature phenomenon, that is not exclusive to global warming, as it has happened before. The planet has been way hotter than this as well. When the roman empire was at its peak, they had vineyards in northern England, successful ones at that. That is not possible today.

This is in no way saying that global warming, just a reminder of: correlation≠causation not correlation=causation.

Correlation is just what gives reason to formulate a hypothesis, not proof of a phenomena.

[Spur]

Firecracker197 - "any time your desperate enough to cut an animals guts out and crawl inside, you know its f-ing cold."

I lol'd hard at that. Good point. Even with it being -3 today, if I was stranded outside, I dont think I could do that lol.

[ChrisG]

there is only one answer to this,

Humans WILL carry on using oil, oil WILL run out, humans WILL be fucked, the world WILL be better off.
Problem solved

[Joseph Silverman]

Bbob, asherr, you're both being dumb.

The global warming argument totally covers and allows for this winter.

This winter is also not whatsoever admissible evidence of global warming.

This is truly 100% completely irrelevant and immaterial and shows neither of you arent interested in making an effort to develop even a cursory, layman's understanding. So dont fight, it's silly.

its cold, i need to buy more socks.

[StephenVyas]

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa281/vraetorian/n870815164_1172799_6654.jpg

[flaagan]

On topic.. it's too cold when I can't drive with the roof down... which is anything ~68* or colder.

[teaandcigarettes]

Stephen; that's brilliant. I will be waving my dick around from now on, since I'm too poor to afford a thermometer. It's amazing how our bodily functions can help us save some cash.

[Asherr]

Knew I shouldn't have posted anything. I was explaining one single thing: how a build up of green house gases can lead to a colder planet/ice age. That's it. I wasn't arguing anything. But go ahead and judge what I was doing or what I may or may not know about this subject.

[Joseph Silverman]

touche, i was probably too quick to call it fighting. I'm not forum police anyway! sorry.

[bbob]

And all I was doing was telling how those phenomenon is not exclusive to global warming, to get back to my first point about finding out what is going on without bickering about who gets more money, as if that had anything to do with the weather.

Properly reading the posts helps immensively in understanding what is being said. :P

[ChrisG]

And all I was doing was wanting to feel apart of something:(

[Ruz]

you know its cold when people are wearing hats and scarves *

[ChrisG]

you know its cold when there is a thread discussing how you know when its cold.

[IronHawk]

http://squall.sfsu.edu/gif/jetstream_pac_init_00.gif

Why is it cold in TX? Hmm maybe cause the jet stream is flowing over the Dakota's.

Yes global warming is real and if you don't believe that well you're wrong. I don't care much for politics but weather and science I love.

[ZacD]

You know its cold when my cat doesn't want to go outside.

[Hazardous]

You know its cold when you wake up and you can see your breath.... inside the bedroom.

[erikb]

http://squall.sfsu.edu/gif/jetstream_pac_init_00.gif

Why is it cold in TX? Hmm maybe cause the jet stream is flowing over the Dakota's.

Yes global warming is real and if you don't believe that well you're wrong. I don't care much for politics but weather and science I love.

Within the environmental-science community there's definitely an agreement that there's an increase in temperatures, in some places, but there isn't consensus as to whether the climate changes are man-made or not. That's a fact. You can choose which scientists to believe, or you can make up your own opinion based on the manipulated empirical data released to the public so certain scientists can continue to receive funds.

In this day and age, the term empirical data's just a joke. There's so many ways to use empirical data, where to get them from, how to present them, what conclusions to draw from them, even outright manipulate them, the public can't trust anything anymore. Maybe we never could.

If anything the whole e-mail leak, the climagate-thing, proves there's just a handful of scientists in agreement out of thousands.

[PixelGoat]

I say BUUURRRR its cold in here, there must be some clovers in the atmosphere!

[dejawolf]

some more empirical data:
http://www.americanthinker.com/%231%20CO2EarthHistory.gif

http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage/?url=http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/01/co2_fairytales_in_global_warmi.html

and some more empirical data:
http://www.scotese.com/images/globaltemp.jpg
basically, we're in a cool period, and earth is beginning to warm up again FINALLY.

excerpt:
During the Early Eocene alligators swam in swamps near the North Pole, and palm trees grew in southern Alaska.
nuff said.
but really, i don't mind, as long as we finally get electric cars, and other means of cleaner transportation.

[bbob]

Just back in the 11th century, crops turned out twice a year in northern europe, which was the main reason for the absolute explosion in populace, it was only after the 1200's that the dark bit of the middle ages, and the global cooling started. Greenland became unliveable, and wine production had to stop in Scotland and England. People back then thought that they were punished by God for something they did wrong, and then the black death came, which made the church sell VIP passes to heaven. Good business that.

Nowadays you can also buy repentance, though in the slightly different form of CO2 taxes.. yay!

[IronHawk]

Within the environmental-science community there's definitely an agreement that there's an increase in temperatures, in some places, but there isn't consensus as to whether the climate changes are man-made or not. That's a fact. You can choose which scientists to believe, or you can make up your own opinion based on the manipulated empirical data released to the public so certain scientists can continue to receive funds.

In this day and age, the term empirical data's just a joke. There's so many ways to use empirical data, where to get them from, how to present them, what conclusions to draw from them, even outright manipulate them, the public can't trust anything anymore. Maybe we never could.

If anything the whole e-mail leak, the climagate-thing, proves there's just a handful of scientists in agreement out of thousands.

wrong.

NOAA the EPA and NASA all say the same thing is going on. Seriously do you still believe the earth is flat and we didn't land on the moon? Oh I guess those were just facts right?

and Deja wtf is americanthinker? I could put together a better and more legit site then that.

Well on the plus side we know how to heat things up if we come up with a solution that sends us plummeting in the other direction. hahahahah bring the snow!

[bbob]

NOAA the EPA and NASA all say the same thing is going on. Seriously do you still believe the earth is flat and we didn't land on the moon? Oh I guess those were just facts right?


Oh yeah because arguing against a hypothesis is in the same ballpark? Noone knows anything throughoutly at this point, the scientific community is split on this. So don't come here as a layman, and compare scepticism with pants-on-head ignorant cynicism, because that is both insulting and counterproductive.

So please, find me the evidence that you are appearantly swimming in, because I have had a hard time finding it, and believe me, I have been looking.

[Mark Dygert]

Oh yeah because arguing against a hypothesis is in the same ballpark? Noone knows anything throughoutly at this point, the scientific community is split on this. So don't come here as a layman, and compare scepticism with pants-on-head ignorant cynicism, because that is both insulting and counterproductive.

So please, find me the evidence that you are appearantly swimming in, because I have had a hard time finding it, and believe me, I have been looking.
http://video.pbs.org/video/1108763899/
This isn't a politically motivated video, its flat out undeniable unbiased observation that the poles are shedding ice faster than they can make it which is a HUGE problem. If its not caused by global warming there's another cause we don't know about then we need to find it and fix it. Global warming is the most likely cause so they're going with that since no one can think of anything else. If you know something they don't you might want to speak up.

http://www.nrdc.org/globalwarming/qthinice.asp

http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2003/1023esuice.html

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/PolarIce/

Even if the planet is getting warmer we are losing huge amounts of ice off the poles. Ice sheets and glaciers are shedding more ice than they are creating which is what everyone is worried about. So even if global warming is total bunk like you suggest we still have a well documented problem only if you're right we have no way to fix it...

[bbob]

The video is sadly not available in my country, but I read the articles you linked.

I completely agree, that there is no discussion wether the icecaps are receeding, that is a pretty well established fact. The thing is whether or not this is caused by human intervention, or more importantly if it is such a tradgedy?




Because if we look back about a thousand years, we would be looking at a much warmer world, where on the poles, it was a couple of degrees celcius hotter than it is now, which if I may point out is a lot more on the equator. In that period of time, glaciers had receeded drastically, water levels had also risen a couple of feet, but that was not a problem, because land that was earlier impossible to cultivate, were now booming with fertility.

Ores of precious materials had been revealed under the now receeded ice. Vikings explored further from Iceland (that was named in the cool period after the roman warm period, that was even hotter than the one I describe now.) and found a lush, green land, they apropriately named greenland, more of these vikings sailed further, exploring a place now called Newfoundland in English, but was then called "Vinland", or Wineland in English, because of the very crop they could cultivate there.

The result being a worldwide explosion of populace, albeit short lived, as global cooling set in together with the plagues in Europe, and if these people did not die because of the plague, they surely would have perished in great famines, as the temperature drop made successful farmland, once again, infertile and barren.




In other words, much more of the world was comfortably liveable. Hey, even the sands of sahara will become hospitable if it gets much warmer, as the heat reflected from the sand, will drag the monsoon in over it resulting in a rain forest there (again).

That, of course needs way higher temperatures than we have seen the last 4000 years, but it also serves to illustrate that this planet is more versatile, and liveable than most people think.




The point I am getting at, is that these temperatures are not anything new, even in a short perspective. Actually, we are only just moving out of the so-called "Little Ice Age". If the planet gets warmer again, we will most likely be able to cultivate, and live in the once so glorious areas, now unliveable.

Yes we might have to move, but it is not like the sea level will rise by ten feet by tuesday morning, so I think that there is no reason to call for assembly at Mt. Armageddon yet, because we have coped with this temperature rise before, armed with way more primitive technology.


It is the drop in temperature that killed our ancestors buddies, not the rise.




So instead of calling the non-believers idiots, should we not first figure out if we, as a species, has anything to do with this phenomenon instead of crying wolf?


TL;DR: Don't comment on this without reading it through, please..

[Disco Stu]

The world is getting so chaos hungry its sad.
We had weeks of snow here in germany more than in years, should be noteworthy.
Then they started saying THERE WILL BE SNOW CHAOS! last week and it didnt occur.
Now it wasnt a noteworthy winter all of the sudden.

[Zwebbie]

Even if the planet is getting warmer we are losing huge amounts of ice off the poles.

Pffft, Google Earth proves that the North Pole doesn't even exist:

http://www.joeyspijkers.com/misc_img/NorthPole.jpg

(Or rather, it does exist, but there's no ice in a surrounding 700km radius. Those are sattellite photos!)

[bbob]

*sigh*

http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/1582/original/picard-facepalm.jpg

[StephenVyas]

It could be many things....

It could it be that wobble of the earth has shifted and the north and south poles are no longer at the coolest points on the axis as we rotate around the sun.

From what I've read, the earth's rotation on it's axis isn't a constant variable.
Many I'm sure know or have heard of the Precession of the Equinox.
A shift of 1 degree every 72 years, which is why we don't see the 'proper' constellation over the sunrise on our birthdays

Our solar orbit around the milky way is always changing as well, as we travel along an oblong path.

Too many variables to say one thing is right.. and one answer is wrong.

[Junkie_XL]

The mini-ice age begins...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1242011/DAVID-ROSE-The-mini-ice-age-starts-here.html

The bitter winter afflicting much of the Northern Hemisphere is only the start of a global trend towards cooler weather that is likely to last for 20 or 30 years, say some of the world’s most eminent climate scientists.

Their predictions – based on an analysis of natural cycles in water temperatures in the Pacific and Atlantic oceans – challenge some of the global warming orthodoxy’s most deeply cherished beliefs, such as the claim that the North Pole will be free of ice in
summer by 2013.

[ZacD]

Pffft, Google Earth proves that the North Pole doesn't even exist:

http://www.joeyspijkers.com/misc_img/NorthPole.jpg

(Or rather, it does exist, but there's no ice in a surrounding 700km radius. Those are sattellite photos!)

No Santa? :poly122:

[Mark Dygert]

Their predictions – based on an analysis of natural cycles in water temperatures in the Pacific and Atlantic oceans – challenge some of the global warming orthodoxy’s most deeply cherished beliefs, such as the claim that the North Pole will be free of ice in
summer by 2013.Past natural cycles do not account for massive amounts of ice being dumped into the oceans. White ice reflects heat and light, oceans absorb it, meaning warmer oceans, faster melt more water everywhere. It's not a theory its happening we learned about it through practical observation.

It's all well and good to look at past natural cycles we've documented but can we blindly ignore the melting and just stick to the data we gathered which is based on when we had poles? Is it really solid science to ignore a big game changer taking place and not factor that into their theories?

bbob, as for the "we'll just move in off the coast and move north/south to survive".
How about we do something so we don't need to move 1/6th of the population and rebuild most of the major cities of the world?
How about we do something so we don't lose handfuls of small island nations who have nowhere to go?
How will the day/night cycle of the 'newly inhabitable' areas affect new crop growth?
If they're wrong and its not due to human influence then we go on living like we always have but we happen to not be polluting as much... huh... sounds like a win win.

Will we survive as a species if the poles melt and things keep getting warmer, sure. But why push it to that, why not be preventative instead of reactive? Would it be a bad thing if we figured out how to reduce carbon in the air?

Most of the models they are finding to be wrong, but not toward a cooler more stable environment but toward a hotter more unstable. As in they are discovering new methods that are hastening the melting, methods they hadn't take into account before.

You also have to take into account how this will effect global crops, areas that where once fertile land will change.

Snow packs that are depleted faster than they can be replenished means less river water. Which means we're more dependent on sporadic rainfall for crops and much more susceptible to drought and floods. Rivers that once flowed continuously of a steady trickle of melting snow/ice are now dry for long periods followed by torrential flooding because its no longer snow being stored and slowly released but straight rain water washing down. Happens all the time in California, dry rivers that in a few hours are swollen then in a weeks dry again. These rivers used to flow constantly.

Its hard to capture that kind of water and it often takes massive amounts of topsoil out to sea...
It's also makes hydro electric power unreliable and dangerous as dams would go long periods of having very little water then have no choice but to let the flood surge go or risk a rupture with even more catastrophic problems.

http://www.rockymountainclimate.org/website%20pictures/Less%20Snow%20Less%20Water.pdf

Take a look at Africa its happening there too, lots of drought in once fertile soil we can probably expect that in other areas that are right now our major areas to grow food thanks to snow packs.

So we lose some fresh water, and we have to move 1/6 of the population off the coast lines and we have to find out new ways to grow food and live on less land... who cares, we'll have palm trees in Alaska again, sounds fun, think of the postcards!

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/12/071212-AP-arctic-melt.html

This isn't a scenario where it will just fuck up a city or two and some people will need to move. This is going to change everything everywhere. You can't really relay on the staples that we can relay on now because they more than likely will change. Just shrugging and saying we'll deal with it then by adapting is pretty foolish. Might as well take the safe bet and get working on it now.

[bbob]

What if we grind our economy to a halt with CO2 taxes, and it turns out that CO2 has nothing to do with the heat? How about that we as individuals take steps to make less pollution, and stop forcing developing countries to quit developing before we are certain? Pascals wager may be all good and well if it does not inhibit you, but if you stuff it down the throats of those who will be inhibited by it, I think it is no longer valid.

Also, its not that the north or south will become uninhabitable if the temperature rises, we just might have to move a mile or so inland to get away from the water, or build dams. The day and night cycle will continue to be the same, unless CO2 stops the planet from turning, which is safe to say that it don't. How about we under all circumstances put some money in a fund for those people living on those islands, so we can get them safely away, are we not able to stop the weather from fluctuating.

Also, to make it clear, those newly inhabitable areas is highland, such as Scottish mountains, the alps, or generally further up the side of any mountain chain on the planet, which is too cold to cultivate now. We wouldnt have to travel far.


I am all for finding less pollutive ways of doing things, it makes it nicer to be in cities for one thing, it makes transport cheaper as we wont rely on fossil fuels.

But the core of it is that wether global warming in the sense we know it is real or not, the temperature will eventually rise dramatically at some point, melting the poles and so on, even if we stopped driving cars and farting, or god forbid, exhaling at all.


The melting of the poles should not be ignored, especially as it makes life for the antarctic people far more comfortable. Also, as we might see a rise in the sea level, albeit probably not a dramatic one.


The planet will not stop turning because of CO2, nor will the sun turn into a disco light or anything. If the planet turns warmer, we will just have more dramatic weather as the temperature rises, then a golden age while it is mellowing out, and a far more dramatic weather as it declines again. That is at least what you can learn by looking at the last 3000 years of history.

It wasnt easy then, and it wont be easy in the future either, regardless of CO2. But yeah, it could be cool if we could pause this climate, and hold onto it forever. But to be honest, I don't see how we have the power to change it even slightly.

[Mark Dygert]

Well I guess it depends on how you look at tackling the change. You can try to beat people and nations into going along (stick), or you can innovate new cleaner cheaper ways and lead by example (carrot).

If we can give developing nations more options and cheaper more sustainable ways to grow their nations then we should. But we shouldn't use the possibility that this isn't caused by humans to keep on doing what we're doing just because we don't like change. We should do what's right and even if the planet isn't getting warmer and the caps aren't melting we should pollute less so everyone can breath easier.

If we find out its not quite so urgent we can dial back our ambitions a bit but just know that there are people that would love nothing more than to keep on with the rape and reap method of doing business. Which is always super profitable but unsustainable and almost always harmful in some horrific way.

If you think its going down like it did 3000 years ago then we've got problems. You can't deny that we have more vehicles polluting more than we did back then. We also have less forest and jungles and way more people. How can you think that won't have an effect some way? What if we get the natural cycle, plus a whole lot more?

I'm also done arguing with ostriches. Feel free to replay but I'm done.

[Firecracker197]

you know its cold when people start debating about global warming :/ lol

[Needles]

I snows in fucking florida (florida http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail??blogid=95&entry_id=54956).. IT COLD AS HELL DOWN HERE WTF!!~!

[Needles]

I snows in fucking florida (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail??blogid=95&entry_id=54956).. IT COLD AS HELL DOWN HERE WTF!!~!

[StephenVyas]

Snowing in florida???? And there's been barely any fresh snow up on the local mountains here in Vancouver? :(

Weird stuff

[Needles]

It hasn't been this cold here since 1959

[bbob]

Well I guess it depends on how you look at tackling the change. You can try to beat people and nations into going along (stick), or you can innovate new cleaner cheaper ways and lead by example (carrot).

If we can give developing nations more options and cheaper more sustainable ways to grow their nations then we should. But we shouldn't use the possibility that this isn't caused by humans to keep on doing what we're doing just because we don't like change. We should do what's right and even if the planet isn't getting warmer and the caps aren't melting we should pollute less so everyone can breath easier.

If we find out its not quite so urgent we can dial back our ambitions a bit but just know that there are people that would love nothing more than to keep on with the rape and reap method of doing business. Which is always super profitable but unsustainable and almost always harmful in some horrific way.

If you think its going down like it did 3000 years ago then we've got problems. You can't deny that we have more vehicles polluting more than we did back then. We also have less forest and jungles and way more people. How can you think that won't have an effect some way? What if we get the natural cycle, plus a whole lot more?

I'm also done arguing with ostriches. Feel free to replay but I'm done.

As I said earlier, I am all for polluting less and doing things more organically efficently. I just don't think we should force developing countries to do the same unless we have definate proof that it is destroying the environment.

Also, I am not DENYING anything, I am just sceptic, but very eager to know what the hell is going on.

But yeah, I'll shut up. But please don't call me an ostrich just because I don't agree with you. The point of a discussion should not be to "convince" the other, but to cover the topic thoroughly.

[bejkon]

That picture is fucking beautiful.

Almost makes it worth it... Almost.

[EricV]

Someone might have posted this already but if not I think this is an important read or even just worth a GLANCE. These are all the hacked emails from the university of east anglia between top man made global warming supporters/schemers/swindlers whatever you want to call them:

http://www.eastangliaemails.com/index.php

Fuck this global warming scam. People need to wake up and open their eyes. Its all just been a huge fear mongering campaign, and really is just a big business.

[EarthQuake]

ok enough about globalretardation, its fucking cold out!

Got some freezing rain yesterday, some cool pix etc

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/499159/frozen_1.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/499159/frozen_2.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/499159/frozen_3.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/499159/frozen_4.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/499159/frozen_5.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/499159/frozen_6.jpg

[Firecracker197]

What are you guys talking about? Winter is over!

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm186/yurachan_photo/weather.jpg

[EricV]

http://www.eastangliaemails.com/index.php

I'll post it again

[EarthQuake]

yeah!!!! i posted 4000 random emails, most of which look like any other email if you actually pick some out and read them. SCIENCE DISPROVED

[eld]

it's okay though, everyone rich lives near the water anyway, just a bit more height to the water and problems will solve themselves :)

[Junkie_XL]

The United Nations’ climate science panel has admitted that it made a mistake by claiming that the Himalayan glaciers could melt by 2035. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/7031403/UN-climate-panel-admits-mistake-over-Himalayan-glacier-melting.html

[Mark Dygert]

Most of the juicy ones are "see attached". Well awesome I'd love to take the whole thing into context but conveniently I can't.

Oh right sorry not supposed to read them or attempt to fact check, just be awed by the massive wall of text..

[Mark Dygert]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/7031403/UN-climate-panel-admits-mistake-over-Himalayan-glacier-melting.htmlIt's funny because the BS part is the rate of decline not that they are declining. No one is disputing the fact that they are melting faster than they can be replenished. Its well observed and documented by a wide range of unbiased sources. No one and I mean no one is standing up to say the glaciers are holding their own or growing. If you know of anyone saying that I'd like to see the science behind it.

Its just the rate is slower than the alarmists claimed. It's still melting just not as urgent a problem. So we can kick it off down the road until it is. PHEW dodged that bullet...

We should figure out how to take carbon out of the air in case it does cause a problem in other places besides our atmosphere...

http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2010/01/14/co2-increase-in-our-oceans-may-stifle-phytoplankton.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/dec/10/ocean-acidification-epoca
http://www.america.gov/st/energy-english/2009/April/20090401153733lcnirellep0.5630152.html
http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=21758&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html
http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2008-05/ocean-ph-and-fate-food-chain
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111807469

[Ruz]

global warming revenge is revenge for sinking the titanic. what goes around comes around.

[EricV]

.

[Mark Dygert]

Well if they aren't bunk, and there is actually something juicy in there its pretty damn hard to find...

[oXYnary]

No one disclaims those aren't original. What is disclaimed is the context of the message interpretation and sound bytes.

[EricV]

.

[Mark Dygert]

not really. Amazingly FOX covered this and presented this quote where their source was the Washington post.

"we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty we cant."

this was in reference to their being data by them showing falling temperatures over the last 10 years, not the opposite.
Trenberth's views are clarified in the paper "An imperative for climate change planning: tracking Earth's global energy (http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2009/11/energydiagnostics09final.pdf)". We know the planet is continually heating due to increasing carbon dioxide but that surface temperature sometimes have short term cooling periods. This is due to internal variability and Trenberth was lamenting that our observation systems can't comprehensively track all the energy flow through the climate system.

Our system for figuring this out, isn't complete. But even in its fledgling state, the signs still point to global warming. They conveniently leave that out.

But I guess we can stamp it with a catchy name like climategate and get everyone to freak out with snippets and sound bites. Screw giving them all the facts and letting them make up their own mind. It's so much easier when people drink up whatever they pour out.

[EarthQuake]

Yeah, lets all take random snipets of information out of context and present them as if it means there is some sort of conspiracy, brilliant.

[Junkie_XL]

I'm sure most can't be arsed to go through that list of e-mails. This site bothered to read most of it back in Nov when the story broke. They put together some of the quotes like what EricV mentioned.

http://www.examiner.com/x-25061-Climate-Change-Examiner~y2009m11d20-ClimateGate--Climate-centers-server-hacked-revealing-documents-and-emails (http://www.examiner.com/x-25061-Climate-Change-Examiner%7Ey2009m11d20-ClimateGate--Climate-centers-server-hacked-revealing-documents-and-emails)

I’ve just completed Mike’s Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd from 1961 for Keith’s to hide the decline.

If this stuff didn't have some sort of plausibility to it, then you'd think Copenhagen would've reached some sort of consensus...but instead there was fighting and they couldn't.

[EricV]

.

[Mark Dygert]

If this stuff didn't have some sort of plausibility to it, then you'd think Copenhagen would've reached some sort of consensus...but instead there was fighting and they couldn't.Things work a lot better when the US just said "do it or else" and everyone went along. The problem this time around was the US said "hey what about india and china!?" and China and India said "well shucks we is just a bunch of country bumkins who farm for a living don't blame us we don't need to change".

We really need to get back to the days when the US just assumed it ran the world instead of working with it, at least things where getting done... After all the US single handily invaded Germany and liberated France, they still owe us!

kidding aside. It's really hard to get anyone to step up and take one in the shorts for the planet. Oil makes the world go around and its going to hurt if we ever have to stop using it, no political figure in their right mind would bring that hurt on their people willingly, its political suicide. There has to be some unstoppable outside force. For a while they had that, but now its been kicked off down the road for the next guy/generation.

[Ninjas]

Nice photos EQ--

It is so damn cold in the Bay that it was sleeting.

[Junkie_XL]

We really need to get back to the days when the US just assumed it ran the world instead of working with it, at least things where getting done... After all the US single handily invaded Germany and liberated France, they still owe us!

You sound like Bush wanting to invade the middle east. His way or the highway. That type of arrogance is why other countries are annoyed with the US.

edit: ugghh, this is why I can't reply to you right away...I gotta wait till you are done editing a billion times and adding/changing/deleting... damn you and your sarcasm.

[Mark Dygert]

You sound like Bush wanting to invade the middle east. That type of arrogance is why other countries are annoyed with the US.Next time I'll use [/sarcasm] tags for the sarcastically impaired.

[EricV]

.

[Junkie_XL]

kidding aside. It's really hard to get anyone to step up and take one in the shorts for the planet. Oil makes the world go around and its going to hurt if we ever have to stop using it, no political figure in their right mind would bring that hurt on their people willingly, its political suicide. There has to be some unstoppable outside force. For a while they had that, but now its been kicked off down the road for the next guy/generation.

Drill here drill now. Alaska has 200 years worth. Wyoming, North Dakota are ready to go. Gov't prevents them from moving forward for some strange reason. Then the foreign oil can stop and Tesla and others will have 200 years of time on their hands to get their shit ironed out and make cars available for everyone on the cheap.

Foreign oil problem solved.

[dejawolf]

i like cold. it was -27 C here a few days ago, and i was out walking. the condensation from my breath was freezing my beard and the sweat was forming icicles from my hair.
but it clears up your mind, and if you dress properly, the cold doesn't affect you.
get a pair of wool underpants, a warm jacket, and take a good long walk. or go skiing.

[Mark Dygert]

Thats your opinion. In my opinion there is a lot of misinformation out there and blatant lying when it says that there is a consensus that global warming is man made. Now there are 2 sides.... really all it comes down to is who do you believe. Either side can and are being called liars. With words like experts, authorities and leaders being thrown around like candy its easy to believe a source and call it reliable. I can see how it can be very easy to trust a source and claim it to be reputable. Big names and titles are attatched to all sorts of people and its near impossible for the average person to track all of this down in their spare time and verify the credibility of each and every source.

Just saying the signs point to global warming doesnt necessarily make it true. Both sides 'drink' (or buy) what is being sold to them and it goes both ways, not just in whichever way suits your argument.

I don't know if the earth is getting warmer or if carbon emissions are behind it. I've read a lot of stuff from a lot of different sources but they could be wrong that humans are the cause. It doesn't really matter who is to blame it doesn't change that we have some real big problems we need to solve.

Its very very well documented (not a belief) with very practical observation by many different sources, that ice all over the planet is melting faster than it can be replenished and this is changing the world in many ways. This is observation that you yourself could do if you choose to do it, no degree required just the balls to go and watch.

I do know that tail pipe emissions are not safe to breath and that smog causes all kinds of health issues.

We being a short sighted people have built in places that are still in flux, earthquake faults, land slide zones, too close to shifting rivers and coastlines. If the ice melt is natural we need to figure out a way to adapt so we can keep on in some capacity. If we can be long sighted on the issue maybe we can break the short sighted trends that have governed us as a race since recorded history...

We need to figure out why the ice is melting and how to stabilize it, especially the south pole, or we need to come up with a plan to work around it, ie move 1/6th of the world's population off the old coastlines.

Simply saying it's not happening won't make it stop.

We need to figure out how to sustain glaciers and snow packs, so we have stable water supplies for the future.

We will be better off with less smog and pollution.

[Mark Dygert]

Drill here drill now. Alaska has 200 years worth. Wyoming, North Dakota are ready to go. Gov't prevents them from moving forward for some strange reason. Then the foreign oil can stop and Tesla and others will have 200 years of time on their hands to get their shit ironed out and make cars available for everyone on the cheap.

Foreign oil problem solved.
Strictly from a tactical and selfish standpoint which is how the US operates. We should hold off on tapping those supplies for as long as possible. Drain all other sources then tap our last supply.

We don't need to dig into our oil supplies and drink it all down now leaving nothing for the future before we decide to change. We use oil for so much more than gas. We'll need it even in a world that doesn't use it as a main source of energy.

The longer we take to start the process of changing, the harder and more jarring it will to change.

[EricV]

I don't know if the earth is getting warmer or if carbon emissions are behind it. I've read a lot of stuff from a lot of different sources but they could be wrong that humans are the cause. It doesn't really matter who is to blame it doesn't change that we have some real big problems we need to solve.

Its very very well documented (not a belief) with very practical observation by many different sources, that ice all over the planet is melting faster than it can be replenished and this is changing the world in many ways. This is observation that you yourself could do if you choose to do it, no degree required just the balls to go and watch.

I do know that tail pipe emissions are not safe to breath and that smog causes all kinds of health issues.

We being a short sighted people have built in places that are still in flux, earthquake faults, land slide zones, too close to shifting rivers and coastlines. If the ice melt is natural we need to figure out a way to adapt so we can keep on in some capacity. If we can be long sighted on the issue maybe we can break the short sighted trends that have governed us as a race since recorded history...

We need to figure out why the ice is melting and how to stabilize it, especially the south pole, or we need to come up with a plan to work around it, ie move 1/6th of the world's population off the old coastlines.

Simply saying it's not happening won't make it stop.

We need to figure out how to sustain glaciers and snow packs, so we have stable water supplies for the future.

We will be better off with less smog and pollution.

I wont dispute that the ice is melting, I have to do more reading on that myself. But what I do believe is that it is not a direct cause of our activities. I watched video clips and read quotes from scientists saying that it is natural and that the earths temperature is basically driven by the sun. Which makes a lot of sense. These guys say that the chart that Al Gore famously championed in his film was false and they proved it, as a result he cant use it anymore at any of his lectures on climate change. The graph in question showed that Co2 levels match temp almost exactly and he implied or said that co2 drives climate. That was proven false as some scientists have said that although there is a connection between temperature and co2, that it is co2 that is dependent on temperature, not the other way around. This was proved because there was a time gap, a lag of almost 800 hundred years showing the temperature going up and down and then the co2 levels following. What then they wondered was the cause for temperature if not co2 levels? When comparing temp levels with solar Activity (the sun) they saw a direct correlation between solar activity and the sun. Which makes perfect sense really. Where else do we get our energy and heat from? It sure as hell doesnt come from the moon or some other source.

I also heard and read a lot that we only make up a small amount of all the co2 that is put in the air. Far more co2 (and you can check this out) comes from active volcanoes. It also comes from plants trees, dying leaves and the oceans believe it or not.

Im not doubting that the stuff that comes out of your tailpipe is bad to breathe in at close range. Its even a popular method of suicide I hear! But carbon dioxide makes up just 1 one of the components of car exhaust and other types of exhaust. What Im hearing and reading a lot is that co2 is a naturally occuring gas. One of many. And that co2 has been around long before humans! Tonnes of it in fact. We even create some when we exhale! Again you or anybody can check out what the major sources of co2 are and will see what they are.

I think what has happened here is that co2 and pollution have been presented as being one in the same when really they mean 2 different things. When people talk about pollution, that I completely agree with them on. Things like oil spils in the ocean or dumping of toxic materials in swamps....that kind of thing. I think that is the image in a lot of peoples minds as well, and thru this whole man made global warming campaign this one gas, co2, has been targetted and made out to be this nasty pollutant.

I dont think there even is a way to stabalize the ice and save it. In my belief and opinion I think it is all dependent on the suns activity and all this shit is just a natural cycle. If the oceans rise as a result so be it. If there is or was a way to stop it and stop flooding then I'd be all for it. But I dont believe that invlolves us cutting down on how much co2 we produce and release into the atmosphere and then taxing people for how much they use of it. People are going to continue to drive to work and drive there cars...how is charging them more to drive or more for their heating bill going to stop co2 levels if the same amount of people do it anyways? Because thats exactly whats going to happen.

[Joseph Silverman]

Back on topic:

Alright now, what's cooler than being cool?

http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/MTV+TRL+Presents+Andre+Benjamin+John+Legend+NebZQr k8TiKl.jpg

[Mark Dygert]

I watched video clips and read quotes from scientists saying that it is natural and that the earths temperature is basically driven by the sun.If you could dig that up I would love to read it. Even just an vague idea of where it came from I can probably track it down on my own.

Stuff*(Al Gore and his chart are big fat liars) Yea you really can't trust much of what Al Gore says and does as science. He's about as fair and balanced as FoxNews. They are both so politically tainted you just can't trust either of them.


I also heard and read a lot that we only make up a small amount of all the co2 that is put in the air. Far more co2 (and you can check this out) comes from active volcanoes. It also comes from plants trees, dying leaves and the oceans believe it or not. The carbon released from plants and orangic matter was actually captured from the air. It's why they are considering large swaths of forests and jungles to be "carbon banks" the only problem with this is what if the banks all of a sudden die off burn or become unprotected and release a bunch of stored carbon? Its a bit like storing old TnT in with nuclear waste... a really unstable and dumb idea.

Again you or anybody can check out what the major sources of co2 are and will see what they are.Even one car or one coal plant is more than what naturally occurs. Arsenic is a natural substance as is mercury and lead but you don't see me painting playground equipment with them.

We're happy with emitting because the wind and rain sweep most of it away to some far off place we don't have to look at. What do we do when that breaks down or we've put enough in the air or the sea that what goes around comes around? Are we going to wait until that smoggy cloud just won't go away? LA, Mexico City, Beijing, it's already there...

Not all of it ends up in the atmosphere, some of it ends up in the ocean. Which makes sense, a lot of it settles on the ground, on pavement and concrete then washes out to sea when it rains. This added co2 raises the PH (articles I linked to earlier in the thread) which has all kinds of effects.

We can put carbon and all kinds of crap in the air, its a good idea to figure out how to take it out.

We need to get to the bottom of ice melt and figure out what we're going to do about it or how we're going to work around it. The more we know and the more time we have the better off we are. The longer we deny there is a problem the less time we have. Which is what I see the a lot of people doing. My basement isn't flooded so who cares...

[Joseph Silverman]

It's almost as if you two are discussing two different and ultimately compatible things (man made climate change is FALSE, vs In the event of climate change, regardless of cause, we should investigate and evaluate our options) and thinking, inbetween a lot of chest thumping, that you are having some kind of heated debate.

[EarthQuake]

What i dont get here is, ok you guys believe that global warming is crap, its a scam real etc. Honestly what negative side-effects are there to causing less pollution as a whole? We may find out in 500 years that we had nothing to do with it, but what is so threatening and scary about simply producing less pollution?

[Blaizer]

Snow is beautiful. But girls in bikinis more so. Nuff said.

:\ true true

I feel the cold with 10ºC. Here, where we live, we aren't customed to the cold, but winters are very warm (5-12ºC) compared to other parts of my country. The worse thing here is the humidity, the sensation of cold is higher. I have to have a radiator in my room becuse all the papers i use to draw are like wet.

BTW, cold can be fought, but the heat not much without AC. We reached this past summer 48ºC!!, it was go out from home, and get fried as a chicken. You can get totally naked than you could never do anything, the unique solution is to be all the day in a room with AC.

We have had torrential rains weeks ago, with 1000+ liters per square meter. The city of Jerez was flooded by waters and our water reservoirs, in drought weeks ago, have almost replenish all the capacity in a few days. It's incredible, we also saw snow in places where the snow is something like impossible to see. Don't know if it something related to the climatic change, but the old people didn't remenber things like what we have seen on these days.

Errr.. we expect a summer with more heat, like 1 or 3 ºC more.

life in a bubble man!

[eld]

What i dont get here is, ok you guys believe that global warming is crap, its a scam real etc. Honestly what negative side-effects are there to causing less pollution as a whole? We may find out in 500 years that we had nothing to do with it, but what is so threatening and scary about simply producing less pollution?

their everyday comfort?

[EricV]

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[EarthQuake]

I think people understand that co2 in itself isnt bad but infact vital, but think that excess co2 can infact be quite harmful, and we are producing it at a record pace.

I'm all for taxing pollutants if it equates to better air quality and and less disease related to smog etc. I know it may sound crazy, but this air stuff is actually pretty important to me.

To me it seems like the concern is that a bunch of people are going to profit off of any fundamental switch, which i would never argue with. Clever people are always going to find ways to make money, and i'm all for people making money actually helping to reduce pollution, and taking away some of that market from the people making INSANE money off of the oil industry and destroying the environment wherever there is financial gain.

[Mark Dygert]

How would you feel if in 500 years (lets say you lived that long) you found out that one of the reasons you were being taxed to death was bacause of a lie?Probably a little better than being taxed to fund a bunch of programs I currently don't agree with. If I'm going to be taxed for something it would be nice to know at least part of it isn't a huge waste.

If you want to get your panties in a twist about taxes. You'll see taxes go up not because anyone raises them but because tax breaks enacted in 2000-2003 are about to expire. Wait no... this all started Jan 09!

Just because it might cost a little more doesn't mean we shouldn't do it. Sometimes doing whats right isn't always the cheapest. "But it costs" isn't a good excuse to kick it down the road when it will cost more and there will be less time to pay for it... Maybe we should have tackled this back when the gas shortages of the 70's where in full swing, maybe we would have already had it paid for?

It's always cheaper to abuse things rather than properly maintain them.
See the great dust bowl.
See the Aral Sea.
See deforestation everywhere.
See over fishing everywhere.

There has to be a distinction made between harmful chemicles and pollutants and co2. I think a lot of people equate co2 with being bad.The chemicals and heavy metals I listed are pollutants.
Arsenic: Used heavily in mining, washed right into rivers, steams and ground water. Also ends up in the huge piles of dirt waste they dump after they're done extracting the tiny amount of stuff they want.
Lead: Was in gas, yea as in little lead particles being pushed into the air. It's still in a lot of gas sold across the globe. 60 years of leaded gas and its still not gone. It also comes from lead smelters, metal processing plants and incinerators.
Mercury: Used in chemical manufacturing. Coal is also naturally contaminated with mercury. which we don't do much to get rid of it before we burn it. Guess where it goes... Yep its not just co2 being pumped out.

When there is more o2 than co2, it kills humans... I wouldn't get all warm and cuddly with excess amounts of co2. Sure we need some, but do we need more than what naturally occurs? Probably not.

Even if we need more its not like we don't know how to make it. Lets figure out how to live with out making more... its like a puzzle...

[Junkie_XL]

What i dont get here is, ok you guys believe that global warming is crap, its a scam real etc. Honestly what negative side-effects are there to causing less pollution as a whole? We may find out in 500 years that we had nothing to do with it, but what is so threatening and scary about simply producing less pollution?

Click me.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123655590609066021.html

My energy bills are already high enough. Research Cap & Trade. They want to charge/force companies to buy carbon credits if they emit CO2. This cost will be filtered down to the consumers. The bogus thing about this is, okay if CO2 is bad, why will you let companies continue to emit the same amount into the air as long as they pay for it?

The whole thing smells of a money making scam to make certain individuals rich in an all new carbon credit trading industry.

[EricV]

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[EricV]

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[EricV]

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[Joseph Silverman]

So eric, your stance is basically

"DATA CAN BE MANIPULATED. LOOK, I HAVE DATA THAT PROVES IT"


?___?

[EricV]

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[TheWinterLord]

EricV who u making a bet with? and does he she have to pay you if they dont: can support a claim between climate change and other pollutants? (time limit?)

[EricV]

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[TheWinterLord]

I want a million dollars! :(

[Joseph Silverman]

Im just showing that there are people that disagree and that there is much room for debate.

Why not say that, then?

Why not say 'while plausible, man-made climate change (and especially the ties to co2) is certainly not definitely proven, and we should maintain an open mind.' ? What you're doing right now is saying that this theory is not completely valid, so everybody should assume your even more asinine theory is DEFINITELY TRUE.

What everyone else is arguing (even vig, albeit with a heftier dose of dogma):

-We can say with some confidence the climate is PROBABLY changing. Climate change is a concern.

-We can logically say it is WORTH INVESTIGATING the possibility of man made causes.

You're contesting these things as if just because al gore is a politician and produced a documentary with some spin the whole angle of thought is absolutely invalid.

[EricV]

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[Mark Dygert]

But you're missing the point I'm trying to make. This whole thing is based on data thats trying to tell us that co2 is the cause for global warming. Thats what this is all riding on. there is no data or cases made for the effect of arsenic and lead pumped into the atmosphere vs temperature change. Im sure there could be if someone was paid enough to find out, but presently how often do you hear about that in the news? Co2 is being thrown around like its this crazy cancer inducing substance.
Arsenic, lead and mercury all come out of the ground with coal, are not separated out and burned to make energy (its cost effective to leave it in and pollutes more if you try to take it out). It's taken out of the ground where its relatively safe and put into the air we breath and water we drink. If it was just co2 coming out of a coal plant we'd probably figure out a cool use for it but there's a lot more junk coming out.

Co2, ok its naturally occurring and it seems to spike all on its own even without human influence. So what happens when it spikes naturally and we've already spiked it?

What about the other crap we're burning and breathing right along with the coal?

You dont know what effects arsenic and lead have on climate change. It could be very little to none for all we know. It might not be good but the point is taxing people on polluting wont stop them. Its just going to generate more revenue for whatever government is enforcing this.
I could care less what lead mercury and arsenic do to climate change I know what they do to humans. Are you seriously saying that because they don't impact climate change that they have no other effects? Read up on that sh!t...

Also the crude we get out of the ground has to be refined which has its own by-products. Some oil comes from oil sands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_sands) in Canada and Venezuela. Which is highly controversial as it costs more to extract and has a heavy environmental impact. But hey its all good, we don't need other cleaner renewable sources of energy. I could use a 4th arm and a set of eyes on my ass just because it I might pay $20 more in yearly taxes...

taxes are just one thing on the table. I can't say they'll fix the problem or that its the best solution but its better than doing jack dick nothing and just getting sicker and sicker.

I'll hug a tree instead of a smoke stack any day.

[EricV]

Arsenic, lead and mercury all come out of the ground with coal, are not separated out and burned to make energy (its cost effective to leave it in and pollutes more if you try to take it out). It's taken out of the ground where its relatively safe and put into the air we breath and water we drink. If it was just co2 coming out of a coal plant we'd probably figure out a cool use for it but there's a lot more junk coming out.

Co2, ok its naturally occurring and it seems to spike all on its own even without human influence. So what happens when it spikes naturally and we've already spiked it?

What about the other crap we're burning and breathing right along with the coal?

I could care less what lead mercury and arsenic do to climate change I know what they do to humans. Are you seriously saying that because they don't impact climate change that they have no other effects? Read up on that sh!t...

Also the crude we get out of the ground has to be refined which has its own by-products. Some oil comes from oil sands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_sands) in Canada and Venezuela. Which is highly controversial as it costs more to extract and has a heavy environmental impact. But hey its all good, we don't need other cleaner renewable sources of energy. I could use a 4th arm and a set of eyes on my ass just because it I might pay $20 more in yearly taxes...

taxes are just one thing on the table. I can't say they'll fix the problem or that its the best solution but its better than doing jack dick nothing and just getting sicker and sicker.

No I just said they probably have no impact on climate change. they probably arent good, and I dont doubt they have adverse affects on your health. Again I just dont think taxing companies is going to change a whole lot...which will then be passed down to the consumer, you and me. At least not initially. eventually I'm sure when enough people are out of jobs and demand goes down because people cant afford energy or gas then yeah we'll see a decrease in burned fossil fuels and so forth! Woo! lol

[Mark Dygert]

So whats plan B?

Since A(cap and trade?) isn't your cup of tea? Come up with something that works instead of killing what you think might not.

It's as if we pay enough in taxes already and its being sucked into a huge black hole (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FJIwg2jbUP4/SnbMGGHROLI/AAAAAAAABFE/yqfqy1M7gV4/s1600/ve-military-spending2.jpg) of mismanagement. If only there was a way to get that money back...

[Junkie_XL]

So whats plan B?

Since A(cap and trade?) isn't your cup of tea? Come up with something that works instead of killing what you think might not.

It's as if we pay enough in taxes already and its being sucked into a huge black hole (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FJIwg2jbUP4/SnbMGGHROLI/AAAAAAAABFE/yqfqy1M7gV4/s1600/ve-military-spending2.jpg) of mismanagement. If only there was a way to get that money back...

There only needs to be a plan B if you think CO2 is harmful. I don't think it is.

As for mercury and everything else, local state governments make sure that stuff isn't leaked into the water anyway.

btw I agree entirely with you on bringing the troops home around the world. Big waste to continue having troops sit around in Japan & Germany still with troops in 170 bases in all the other various countries too.

The only time the US military should be used is if Canada attacked Montana. Although I think with the high % of gun owners in that state I think they could take care of themselves...lol I envy countries like Switzerland. They mind their own friggin business and people are wealthier there because of it. Never attacked another country and never been attacked themselves if I recall.

[Mark Dygert]

There only needs to be a plan B if you think CO2 is harmful. I don't think it is. That's only the solution, if you think co2 is the cause of global warming.

If co2 isn't the cause you still have global warming to deal with. So far the leading theory is co2. If they're wrong then we need to figure out whats causing it.

But that's only if you think global warming is behind the ice melt. If global warming isn't behind the ice melt what is? The ice melt is well documented. If its natural and can't be stopped, we need to figure out what its going to do and work around it the best we can as soon as possible.

So if its not co2 and its not global warming whats causing the ice melt?

But you only believe the ice is melting if you choose to look at the well documented practical observations by many different sources.

As for mercury and everything else, local state governments make sure that stuff isn't leaked into the water anyway.
Thats the job of the EPA. They are charged to protect human health and the environment, by writing and enforcing regulations based on laws passed by Congress.

The problem is we're all raised to believe that one person will raise up in the 11th hour and save everyone with one grand gesture. Every movie and story pitched to western culture is that way. Someone will save us, but it won't be me so I don't have to do anything. We can't accept that making small changes over time can have the same effect.

[EricV]

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[Junkie_XL]

So if its not co2 and its not global warming whats causing the ice melt?

The natural warming and cooling periods the Earth has always gone through.

You're being really alarmist over this IMO. People are funny..."gotta do something now!" "gotta do something now!" "zomg look what our children are inheriting...etc."

I'm gonna go outside and breathe some fresh air. In 20,000 days from now when most of us are dead, things will still be the same.

List of glaciers growing...
http://www.iceagenow.com/List_of_Expanding_Glaciers.htm

[eld]

http://www.bradblog.com/Images/JoelPett_ClimateSummitHoaxForNothing_120709.jpg

[Junkie_XL]

http://www.bradblog.com/Images/JoelPett_ClimateSummitHoaxForNothing_120709.jpg

People seem to have this idea in their head that we'll all be living off the grid and independent in some sort of future utopia. I guarantee you that will never happen. The two most profitable industries in the world are energy and transportation and our masters will make sure it stays that way till you die.

As for green jobs...pffft. A job that requires taking more from people via taxes to be created isn't a job...that is called "expanding government".

anywho, yeah this topic has probably run its course.

[eld]

I dunno, it seems we're doing a pretty good job in scandinavia to keep things "green", only to be counterworked by all the bigger countries that spews out too much crap in the world.

I'm not looking for a world where everyone lives on planet full of blue people while sticking our tentacles into every animal there is, I'm just hoping every consumer in the world can stop being so goddamn lazy all the time, yes, you people, you know who you are.

We can still live normal lives.