UK urged to apologize to Alan Turing

[arshlevon]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8226509.stm



Programmer John Graham-Cumming has created a petition to the UK Prime Minister urging him to issue a posthumous apology to Alan Turing who in 1952 was criminally prosecuted for being gay, ending his career and leading to his suicide.



Turing was effectively the founder of modern computer science, and played a key role in breaking Nazi Germany’s ciphers during WW2 which historians believe may have shortened the war by as much as 2 years.



You have to be British to sign the petition, but expats can sign. There are 30,000 signatures so far.



http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/turing/

[ChrisG]

heard about this a couple days ago, its a terrible thing to happen to a great man, signed.

[Target_Renegade]

He was a genius who helped end the war, signed.

[rebb]

How does this help him now ?

[Mark Dygert]

I'm sure his headstone will be much relieved.

It actually helps keep it from happening to people in the future, something I'm sure he wouldn't wish on anyone.

[Ferg]

would sign it if I could, lets try not to be douche bags to eachother in the future eh world?

[[MILES]]

Just throwing this out there...

Whatever the case might be, what was done at that time was considered illegal at that time.

We have a highway that used to be 55mph. Now it is 70mph. If I got a ticket for traveling over 55mph when I was younger (knowing the law and its consequences), should a formal apology be issued me now that the limit has been increased to 70mph? Should tickets to all offenders be reimbursed, insurance companies made to relinquish profits from increased rates which resulted from the citations? Where does it end? And with what topic? Does it depend on a person's fame or contribution to society? Who is it really benefiting (Turing - deceased) or a movement? ...

[TheMadArtist]

^I think there's a itty bitty slight difference between what happened to him and a speeding ticket.

[arshlevon]

if because of your speeding you were banned from making any 3d computer art for the rest of your life, you committed suicide because you could not continue your lifes work, and you were one of the greatest artists in history, and the car you were driving in could not possibly go under 55 because naturally thats just how fast it would go...

then yes you would deserve an apology..


i will be the first


I'm sorry miles.. what happened to you was wrong..

[Calabi]

Well we should all be punished for slavery now according to some people.

[acc]

I'm not sure how "We're sorry you were treated unjustly by the government" equates to punishing people.

[Justin Meisse]

I see no reasonable reason why anyone would be against this

[Jeremy Wright]

The dude killed himself with a fucking poisoned apple. That is fucking wild. The story behind the Macintosh logo or coincidence. You be the judge.

[vik]

Oscar Wilde anyone?

[poopinmymouth]

;994188']Just throwing this out there...

Whatever the case might be, what was done at that time was considered illegal at that time.

We have a highway that used to be 55mph. Now it is 70mph. If I got a ticket for traveling over 55mph when I was younger (knowing the law and its consequences), should a formal apology be issued me now that the limit has been increased to 70mph? Should tickets to all offenders be reimbursed, insurance companies made to relinquish profits from increased rates which resulted from the citations? Where does it end? And with what topic? Does it depend on a person's fame or contribution to society? Who is it really benefiting (Turing - deceased) or a movement? ...

lol, this is the most horrible analogy I've ever heard. This isn't some arbitrary speed limit, it's a person's life.

I'll flat out say this, "If you don't see anything wrong with the situation, you are a horrible human being." Dude had his life ruined for being gay. That's like... oh I don't know, gassing people for being jewish. Much more similar to that than to fucking speed limit changes.

Man some people.

Oh look another one!

Well we should all be punished for slavery now according to some people.

If you think the affects of slavery are dead and gone, you're sorely mistaken, and also a horrible human being. No one wants anyone punished for slavery, they want to help remove the lasting effects that are still being felt in the population of black people in the western world.

What does this even have to do with the article? Are you suggesting that the government apologizing for this atrocious act is somehow someone getting punished? Instead of, you know, bigots apologizing for being bigots (posthumously). Governments can set tones, and until GLBT hate crimes are non existent in the UK, it can and will serve to rid the public from this bigoted viewpoint if their are laws and official policies in place that codify just how abhorrent this kind of behavior is.


*edit* I didn't even see this little *gem* at first:

;994188']Who is it really benefiting (Turing - deceased) or a movement? ...

What a fucking disgrace. "a movement" You sit in your little white christian bubble in the middle of bumfuck texas bible belt and have the nerve to belittle the rights of other human beings? Disgusting, and absolutely against everything that Jesus stood for, and if you were actually in touch with the message of the Bible, you'd understand that instead of being a judgmental tard-face.

Sit here and tell me in your own words what this "movement" is, and how they will benefit in your obviously nefarious scenario. OH NO, PEOPLE MIGHT GAIN EQUAL CIVIL RIGHTS, OH THE HORROR!!!!

[John Warner]

I'm a liiiiiittllleee bit with Miles on this one...

I will say this -- it will be nice for his family. for that, I'm cool with it. buuuuuttt:

the government in place does not represent the government that prosecuted him. both bodies are now dead. there is no real apology possible because both parties do not exist anymore. this is a platitude.

I want to be clear -- I"M NOT AGAINST THIS PETITION... but not necessarily for it.. it does raise some questions. it iiiiiissssssss a little bit emotional... and perhaps a bit of a platitude? a bit after the fact... the only meaning i can find is to clarify the current government's stance. what are they going to say??

"yes, homosexuals are human beings, equal to everyone else. What happened to John Graham-Cumming was horrific and the British government would like to issue a full apology to John Graham-Cumming and his family, and we'd like to publicly state that this sort of prosecution for one's sexual orientation will never happen again."

The only reason that that could have any significance to you is if you thought it was the same government. you want an apology from an unjust body to admit it's guilt and reform it's actions -- and that's fine! but the tragedy here is that the party that you're prosecuting might not have anything to do with the party at fault. sorta a straw-man situation, isn't it?

Poop -- i love you. I know where this is going though. lets put our gloves on yes? I'm going to say this pre-empitively.

if it's in your estimation that there is a lot of work that needs to be done yet on the governments part to clarify it's stance towards homosexuality as being just and equal... then so be it. if this is symbolic of change that NEEDS to happen.. then I'd sign it to.

it could be that living here in the gayest part of all of canada (literally... davie street, vancouver), which is already an accepting country, i just lose sight of possible bigotry that might exist? really-- is the british government homophobic still?

[poopinmymouth]

Or you know, they could do something symbolic that could further the rights culturally of one of their minorities that faces social persecution from the time their old enough to think critically till their deathbed. You know, the (current) government doing something to further the rights of their (current) citizens.

Just throwing that out there.

[John Warner]

hey! yes yes sorry, i just edited my post... the end bit there. if that's necessary then i'm all for it.

[metalliandy]

Signed.
Illegal or not this was a horrible thing to do and it wouldn't hurt the government to apologise, just as they have to all the victims of shell shock who were shot for cowardice.

Also, AFAIK any petition that receives over 10k signatures requires a formal response from the PM. :)

[Tyler]

I'm with poop on this one :P

While i appreciate what your saying about how it wont directly benefit Turing as he has long passed on, but i believe that if this secures freedom of ones natural self, whatever that might be (a disability, sexual preference, third arm..) from affecting their professional life, and indeed personal life. Then this is a much needed apology from the current government, which is still here to represent the previous government which set down these obseen set of rulings.

[poopinmymouth]

it could be that living here in the gayest part of all of canada (literally... davie street, vancouver), which is already an accepting country, i just lose sight of possible bigotry that might exist? really-- is the british government homophobic still?

It doesn't matter if the government is homophobic (it is, same sex marriage gets a different name, for no good reason other than to appease religious people who think they own the legal contract) the UK as a whole is still homophobic, so is Canada, and so is the US. One town of SF or Montreal or London doesn't fix the whole country. Yes a person can move there once they're 20 and if they have a skill that will support them in an expensive city, and they have the chutzpah to relocate and start over, but they all had to grow up in the middle of nowhere, and for every one of them, there are 10 more that can't move to NYC or Cologne, or Sydney, and have to face the bigotry of the smaller towns.

You honestly can't know what it's like without having experienced it. Just having to wonder if you can say "my husband" in casual conversation the same way any one of you wouldn't even think twice about dropping "my wife" without worrying what other people will think. And that's at the mild end, there are still people being shot, killed, or beaten up, sometimes even by the police. So yes, it's very very needed.

[killingpeople]

if not a deserved apology, at least making people aware of his injustice would be reason enough. i've never heard of the guy before now.

[[MILES]]

...wow, Ben. :(

[adamlewis]

;994188']Just throwing this out there...

Whatever the case might be, what was done at that time was considered illegal at that time.

We have a highway that used to be 55mph. Now it is 70mph. If I got a ticket for traveling over 55mph when I was younger (knowing the law and its consequences), should a formal apology be issued me now that the limit has been increased to 70mph? Should tickets to all offenders be reimbursed, insurance companies made to relinquish profits from increased rates which resulted from the citations? Where does it end? And with what topic? Does it depend on a person's fame or contribution to society? Who is it really benefiting (Turing - deceased) or a movement? ...

The important difference is that one law was based on a faulty understanding of highway safety, while the other was based on a faulty understanding of basic human morality. The intent of the two laws was also quite different; one was designed with the intent of minimizing traffic accidents, while the other was designed with the intent of persecuting a specific segment of the population. This is the distinction between a merely bad law, and an immoral one, and we need to be constantly vigilant about protecting ourselves and promoting awareness of the latter, so it doesn't happen again. Hence the need for symbolic apologies of this kind. It isn't just for show - it really matters.

[poopinmymouth]

The important difference is that one law was based on a faulty understanding of highway safety, while the other was based on a faulty understanding of basic human morality. The intent of the two laws was also quite different; one was designed with the intent of minimizing traffic accidents, while the other was designed with the intent of persecuting a specific segment of the population. This is the distinction between a merely bad law, and an immoral one, and we need to be constantly vigilant about protecting ourselves and promoting awareness of the latter, so it doesn't happen again. Hence the need for symbolic apologies of this kind. It isn't just for show - it really matters.

What he said. Sometimes it's hard to be eloquent when debating your own basic human rights from the people in privilege not understanding what the big deal is.

[Calabi]

Oh look another one!

Woah!, so you have me labelled from just that little statement, so what one am I?

As it happens I dont agree with the way he was treated and believe it was a tragedy. The same with slavery.

A little while ago the government was asked to apologise for slavery the same as this.

Apologising for these things now intonates some kind of guilt in the current population. Guilt is a form of self punishment. I have felt my own guilt with these things that were done, that how could I be part of this ugly population which did such horrible things, that I am responsible somehow.

But I am not. The people then were. It was not just the governments fault. Companies, persons, and everyone who turned a blind eye, at the time were responsible.

What the government could do is say they regret what happened in the past and are doing there best not to repeat, and learn from it, but they cannot apologise because those that are responsible are not here to do so.

And anyway an apology would just be part of those political games politicians like to play, appear to be full of humility and say what the public want whilst not giving a damn(especially this government).

[poopinmymouth]

And anyway an apology would just be part of those political games politicians like to play, appear to be full of humility and say what the public want whilst not giving a damn(especially this government).

At least we can all agree on this. However it can and would have beneficial side affects despite their (slimy) intentions.

You can't just label slavery as gone because the people who literally owned slaves are dead, and no one is literally a slave now. The entire system in the US and the UK is designed from top to bottom to benefit the white heterosexual male, and to imply that either country is a meritocracy and should move on from any kind of reparations is laughably naive.

Woah!, so you have me labelled from just that little statement, so what one am I?



Judging from your comment, you're white, male, from a family living above the poverty line, and you feel somehow that reparations aren't needed and that everything is a level playing ground, and that black people should just move on. I'll also go out on a limb and say you've never faced a day of persecution or obstacles because of how you were born.


Apologising for these things now intonates some kind of guilt in the current population. Guilt is a form of self punishment. I have felt my own guilt with these things that were done, that how could I be part of this ugly population which did such horrible things, that I am responsible somehow.


Do you think that the people who were alive and in charge during slavery were somehow radically different people than the current population? I'll give you a hint, the answer is no. Everyone alive has the same evil inside them that let the Nazi's dehuminize the Jews, white's to own slaves, Americans to jail their own population at the same percentage of the gulags of USSR, while destroying the lives and countries of the middle-east. All it takes is for a group to be convinced there is an "other" that is somehow inferior to "us". And by trying to say that the affects of slavery are long gone and that no reparations are needed, is falling into the exact same pattern that allowed these past evils.

Can I have a nickel for every time Poop has called someone a terrible human being in the last week?

I thought Europeans were supposed to be all nice and cheery. Must be all that pot they smoke.
(http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=65558)

What can I say? the internet is full of a lot of awful human beings. And I'm an American, so I'm allowed to be filled with spite for my fellow man. It's the American way.

[Slum]

Can I have a nickel for every time Poop has called someone a terrible human being in the last week?

I thought Europeans were supposed to be all nice and cheery. Must be all that pot they smoke.
(http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=65558)

[aesir]

I agree that you can't apologize for something that you weren't responsible for. Either it's just a false statement, or you're saying 'i'm sorry for you.'

You can, of course work to help people who are currently persecuted.

[Marine]

this thread is going to get locked...

[Ferg]

Just so we're all on the same page here, the current government does have to deal with messes made by previous administrations, even if those messes are many decades old. You don't just wipe the slate clean when Mr New President Johnson is sworn in. A government having to apologize for the actions of its predecessors isn't the same as a person having to do so.

[arshlevon]

POOP! chill out..

i made this thread as a heads up to anyone in the UK to the issue as they can do something about it.. personally i would just love to see Alan Turing in the history books for the hero that he was and his contributions well known, not someone swept under the rug because he was gay, or because the UK is ashamed of its past behavior and hopes it all blows over.. i did not mean for it to be a huge discussion on equal rights..

i know you have personal feelings attached to the issue Ben, but calling people horrible human beings is not only false, but doesn't help your cause one bit.. i don't believe anyone who disagrees with this is a horrible human human being.. maybe uneducated, maybe separated from gay issues, maybe they have no gay friends, or maybe they don't care.. in my book it doesn't make them bad people.. just uninformed or unexposed to the issue. if you really want people to see your point of view it helps to not insult them, if you refuse to see things other than the one way you have decided is the ultimate perfect way you do nothing whatsoever so solve the problem and only give fuel to the other side..

i mean look at me, i was raised in the south and poops one of my best friends....

there is hope for anyone

[Calabi]

Judging from your comment, you're white, male, from a family living above the poverty line, and you feel somehow that reparations aren't needed and that everything is a level playing ground, and that black people should just move on. I'll also go out on a limb and say you've never faced a day of persecution or obstacles because of how you were born.:poly121:I am almost the literal opposite of that. I personally at the moment am below the poverty line and have never been particularly far above that line. I also have been persecuted quite a lot for my imperfections, and all I seem to have is obstacles.

I do not know what the black people should do its up to them. Maybe they should punch those they feel wronged from.

Do you think that the people who were alive and in charge during slavery were somehow radically different people than the current population? I'll give you a hint, the answer is no. Everyone alive has the same evil inside them that let the Nazi's dehuminize the Jews, white's to own slaves, Americans to jail their own population at the same percentage of the gulags of USSR, while destroying the lives and countries of the middle-east. All it takes is for a group to be convinced there is an "other" that is somehow inferior to "us". And by trying to say that the affects of slavery are long gone and that no reparations are needed, is falling into the exact same pattern that allowed these past evils.Your right exactly, you cannot tell people not to be racist or homophobic, they will think what they think. What you can do though is make it socially unnacceptable(or illegal) to express their feelings outwardly.

What sort of reparations are acceptable though?

[DKK]

Isn't it a little bit hypocritical to classify all straight white males simply by the fact that they are straight white males? I'm a straight white male, and I also live in Vancouver, On Davie street, Ive had 3 gay teachers, gay friends, and gay family friends, I take no issue with gay people, It hurts to be descriminated against because of the colour of your skin, your sexuality, and your financial status all at the same time. Especially by someone you respect.

[Junkie_XL]

Everyone alive has the same evil inside them...

wow

[ChrisG]

what the fuck has this thread turned into? A man was bullied and made to feel so ashamed of who he is that he killed himself, let me repeat KILLED HIMSELF. NOONE here can ever equate to what this man must have felt like minutes before he died. People who say this petition is pointless really should keep their mouth shut- just because a it was illegal didnt make it right to be humiliated by the country he gave his life to.

Plus people who say that the current government shouldnt have to apologize becasue it wasnt them need to understand its not about that, its about getting recognition for a terrible event which I bet noone here knew about before this thread.

[danr]

apologise to Oscar Wilde too, while you're about it. And everyone else who's life was never the same after being convicted for being gay.

all in, or none.

[ChrisG]

wow

you took that way out of context, he was refering to the fact anyone could become an evil person, not all people are evil.

[Gav]

i really want to avoid this thread BUT if you haven't watched this before...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS8T9aNnwDo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Llwgw4-kk&feature=related

[Junkie_XL]

you took that way out of context, he was refering to the fact anyone could become an evil person, not all people are evil.

So just because all people have the "potential to be evil" means they should be forced to pay reparations for something they took no part in?

[Cojax]

And by trying to say that the affects of slavery are long gone and that no reparations are needed, is falling into the exact same pattern that allowed these past evils.


This shit has derailed.

[Paul Pepera]

this thread is going to get locked...

The sooner, the better...

[ChrisG]

So just because all people have the "potential to be evil" means they should be forced to pay reparations for something they took no part in?

no, read my post- people should be aware of what happened (and how far we have come in comparison to the 1950's) as i bet noone here knew what happened to him.

[danr]

i bet noone here knew what happened to him.

er ... how much?

[Jesse Moody]

Ok lets get back on the subject that was originally posted by Arsh. This is getting on a whole other train and it's gonna get locked.

There are a great many wrongs that have been committed throughout history and everyone has their views and opinions and it's great that we can state them here and argue about them and what not but that wasn't the point of this thread.

The point was to show that hey some people want to make a difference for this one man and his family (if he has any left) to say hey we were wrong and you were a very important person in our history.

Don't let this turn into a talk about slavery and all the other stuff and become a huge fight and make us lock this thread.

Now play nice.

[ChrisG]

so about god

[oobersli]

/gay rage off

/talk peacefully on


shitty thing. would've been interesting to see how technology would have turned out if he would still be around.

[Sandbag]

suicide doesn't make someone a martyr, it makes them a coward.

Did Rosa Parks commit suicide when she was persecuted? How does giving up help anyone else that has been through the same persecution? It only helps yourself escape it.

I feel for anyone that has been shit on, but really, how many people havent? To say that "my discrimination matters more than yours!!" Is terrible ignorance. Saying that no one else has been shit on like you have or that no one will ever understand you because you had it 'hard' just makes you a crybaby.

Grow up and realize that more than gay and black people have see discrimination and hard times.

[Marine]

Turing was a coward?
Using your Rosa Parks example, it would be like bleaching her skin and telling her being black is an illness. Is she still a coward when she's had enough of that?

[ChrisG]

suicide doesn't make someone a martyr, it makes them a coward.

Did Rosa Parks commit suicide when she was persecuted? How does giving up help anyone else that has been through the same persecution? It only helps yourself escape it.

I feel for anyone that has been shit on, but really, how many people havent? To say that "my discrimination matters more than yours!!" Is terrible ignorance. Saying that no one else has been shit on like you have or that no one will ever understand you because you had it 'hard' just makes you a crybaby.

Grow up and realize that more than gay and black people have see discrimination and hard times.


so in your eyes me discriminating you by buying everyone else a coke and not you because of your hair length is exactly the same as being bullied into taking your own life because of your sexuality?

[adam]

While this thread started off awesome and informative, its quickly become a loaded topic.

With that said, everyone's responses have been interesting and this thread is still pretty well positively charged. However if you want to continue posting in this thread, and Polycount in general, read on.

If I can make one request, one that if isn't followed I will ask the mod's to close the thread, is that we keep the prejudice replies out of this thread. There's no sense in guessing one personal specifics (location, race, religious beliefs, sexual preference and so on) when whats in question is their opinion on the subject matter. If the replies are within context of the opinion and the topic at hand, thats fine, but we're not here to have an open discussion about our members' personal specifics and whether or not its effecting their judgment. Especially when its done so in a belittling undertone.

So please, keep it civil*


*Famous last words.

[Kevin Johnstone]

signed.

[Sandbag]

so in your eyes me discriminating you by buying everyone else a coke and not you because of your hair length is exactly the same as being bullied into taking your own life because of your sexuality?


If you dont follow than it's likely you're fortunate enough to have not been discriminated against or have experienced hardship to any serious degree so far in your life. You know as well as anyone else that not getting a soda based on hair length is a ridiculous comparison.

Of course, ironically I have been harassed quite a bit for having long hair, it was (back in high school) usually to the tune of handcuffed and background checked for no reason while "loitering," being accused of smoking pot or being a pot head (which I've never used or been fond of), etc.

But that's nothing in the big scheme of things either; I'm almost sorry that the only prejudice you've seen has been racial and sexually charged, it usually ends up making for a stronger person to have to go through or even witness more.

[ChrisG]

SandBag when you said that discrimination is all the same (my discrimination matters more than yours!!" Is terrible ignorance) you must realise there is a difference to being harassed over long hair and getting to the point in life where you dont care wheather you live nor die.
Now I had long hair for a very long time and I got shouts and things thrown at me (occasionally spat at) and was shoved about but I was the bigger man about it and shot them (Im joking about the last part).

For him to kill himself for being ashamed of who he is makes my "discrimination" pale in comparision

[MoP]

It is a worthy petition. Turing was a great man.

[Sandbag]

I acknowledged the difference, expressly. I dont think it's appropriate to get into some kind of sick pissing contest over terrible things that have happened to me vs others, but I expressly said that such things pale in comparison to greater transgressions that happen to more than just gay and black people.

I think it's very narrow sighted and very egocentric to think otherwise. Every kind of person can experience persecution and it does not take suicide to highlight that fact.

Tto me suicide is giving up, plain and simple, and I dont think giving up should be respected. The people that are left behind when someone commits suicide often go through as much grief or more than that single person did. When they call it quits it's over for them, but the people that love and care about them live on with the grief that it causes forever.

[John Warner]

Yeah, alright Poop, You sold me. I'm down.

But i still love Miles. Kisses!!

[ChrisG]

Tto me suicide is giving up, plain and simple, and I dont think giving up should be respected. The people that are left behind when someone commits suicide often go through as much grief or more than that single person did. When they call it quits it's over for them, but the people that love and care about them live on with the grief that it causes forever.

Until your in a position when you want to kill your self, never EVER say suicide is giving up. I knew of a kid who committed suicide after being bullied at school, would tell his parents he gave up and he shouldn't be respected?

[Jesse Moody]

chrizz1 and sandbag, would you guys mind continuing this off-topic chatter (thats really now happening amongst the 2 of you) to IM's.

Actually, it doesn't matter if you mind. If either of you continue the discussion here in this thread will step over the Warnings and dish out a couple infractions. And if it happens after that, we'll have to give you both 5 day vacations.

[Segreto]

Alan Turing was given experimental chemical castration as a "treatment" and his security privileges were removed, meaning he could not continue work for the UK Government Communications Headquarters

Turing was given a choice between imprisonment or probation conditional on his agreement to undergo hormonal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone) treatment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration) designed to reduce libido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libido). He accepted chemical castration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration) via oestrogen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrogen) hormone injections,[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing#cite_note-32) which lasted for a year. One of the known side effects of these hormone injections was the development of breasts, known as gynecomastia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynecomastia), something which plagued Turing for the rest of his life.

That reallly sucks.. imagine helping to save your country from Nazi Germany and your own government awards you by giving you breasts.. goddamn.

Here's hoping this goes through so that this kind of thing doesn't happen again.

[crazyfingers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY

We're gonna pay hard for this shit guys... but for now weeeeeee!

Seriously though, I'm of the belief that poverty is all a state of mind (been there). I understand that in order to succeed, you need to beleive you can. A lot of minority groups were deprived this for a long time, but seriously, it's time to get beyond this BS, there's other shit to worry about right now. One of the things grabbing this country by the balls is that we're too worried about who a person is, whether they're gay, straight, black, or white, republican (EVIL), democrat (that's cool). We're all biased to some degree and we're so wrapped up in labeling people that everything's falling apart as we can tell looking at this thread.

In the end who cares, feeling bad for yourself isn't going to help you make it. Grit your teeth, work your ass off, and maybe, just maybe, you can pull ahead of the black lesbain women who have been dominating this game art field for so long. Just kidding.

P.S.
http://www.comedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?title=more-reparations&videoId=24407

[ScoobyDoofus]

Whats funny is I knew about Turing. I knew who he was and what he contributed to computing science.

I did not, until this thread, know that he was gay, or that he was persecuted, or that he committed suicide. I just saw him as another important Comp Scientist reverently referenced in the technical stuff I so often read.

[poopinmymouth]

POOP! chill out..

i made this thread as a heads up to anyone in the UK to the issue as they can do something about it.. personally i would just love to see Alan Turing in the history books for the hero that he was and his contributions well known, not someone swept under the rug because he was gay, or because the UK is ashamed of its past behavior and hopes it all blows over.. i did not mean for it to be a huge discussion on equal rights..

i know you have personal feelings attached to the issue Ben, but calling people horrible human beings is not only false, but doesn't help your cause one bit.. i don't believe anyone who disagrees with this is a horrible human human being.. maybe uneducated, maybe separated from gay issues, maybe they have no gay friends, or maybe they don't care.. in my book it doesn't make them bad people.. just uninformed or unexposed to the issue. if you really want people to see your point of view it helps to not insult them, if you refuse to see things other than the one way you have decided is the ultimate perfect way you do nothing whatsoever so solve the problem and only give fuel to the other side..

i mean look at me, i was raised in the south and poops one of my best friends....

there is hope for anyone

Sorry, this isn't a discussion over who likes ice cream and what flavor is best. It's a discussion that covers human lives. As has been pointed out in the thread, the guy underwent chemical castration after doing possibly the most that a single person did to end the war, and was so utterly destroyed he commited suicide.

People who deny equal human rights to one another *are* horrible human beings. I am not going to use silk gloves and calmly explain to someone why it's not ok to own human slaves, rape a child, or any other type of despicable behavior, and I'm not morally required to either. This kind of shit should be mocked and the people holding these views ostracized till they either drop it, or relegate themselves to some backwater town with no influence to stew in their own juices.

It's not even about an "ultimate perfect view" it's about making damn sure that people's lives aren't ruined by society's prejudices, which is exactly what happend to Turing, and there is literally zero room for argument. No one is debating the finer points of what this potential apology will cause, they're basically whining about a situation they don't want to be confronted with because it makes them uncomfortable. Tough shit.

In my book it does make them bad people. Who's book is more relevant? The guy who doesn't understand anything about the situation and won't be affected in any way whether they apologize or not, or the person who has literally lived through a small iota of what Turing did?

*calmchat*
The way history looks back on certain people can dictate current and future tone towards not only that person, but people from the same demographic as them. A good example relevant to this story is Claus Stauffenberg (the german that Valkyrie was based off of). The way he is remembered in history has an affect on how many people think of Germans. If you make sure that history books are accurate, and public opinion informed about what went on, it can serve as an inspiration and cultural weathervane for the future.

There are certainly few enough gay icons to look up to as what you can aspire to become, and by making a narrative that celebrates Turing as not only a hero, but someone who was wrongly persecuted by the British government, it can give gay youth in the UK and the rest of the world a positive role model to look to and emulate.

[killingpeople]

by weathervane, you mean weathercock, right? good post.

[adam]

First off..

You sit in your little white christian bubble in the middle of bumfuck texas bible belt and have the nerve to belittle the rights of other human beings?

...which leads us to...

Judging from your comment, you're white, male, from a family living above the poverty line, and you feel somehow that reparations aren't needed and that everything is a level playing ground, and that black people should just move on. I'll also go out on a limb and say you've never faced a day of persecution or obstacles because of how you were born.

...and finally:

it's about making damn sure that people's lives aren't ruined by society's prejudices

I know you're pissed off, but I really hope you see my point.

[poopinmymouth]

Not really. I don't see my remarks as comparable to how society treats gay people, in the past and the present. It's a pretty crappy comparison actually. I'll tone down the direct insults though.

I'm not pissed off, I'm just tired of stuff like this getting to fly without being challenged. Especially in the games industry.

[adam]

*whoooooooooosh*, There goes my point. Right over your head.

It's hard to read someone speak so passionately about bigotry and prejudice remarks when they themselves are being prejudice. I was going to post this earlier based on some of your replies in this thread (and another, I believe) but it was reading you speak about prejudice behaviour that had me finally do it.

I want you to continue with writing about how you're feeling. But when you're contradicting your feelings against your choice of expression, its hard to follow.

[poopinmymouth]

Um, no, I got it entirely, it wasn't exactly subtle. Quote three of my posts that are supposed to somehow be contradictory or ironic in context.

So, just to completely lay it out for you:

Chemically castrating and destroying the career of a genius war hero because he's gay? Prejudice.

Mocking A) a white christian male who lives in texas for calling equal human rights "a movement" and B) a white guy for not understanding the issues of slavery. Not prejudice. Possibly douchey, but not prejudiced.

Now tell me how they are similar.

[adam]

I say they are. Difference of opinion? I'm down with that.

Carry on, but please be nice.

[ChrisG]

chrizz1 and sandbag, would you guys mind continuing this off-topic chatter (thats really now happening amongst the 2 of you) to IM's.

Actually, it doesn't matter if you mind. If either of you continue the discussion here in this thread will step over the Warnings and dish out a couple infractions. And if it happens after that, we'll have to give you both 5 day vacations.

your the boss

[Jonathan]

This is so pointless. He made his decisions in life, and he chose to do that which was illegal. He actions after that were his own choosing as well. He is now dead, and now a movement is trying to forcefully regurgitate this for their own purposes.

People commit suicide for a laundry-list of reasons, none of them which are valid. I have a relative of mine that committed suicide, because he thought it was the only way out, though it truly was not the only way out.

[Rick Stirling]

Jonathan - I'm pretty sure that you don't choose to be gay.

[Jonathan]

Jonathan - I'm pretty sure that you don't choose to be gay.

That is fine if you believe that, but I disagree, and believe it is a choice. Some people may be more prone to it, but it is still a choice. Please no flames here people, just stating what I believe.

[poopinmymouth]

That is fine if you believe that, but I disagree, and believe it is a choice. Some people may be more prone to it, but it is still a choice. Please no flames here people, just stating what I believe.

That's fine if you believe this, but other people will know you're a bigot. You may not like that label, but it was your choice to become a bigot.

Just stating what I believe.

[Lamont]

who in 1952 was criminally prosecuted for being gayIf I was resident I'd sign it.

----------------

Imagine you're Christian in a time where being so wasn't such a good idea. There is nothing wrong with your faith, but for some reason there is a law against it. You believe with all your heart in your faith, but live in fear that one day something will happen to you because of it. So you hide it from friends and family because they might out you. You love the work you do as a geneticist, you love the fact that one day it will help millions of people the world over.

So during the course of your double-life you created the cure for I dunno... AIDS, Cancer and Downs Syndrome. The freakin' world believes you to be a hero. Then, some asshole posts in the paper "So-And-So is Christian!!". Bam!! Police show up and take you away.

You do not hide the fact that you are Christian. You are proud of it. There is nothing morally, or socially wrong with it. The people that have the problem are the "closed-minded" individuals in power with their archaic and draconian ways. You believe that because you saved countless of lives, and you are a genuinely kind-hearted person, they will come to reason and the whole debacle will be over in a day or so. You can go home and pray with your family in peace. Take them to church on Sunday and be happy.

This is not the case. Your family is scared they will never see their dad again. All the work you have done is stripped away and your name is synonymous with shit. Who cares what you did for their wives, daughters, sons, fathers and brothers. We care about who you are, and that crazy thing you do on Sunday called "worshiping". Guilty of being Christian. Two choices lay in front of you: Convert to Flying-Spaghettism or go to jail for the rest of you life. You choose your freedom, so you worship the Spaghetti Monster. You can't find work doing what you love. You become depressed. You can't be who you are without some kind of retaliation or threat of death. Why is there a reason to live?

So you kill yourself way ahead of your time. A Genius that could have a lot more to give and could have changed the world even more.

60 years later the government says "Wow. We did fuck up.". It's not for that person, it's for the family, the descendants, other Christians and rights of anyone of any faith the world over.

----------------

Sorry that was long but... history is riddled with similar stories. I only hope it makes sense.

@Reparations - It makes me laugh. Really hard. That's another topic on another day.

[Jonathan]

People may think that, but I'm not hating anyone. If anything, I think it's been shown quite a bit that those who label people bigots most often are they themselves bigots.

[poopinmymouth]

I think you got that wrong, You might be confusing for the study that shows the more homophobic a person is, the more likely they are to have same-sex attractions.

[TheMadArtist]

This thread isn't locked yet?

[Jonathan]

No Ben, and that's just a red herring.

[MightyPea]

I think gays totally choose to be gay. I bet that --secretly-- they totally dig guys, so in order to have sex with them they choose to be gay.

Don't mind ben, he's just angry that you found out his secret.

[ChrisG]

People can we drop it? this man was punished for something he couldnt help and fuck sake of course people cant just swap sexuality, i cant suddenly start getting boners over men just because I want to. It is totally unfair to judge this man and its a disgrace that the thread has got like this, we owe this man a huge amount for what he has done lets not forget that fact.

[crazyfingers]

If this thread were soap, and i were in prison, i would still drop it, that's how over this thread I am.

[Spark]

Wow this thread has turned from what it set out to intitially bring to light about a petition for a great man, into a thread of how many people Poopinmymouth can hate:P Ben, I realize you are pationate about your beliefs as are many of us on polycount. But do we really need to belittle and bash others for there beliefs? This is a modeling forum for gods sake!:), I am a US citizen ( yes ben I suck:P..long live USA!!! ) but if I was able to I would sign the petition.

Spark

[Kevin Johnstone]

Ben: It's great to have you back in the forum, but now that you've discovered a place to feel more at ease, you can't just come back and tell everyone else that they need to suddenly come to the same level of understanding about the subject of homosexuality as you have.

You'll damage yourself. Try to remember that the strongest person in the room is often the quietest, being right doesn't change anything, and brow beating morons to change their opinions only reinforces their belief in them.

Knowing a truth is a great freedom, shouting it out at the world only transforms us into the role of the fool from the parable of the Emperor's New Clothes.

I try to remember that this is an art forum, ie we are all social retards... all of us. We do better here when we're all talking about things we grouply understand and are interested in that relate to the art and the things that inspire us to make it.

[Calabi]

Um, no, I got it entirely, it wasn't exactly subtle. Quote three of my posts that are supposed to somehow be contradictory or ironic in context.

So, just to completely lay it out for you:

Chemically castrating and destroying the career of a genius war hero because he's gay? Prejudice.

Mocking A) a white christian male who lives in texas for calling equal human rights "a movement" and B) a white guy for not understanding the issues of slavery. Not prejudice. Possibly douchey, but not prejudiced.

Now tell me how they are similar.

I cannot understand how you can take any previous statements to mean that. I understand perfectly these things. Just because they are against these actions now does not mean they are prejudiced against those groups(or a douche).

Whilst these actions in the past were extremely horrible(to say the least) we just cannot make up for them, its too late. The past is gone, done is done. Those responsible and their victims are gone. What matters now is people's actions towards those people's now.

[Peris]

That is fine if you believe that, but I disagree, and believe it is a choice. Some people may be more prone to it, but it is still a choice. Please no flames here people, just stating what I believe.

what the hell? So did you choose to be attracted to women? Was that your decision? I know quite a few gay people and they definitely couldn't help it, it's just what they are.

Could you choose to be gay if being attracted to women was illegal suddenly?

[metalliandy]

yea this should be locked...
The petition has been vastly overshadowed by various opposing arguments and has now been transformed into this ultimately fruitless flame war.

Come on guys...we are better than this BS.
People are what they are and the best of luck to everyone.

[Mark Dygert]

I also think danr is right (8 pages ago), apologize to everyone that was wronged under the law while it was still around. One of the side effects of working in government is that you speak for the government, not only in the present but also in the past and future. It's not always about getting your moat cleaned or cheating on your mistress.

I think a lot of people have already honored his legacy and career in a lot of ways that have been highly successful. I think his scientific contributions far outweigh his death and his death outweighs future contributions that will go unmade. Tragic yes, but we should be thankful for what he was able to give us. If sense can be given to his senseless death then maybe that isn't a bad thing. Maybe he would like that?

Maybe if he wasn't pushed over the edge, a bunch of gay hating bigots could have summer condo's on the moon? But no they had to go and pick on the gay guy and give him tits.

Why don't I have a jet pack? Where is my flying car? I think reparations need to be made to me for all the advancements I've missed out on because of their costly mistake.

Personally I think paid reparations are BS. Apologies on the other hand, cost nothing but are worth so much.

[poopinmymouth]

It's really easy for people to discuss this as some kind of ephemeral thing that can be debated calmly, and everyone can have their opinion, and none are better than the other, and all agree to disagree, blah blah. Really easy if you don't suffer under the current system that is.

I'm an American citizen. I'm legally married in the eyes of Iceland, Canada, Germany, Sweden, on and on, but NOT the country of my birth. And since my husband is not a US citizen, and the US has the Defense of Marriage act, I cannot come to the country of my birth to live and work unless I do so alone with an ocean separating me and my loved one.

That fucking sucks, and it's not something where there are nuances that need to be considered. Descrimination is wrong, there is no room for debate, sorry. It will cause some upset, but it really doesn't matter. We're not debating people's comfort level on the internet of being confronted with things that they find offensive, we're discussing children's ability to grow up to the best of their abilities, for adults to live with their loved ones in their home country, and for the elderly to make life choices for their life-long spouse and leave them their worldly posessions and with custody of their children.

So yes. We do need to belittle and bash people who believe that being gay is a choice and that it is ok to descriminate based on sexual orientation. These people are bigots, and it doesn't matter if that makes anyone uncomfortable, because they need to be made uncomfortable until the situation doesn't exist anymore.

You can label me as full of hate for America, and you can wonder why I won't just pipe down and be quiet as things slowly inch forward a millimeter at a time, but it's really easy to do in your positions, and you'll have to forgive me if I completely ignore your advice, even though I know it's well intentioned.

And to bring it back to the original article: Descrimination based on sexuality still occurs in the UK both at the legal and cultural level, and by issuing a public apology, it will have some small affect on both. No one honestly thinks that Turing himself needs or would benefit from this, it's symbolic, just like offering tax breaks for bicyclists or correcting misinformation in history books.

[ChrisG]

Ben I do really feel for you and your partner, we live in a very unjust world.

[Mark Dygert]

I'm an American citizen. I'm legally married in the eyes of Iceland, Canada, Germany, Sweden, on and on, but NOT the country of my birth. And since my husband is not a US citizen, and the US has the Defense of Marriage act, I cannot come to the country of my birth to live and work unless I do so alone with an ocean separating me and my loved one.

That fucking sucks, and it's not something where there are nuances that need to be considered.

Wait hold on DOMA keeps your husband out of the US? How? Or is it because he doesn't have the required visa? That's not really DOMA's fault and while I agree that DOMA was a big pile of crap, it basically left it up to the states to decide. The US is still divided on the issue to the point that the federal government can't force all states to go along one way or the other. It certainly does NOT keep people from entering the country based on sexual orientation.

It was pretty much the green light to pursue it on the state level. Ever since then the push has been on state governments to recognize same sex couples.

In 2007, the Washington State Legislature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Legislature) passed S5336, creating domestic partnership in Washington (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership_in_Washington). Which is a huge step forward. A bunch of other states have made progress also.

You may hate how slow the process is going but lets not be retarded and not recognize the progress that's been made just because it isn't happening overnight with the snap of your fingers. Forcing people to change against their will is just as bad. You might have been out of touch on the local level since you've been out of the country but honestly there are some good things happening in a lot of places.

[pestibug]

Since I'm not from the UK I can only express my support for this petition. May many sign it and show that things can change over time. *signed*

[poopinmymouth]

The Defense of Marriage Act prevents states from extending Federal benefits to same sex spouses. This includes foreigner visas. If I married a female Icelander in Iceland, she could come live and work in the US with me. Even if I move to Massachussetts, Agust cannot legally live and work there. He could come for 3 months, not work, and then would have to leave. And no state can change that till DoMA is repealed.

Trust me, I'm informed on this issue.

And no, forcing people to change is not just as bad. That's what the supreme court did with desegregation. You don't make people suffer for real, so that bigots and religious zealots don't get their feelings hurt. Despite what the Supreme court currently thinks about it, the constitution and bill of rights supports equal rights for same sex partners, and it needs to be ruled on yesterday accordingly.

I'm putting myself out there and making this personal in the hopes that people have to be confronted with the affects that forcing their beliefs actually have on other people. Your stupid petty beliefs have no basis in the rule of law, and I won't give even an iota of credence or weight to how you feel about it, because you're unequivacably wrong in every way.

[Junkie_XL]

This is so pointless. He made his decisions in life, and he chose to do that which was illegal. He actions after that were his own choosing as well. He is now dead, and now a movement is trying to forcefully regurgitate this for their own purposes.

I am opposed to entitlements in the form of taking from someone to give to someone else if those alive today had nothing to do with the past.

But there are three basic entitlements all humans deserve. People have a right to their life, their liberty, and their pursuit of happiness. Unless someone is physically denying another individual of those basic rights, they can engage in any life style they wish. Whether being gay or not is a choice is irrelevant.

It is hypocritical to be a defender of freedom and the constitution while wanting to limit someone elses freedoms. A more noble cause for conservatives would be to pursue getting the state out of marriage altogether. Including heterosexual marriages and turn marriage back into strictly a religious institution. The only reason the state got involved was for health insurance reasons.

If marriage was strictly a religious function, then you as an individual can choose to be a part of whatever church you want. If homosexual marriages are being done at your church. Then just move to another church if you disagree.

I agree with conservatives when it comes to less government = better. That democracy is wrong and we should be a republic again. But it always amazes me how conservatives want these things while wanting more government intrusion in the bedroom.

[Steviant]

I watched Milk the other day. Opened my eyes a little bit.

TBH I believe in live-and-let-live, if it isn't directly harming or hurting anyone that isn't involved (and no, "those faggots are against god/are degenerate animals/eat children" doesn't really count).

The main thing isn't whether the apology should be issued, or what the politicians will gain from doing so or not doing so, or whether it's even the goverments position to do so in the first place. The main thing is to remind people that this happened, and to make sure that it will never happen again.

Sticky issue, really.

[danshewan]

I think the saddest thing about this whole issue is that, if Brown does make a formal apology on behalf of the government, is the assumption that it will inspire British (and other) people to accept others, strive to be better people and to live more tolerant lives.

Unfortunately, this (important) issue will slide neatly off the collective conscience of most British people, end up as a sidebar on the BBC's news site and things will continue their decline like they have with everything else in the UK. It's not just homophobia that's a problem here - there's no decency, no consideration and, probably most importantly, no law and no justice.

Brown's total lack of professional credibility makes it even harder to imagine that this (if it even goes ahead) will achieve much, despite the issue's importance. A real shame.

Signed.

[Mark Dygert]

The Defense of Marriage Act prevents states from extending Federal benefits to same sex spouses. This includes foreigner visas. If I married a female Icelander in Iceland, she could come live and work in the US with me. Even if I move to Massachussetts, Agust cannot legally live and work there. He could come for 3 months, not work, and then would have to leave. And no state can change that till DoMA is repealed.

Trust me, I'm informed on this issue. This I'll go along with, hopefully there are other loop holes that can be found if you guys really want to come to the US. Now might not be the right time, but hopefully in the near future he will be able to enter the way you want. Honestly I wouldn't move to the US if I was in your situation based on pure economics. The US is long from pulling out of the rescission.


And no, forcing people to change is not just as bad. That's what the supreme court did with desegregation. You don't make people suffer for real, so that bigots and religious zealots don't get their feelings hurt. Despite what the Supreme court currently thinks about it, the constitution and bill of rights supports equal rights for same sex partners, and it needs to be ruled on yesterday accordingly.

The forced change you talk about was the will of the many being forced on the few. Which like it or hate it is how government works. It might not always move in your direction but that's how it moves.

Right now the majority of the US is opposed to same sex marriage. If you want the will of the people to be carried out it would be an all out ban. Instead we have little pockets of hope here and there. It would be awesome if it happened over night but its not going to.

You change the laws by changing the people.
You don't change people by changing the laws.
Change the laws without changing the people just forces the discrimination underground.
You don't change people by shouting them down.

I believe in what you're standing for, I just don't think change happens over night. I also think the more you get in someones face about an issue the more entrenched that person will become. Rail all you want just know that it might do more harm than good.

[Sandbag]

I'm confused...What is stopping your husband from getting a job and his own visa Ben? As far as I know they dont ask your sexual orientation upon entering the country or applying for a visa.

I understand that getting a work visa isn't the easiest task (for anyone, regardless of sexual orientation) but it's certainly possible as many people seem to have success with it.

If you say you cant go back unless they recognize your marriage then what about states that allow gay marriage? Do you simply have to renew your marriage license stateside? Forgive me for not knowing the finer details, but am I to believe that the gay-marriage-welcome states allow "title only" marriage, with no benefit sharing? (not sure what the point is then?)

Would a suitable alternative be to both have jobs that provide the benefits you require while peacefully and proactively working to make life better for homosexuals in the US?

[poopinmymouth]

This I'll go along with, hopefully there are other loop holes that can be found if you guys really want to come to the US. Now might not be the right time, but hopefully in the near future he will be able to enter the way you want. Honestly I wouldn't move to the US if I was in your situation based on pure economics. The US is long from pulling out of the rescission and even if the laws do get changed there still be large areas that will be unfriendly for long times to come.

The forced change you talk about was the will of the many being forced on the few. Which like it or hate it is how government works. For many years it worked in the opposite fashion like it is now. Gov carries out the wishes of the majority. You change the laws by changing the people. You don't change people by changing the laws. Change the laws without changing the people the discrimination just goes underground.

Right now the majority of the US is opposed to same sex marriage. If you want the will of the people to be carried out it would be an all out ban. Instead we have little pockets of hope here and there. It would be awesome if it happened over night but its not going to.

I say let the bigot states band together if they so choose. For those that choose to open their doors they should have access to federal benefits. Until that happens its a state by state debate with only state benefits granted.

I believe in what you're standing for, I just don't think change happens over night and I'm a little offended when you gloss over the change that has already happened like its nothing.

You are so, so wrong.

The US constitutionally protects minorities from majorities. The majority wanted segregation till the supreme court forced it by law. Even if it weren't how the country works (and it is) it's morally despicable to claim I have to convince bigots they are wrong before I can live my own life and pursue happiness.

I literally can't understand how you can be so wrong. How the flying FUCK can same-sex marriage discriminate against straight people? Unbelievable. Let the bigot states band together? Sure that's great for all their eventual GLBT children that have to suffer through their idiocy.

And I don't worry about loopholes, I'm not coming back to the US again willingly. The second I have my Icelandic citizenship, I'm dropping my American citizenship.

Thomas Jefferson:
3. The protection provided by this principle applies fundamentally, of course, in favor of a minority of one: The Individual. No majority, however great even all of the people but one Individual--may properly infringe, or possess the power to infringe, the rights of any minority, however small--even a minority of a lone Individual.

[poopinmymouth]

I'm confused...What is stopping your husband from getting a job and his own visa Ben? As far as I know they dont ask your sexual orientation upon entering the country or applying for a visa.

I understand that getting a work visa isn't the easiest task (for anyone, regardless of sexual orientation) but it's certainly possible as many people seem to have success with it.

If you say you cant go back unless they recognize your marriage then what about states that allow gay marriage? Do you simply have to renew your marriage license stateside? Forgive me for not knowing the finer details, but am I to believe that the gay-marriage-welcome states allow "title only" marriage, with no benefit sharing? (not sure what the point is then?)

Would a suitable alternative be to both have jobs that provide the benefits you require while peacefully and proactively working to make life better for homosexuals in the US?

You realize that's not equal rights, if I marry a woman and she can come and just lay around my house or work as a janitor and never worry about legalities of visas? Visas are not easy to get in the US, they're expensive, and should be unnecessary in this case. It's not relevant though because neither of us want to live there. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the law.

States that allow same sex marriage are forbidden from offering federal benefits by DOMA and one federal benefit is living/working rights for foreign spouses. Every one of the 50 states could legalize same sex marriage, and without the repeal of DOMA it won't matter for American/foreigner same-sex marriages.

My suitable alternative is to live in a country with equal rights for all it's citizens and not contribute to a government that I so fundamentally disagree with. (and gay rights are the least of my beefs with the US government)

[Sandbag]

I guess I've never understood why marriage allowed a 'free pass' to citizenship when it's so hard for everyone else. When there are so many loveless marriages it's hard for me to see the fairness in that.

It also kind of kills your point about how bad it is to be barred from the place of your birth if you think that place sucks and you never want to go back.

Even as black-and-white as I tend to see things you really just cant expect the world to flip on and off like a light switch to bend to your demands, no matter how right or just those demands are. Sometimes you have to be more realistic, work with what you have, and then work to make life better for yourself and for others. Believe me, I'm all about fighting for your beliefs, but if you want to take that stance you actually have to stand up and do something with it.

Does giving up on the US help anyone else that might want to follow the same path you describe? If you're really that passionate about the issue why not come back and do something about it? Something with more weight than yelling at a bunch of artists on the internets.

[Mark Dygert]

The US constitutionally protects minorities from majorities. The majority wanted segregation till the supreme court forced it by law. Even if it weren't how the country works (and it is) it's morally despicable to claim I have to convince bigots they are wrong before I can live my own life and pursue happiness. In its modern interpretation that's how it works, in theory. How sweet it would be if we lived in Jefferson's dream world.
In practicality laws get passed all the time based on general consensus or majority vote. Those laws at some point will tread on the rights of a few people.

You live in an open society because someone already took the time to change the people. It might not have taken as much convincing or even an angry argument but someone put in the work.

Even if the law was changed and the people where not you would legally have the right, but the pursuit of happiness wouldn't follow without change to the people. The change to the law isn't a bigot-be-gone wand that gets waved. If you want the law changed great, but to be a truly open society the people have to change. I can't hold it against you for not wanting to shout down bigots your entire life and seeking a better life some place else. But really if everyone did that, then DOMA wins.


Let the bigot states band together? Sure that's great for all their eventual GLBT children that have to suffer through their idiocy. Yea true, but even with changed laws and open boarders they would still grow up in the same closed society. The effect is the same unless the people are changed.

We agree on the issue even if my facts are off, I agree. Equal rights and treatment for all people. But we don't agree on how to bring about that change.

[adam]

Okie, you've had your fun. Now its time to go make.. oh I don't know... VIDEOGAME ART?

:)