degree vs. portfolio, "falling back on a degree"

[BlackulaDZ]

I know this has been discussed many times but... im gonna rant a bit.
So I was having a chat with my parents about my plans for the future; I'm starting my 2nd year at a community college in a couple weeks to get an associates in animation, then (probably) doing another two years at F.I.T. I'm not 100% sure I want to do that though... But anyways what i'm getting at is, my parents really want me to finish the 4 years of schooling so even if I can't find a job right away, I'd have a degree to "fall back on" this seems like a decent idea but that doesn't really seem possible in this industry...
So for you guys in the industry, did you go to school or are self taught? and for the self taught dudes, did the companies ask much about a degree?
Hope that makes sense and thanks for readin' :)

[bounchfx]

I went to school. everything I heard though is that a degree is useless without the skills to back it up... even then, most companies just want to see a solid portfolio and could care less about your schooling.

but there ARE companies that value and even require a degree. so like.. yeah.

[Ruz]

well then good thing about going to a college or some kind of higher education is that you meet like minded people, have some fun and develop some social skills

I was a student for seven years and had a blast

[SHEPEIRO]

degree degree degree, ive worked with quite a few striaght outta comptons (srry pissed) and the knowledge/teamwork/independant thought processes i learnt doing a Fine art degree have given me more than the 3 years extra i might have learnt in the industry.

industry learning is restriceted IMO its a young industry, bring something from outside and you will be in a much better position than bringing something that everyone else has too

having said that and read your post propperly i would be hesitant as the learning you garner at a "games based course" probably wont be as good as actually being there doiung that and getting the fucking T'shirt

[Mark Dygert]

If you're in school, finish up and make sure you have a bangin' portfolio when you're done. School or self taught you'll need one of those either way. Now probably isn't a great time to go job hunting so it makes sense to finish up and then head out when the weather is better.

Don't compare yourself to other students compare yourself to your future peers.

[FunkaDelicDass]

In all my interviews for games jobs (about 5 over the past 9 years), my degree never came up as a point of discussion.

Addressing your parents' point of having a degree to fall back on: I don't think that philosophy ever applies to any artistic line of work. It's all portfolio based.

I'm not trying to discourage you from going to school, but know what you're getting into. It's all about your portfolio.

[Junkie_XL]

I think Electronic Arts requires a 4 year degree don't they? I think it is rather silly myself too. It should always just be about your skills. I guess a degree shows you can "finish something". But do people really need to be going into so much debt to do that?

[Thegodzero]

my experience with game degree schools (UAT) was paying to be bent over and raped of my money for two years.

game schools = paying to have people read you the books you bought for the class by past students who couldn't make it in the industry.

art schools = paying to be slapped around for two years while learning how to be a better artist.

[imb3nt]

I've worried about the same thing for a bit... I went to AI for 2 years but didn't finish up and get my degree. I want to eventually go back and complete the program but i've still been applying at studios, hoping it wouldn't hurt me too bad. I dunno. In the mean time i'm just gonna art it up, learning and try to make a badass portfolio.

Godspeed sir.

[Firebert]

Addressing your parents' point of having a degree to fall back on: I don't think that philosophy ever applies to any artistic line of work. It's all portfolio based.

I agree. A degree is good for becoming a lawyer, doctor, psychologist, finance and business blah blah blah. Even with those occupations you would have to get a Masters to compete with people in those lines of work.

now if you are interested in programming, that may be a different story, but it seems like you are more interested in an art based career. guess it depends on a couple of things. are you living with your parents right now? is your finishing college a condition of living under their roof? moving out on your own and working enough hours will probably take up just as much time as going to school... unless you are out on your own, then you realize this already... but i do know that going to school and holding down a job doesn't provide enough hours of income to support yourself unless you are sharing an apartment, or living in a total run down crime and drug infested area of town.... and it certainly doesn't allow you enough time to work on your portfolio having to work that much to pay the rent and eat.... but hey, cost of living is different everywhere you go.

either way, you need to be working on your portfolio religiously. like Vig said, the waters a rough right now, so finishing school may not be a bad idea, but finishing won't help you too much in getting a job somewhere else. just because you went to school to study animation doesn't mean you'll be able to fall back on a job as a web designer or graphic designer if no one in the game industry is interested in hiring you. all art related careers are very specific in what they are looking for out of their employee.

oh, and if it is any consultation... a good friend of mine went to AI for a year... dropped out because he realized he needed to work on his portfolio to get anywhere... stayed with his parents for a few years, and now has a full-time gig.... why? because his portfolio kicked ass.

[breakneck]

most of the people i know, including myself, went to art school. I think it was important for myself personally - I was ignorant of what programs/ techniques where being used in the game industry.

But its not the degree that will make you successful. Its your portfolio and your attitude.

[SHEPEIRO]

a degree is GREAT for meeting interesting people, deciding where your going in life, shagging hot women, taking too many drugs, not learning what you should be learning and talking alot of shite.

NONE OF THESE THINGS SHOULD BE MISS-JUDGED AS WORTHLESS

[pior]

Well if the point is to have something to fall back on, then shouldn't that degree be in a field rather distant from game art? Like law, economics, you name it ...

Because if you don't find a job in games ... then go look for "fall back'' job using your game art degree .... how would that give you more jobs? I don't get the logic.

I mean it works if say, you want to start your own audit company, but it fails, then I guess you could always get a job as an accountant thanks to the appropriate degree as a fall back - because one can safely be hired based on degree only in that field (I guess). But for art it doesn't really apply...

And yeah degrees are good if you need to relocate too.

[TomDunne]

I wouldn't recommend anyone get a degree specifically for game art, that's awfully narrow, but a general degree in art or design can have plenty of application. My friend and I both went to school with video game art in mind, butwe studied all kinds of electronic media - primarily 3D, but also 2D design, motion graphics, video, interactive, etc. Turns out that was the right decision, as we're both from Ohio and were happier here staying with our friends and families than moving off to find work. No game jobs here, so we had to find something else.

Nearly ten years later, we both love games and still tinker in the field, but he works as a 3D artist doing architectural visualizations, and I do lots of 3D and interactive for an ad agency. We couldn't get those jobs if all we knew was lowpoly and level building, but those game-related skills are still valuable. Just today I found out that Papervision3D for Flash has a new method for importing .md2 models. Every in my office is shaking their heads that I know all about how to use them the first day we started with them, just from making Quake2 models ages ago.

Solid art/design skills can directly translate into big wins in both game and non-game related careers, so broaden your education rather than narrow it. If you can go from games to advertising to designing consumer goods to film production, you're in way better shape to find jobs you want to do and flexible enough to survive tough economic times. If you have to 'fall back', you really won't fall all that far if you have diverse experiences and a broad skillset.

[Parnell]

You are only young once. You will work for most of your life.
I'm with Shepeiro enjoy your college years.
My last job was incredibly hesitant to hire people with out college degrees. I'd say get a degree in something besides strictly games. You might decide in 5 years that you hate the games industry and just really like it more as a hobby or perhaps you can't get a job in the industry. Or get a degree in finance go work as a CPA then in 5-10 years you'll have enough money to fund your own game:)
I wish i thought of that!
B

[Richard Kain]

Don't get a degree in Art. Art is 30% talent, 65% practice/hard work, and no more than 5% book learning. And with access to various programs is much more open these days, so you don't need to go to university to learn software.

If you are going to go to school to get a degree to "fall back on," then get a more technical degree. You can't "fall back" on an art degree. An art degree won't get you an art job, and it certainly won't get you any job that your portfolio wouldn't. A degree in a more technical field will be more transferable, and more likely to net you stable employment to weather the lean times. I'd suggest something in data management. (databases, server maintenance, etc...) This sort of field is not that hard to learn, there are always job opportunities, and it even pays well.

[Jackwhat]

Define talent richard, cuz id say its 99% hardwork :P

And i'll side with Shep... If I got anything from my degree it was 3 years "out" to study/learn and look at what i wanted to do and I also met some awesome people to boot. Dont take a game art course though haha

[aesir]

it's 99% hard work for people with 1% talent :)

I think we all know that some people have aptitudes for certain things. Hard work conquers all though.

[oXYnary]

Don't get a degree in Art. Art is 30% talent, 65% practice/hard work, and no more than 5% book learning. And with access to various programs is much more open these days, so you don't need to go to university to learn software.

If you are going to go to school to get a degree to "fall back on," then get a more technical degree. You can't "fall back" on an art degree. An art degree won't get you an art job, and it certainly won't get you any job that your portfolio wouldn't. A degree in a more technical field will be more transferable, and more likely to net you stable employment to weather the lean times. I'd suggest something in data management. (databases, server maintenance, etc...) This sort of field is not that hard to learn, there are always job opportunities, and it even pays well.

If your speaking about commercial art, then you have a valid opinion as the skillset is more in reach to learn immediately. However, if you are speaking about fine arts as well, then your talking out the rear. How do you show the emotion of languish? How do you convey a poem in light? Learning how to communicate your ideas and seek new ways of seeing things while experiencing new varieties of skills you would never other wise get the chance. Say like casting bronze, using a tig, printmaking, roman art and architecture history from a lead in the field. Making friends with diverse fields from a engineer, to a plant scientist. A university setting especially allows these scarce items to come together for a student to have a smorgasbord of knowledge and learning that would otherwise take much longer to come across and at greater cost.

Getting a degree does not always equate to getting a job, sometimes its to build a better more informed citizen. That's one of the saddest parts today that people assume that school should only be used for the fastrack to getting a job, versus having an experience and situation in their life to grow and seek new ways of understanding and living.

Of course, with how student loans have gone, you have no choice but to choose careers versus a finding a life path in higher education these days. Once your out the door, the payments begin immediately, no matter if you want to take the lower paying non-profit job, work in the cafe while you paint at night, or spend time in Peacecorps.

[joe gracey]

<start block of words>

I have a degree in game design, but when I graduated my skills weren't up to par so I never got a job. And since I focused so much on 3d, my fine art skills went down hill (but to be honest, I wasn't really the best to begin with). I soon realized that I pretty much backed myself into a corner. I have 3d skills, but not the best, so I can't get into a game company. I don't have the best 2d skills so I can't do graphic design or stuff like to pay the bills until I get a game job. So essentially, my degree is useless outside of the game industry. I would really like to go back to school and get a masters in fine art or architecture, but that is a long ways away.

So my advice would be, IF you can get skilled enough to get a job without going to school, DO IT. Otherwise, get the degree.

Also, work your ass off, because someone else out there is.

<end block of words>

[Jeremy Wright]

Hard work conquers all though.

Goddamn right.

There's an attitude that some things just come easy to certain people. I believe that some things come easier to them, but nothing worth having or doing is ever easy.

My personal opinion is if you love making art then just make it; you don't need a degree to make art. Outsider/low-brow art for the win.

Also, I agree w/ Richard Kain about not being able to 'fall back' on an art degree. Art is a dream job, you fall back on technology/teaching jobs. With that said, if you decide to go to university for the security of having something to fall back on, you still need to work your ass off at it. Treat it like a second rate priority and you will be doubly fucked (student loans and no job prospects because you suck).

[killingpeople]

sure, a degree helps. and with the popularity of shit, how grown up the industry is starting to become, you'd be better off with one. plus the backup plan is legit. in other words, it helps. i went to school, got a degree. it's really expensive and it was a long term commitment. i met a lot of awesome people in school that are now in the industry. they wouldn't risk putting in a good word for me, i don't blame them, but at least i can say i know them ;) i feel college teaches you a lot of useful things and puts you in a 'fertile' learning environment for your subject of choice. i think it gives you the chance to discharge a lot of the typical developer noob blunders within a safe environment; social and technical. and most of all, titties. aint no titties in a real studio. it gave me a sobering/hangover state of mind when absorbing the reality of my accomplishment. you look back over your journey and turn to look forward, saying to yourself, "thank god that's over with" with this in mind, you spend much more time thinking about long term commitments, as you've finally just lived and experience one to it's entirety, and it was exausting! and you think, "the next one had better be worth all this fucking work." that's the biggest lesson i learned,

[Cody]

a degree is GREAT for meeting interesting people, deciding where your going in life, shagging hot women, taking too many drugs, not learning what you should be learning and talking alot of shite.

NONE OF THESE THINGS SHOULD BE MISS-JUDGED AS WORTHLESS

This is the smartest thing I've ever heard. I have a four year art degree from a state school [a real college]. And even though I don't have an industry job yet, I wouldn't trade those four year for anything. Best years of my life [so far]. Just male sure you use those 4 years to do all of the things said above, AND have a great portfolio. Just do it.

[JohnnyRaptor]

iv got a degree, but goddamn i regret wasting my time! if i had applied for a job when i instead applied for school i woulda been in a different world...ah...my kingdom for a timemachine!

[willy-wilson]

well there's 2 sides to this, i have the mentality that going would be a waste of time and money that could be better spent with just hard work and practice. But, you also have to look at it as if you and someone else are of the same skill set or skill level and applying for the same job they will most likely hire you because you have the degree...

[Rick Stirling]

A degree = written proof that you can get a job done. "Look at that person, they kept their wits about them on a FOUR YEAR PROJECT".

Getting a degree = having a load of new life experiences, learning to look after yourself, cook and buy toilet paper.


My degree is fairly unrelated to my job (like most people that I know), but I'm glad I did it.

[Gannon]

It feels like one shows more personal traits more then the other, ie portfolio shows that a person learns well on their own and tends to be much more passionate imo. while degree shows that they're dedicated and can stay focus on things for a long period of time. really all and all it's gonna get you to the same place, the only factor is time......

[stoofoo]

Fine art = go. Game related? No.

[ZacD]

I'm getting my associates in art, the animation program at my community college is a joke, no concept of edge flow, only teaches pretty basic stuff.
I want to take some photoshop painting courses too, but I'm sure they aren't much better.

After 2 years of community college I may go to gnomon, but I'm still undecided, and I need to save up for that.

[Thegodzero]

Other options to replace the "he can finish what he starts" would be to get a job at a casual games studio and stay there for a few years releasing 20 odd crappy games. Only hing is if you loose that job you have nothing to fall back on, as most aaa game studios don't like to hire from those companys. So your pretty much stuck at companys like that untill your art is beyond amazing.

[teatime]

The process of getting a degree is all about personal development.

If after 2-4 years you have a degree but no portfolio, what the hell have you been doing with yourself? With or without a degree you need a healthy portfolio, and it depends on the studio. Get your stuff together and start applying, it can't hurt to find out.

[PieJesu]

I've seen some of the courses around Britain and, they're not looking good. Taking courses in University in games related art won't help you at all. They teach you basic stuff that you already know, only over a period of 4 years.

Learning the basics should really only take a fortnight if you're actually serious about these things.

The course seems to be more of a hinderence rather than an augmentation. You'll be falling back to basics when you should be doing more advanced things - or working already.

They force you to create things they want you to create, creating them by the book so it all looks the same. Not very good for a portfolio if you ask me!

I'm going to be taking a course in Computing Science as I really think work in other areas that you aren't so strong in is better than work in an already decent place (that you can teach yourself). The statement 'jack-of-all trades' falls into play but I think it's bollocks. You can learn as much as you want to learn. Your brain can take it all!

[IEatApples]

The course I do is in Computer Arts, yes partially a game art course, but it covers many areas, such as animation, film, script writing, traditional art etc. So really it gives you chance to experience everything to see what you really enjoy. Plus my university has a lot of connections with other games companies such as Realtime worlds.

I have loved every minute of uni and don't regret going at all. Was 17 when I went so was to young to do much else really like start looking for a game industry job... And on a plus side the Scottish system means I won't really be in debt when I finish either.

[PieJesu]

I'm in Scotland too, considering Universities next year. Which is it you go to? Glasgow Calydonian?

PM me about it please! Your opinion of it would help me.


As a side note: If you are going to teach yourself, make sure you show your work to people that are prepared to criticise it, ie. not your mates. They're trying to please you by saying it's good but, realistically, it might not stand a chance in the industry.

[Farfarer]

I started a degree in Computer Game Art, quit it after 2 years as it was shite and I'd gotten a real job in the industry.

That said, I still wish I had a degree. If I could go back and do it again, I'd take a degree in a traditional art field like Fine Arts or Illustration. Any monkey can learn how to model or texture, but really solid traditional art knowledge and understanding takes longer to learn and act as a much more solid foundation to build your game art skills on top of (as opposed to just being able to model and texture).

Just DO NOT go for a degree in Game Art or Game Design (or something like that) - 99% of them are an utter waste of time, money and effort.

[PieJesu]

Heh. Good advice Talon. Maybe there are some people that benefit from the Game Art courses (ie. they have had no experience of it before Colledge/University).

[IEatApples]

I think if a Uni has a good reputation with the game industry its always good looking into.

A good point which got me to join my course was a competition it ran called Dare to Be Digital (http://www.daretobedigital.com) which is sponsored by autodesk, adobe etc, and you get mentored by games companies like blitz and rockstar.

[Matabus]

I'm with Shep ... go to college and have some fun, that's basically all it's about. Drugs, women, music, art, booze, parties, friends, and ramen.

[carlo_c]

I'd echo what everyone else is saying about studying for a degree at Uni being about the experience.

That said, you only get as much as you put in, there will always be people who just skim through uni then wonder why they can't get a job at the end of it while the people who can balance their time and work hard get the best of both worlds.

[Ghostscape]

I have business and web/print design degree, but I'm employed as a 3d artist. I took a 10 week Maya class after teaching myself 3ds Max for 3 years but have no other formal training. I've worked with a number of folks that don't have a degree, either - it is definitely possible to find work in the 3d world without a degree.

If you have an art degree, it is useless without an accompanying portfolio, so having it "to fall back on" is a bad idea. If you want a degree to "fall back on" get something that could be helpful (IE a business degree will certainly help if you want to go freelance or start your own company some day).

If you're employable after 2 years with an associates in animation, then consider looking for jobs. If you're not, then go to school and get a 4 year degree.

[BlackulaDZ]

wow I didnt expect so many replies so quickly...well I'm going to finish all of my schooling, and during said time; work on my portfolio religiously.

[Richard Kain]

wow I didnt expect so many replies so quickly...well I'm going to finish all of my schooling, and during said time; work on my portfolio religiously.

This is a subject that is a common experience for a lot of people. We all go through the crisis of trying to figure out what we want to do with our lives when the structure of high school is left behind. So everyone has their own take on the topic, and probably wants to share.

[Richard Kain]

If your speaking about commercial art, then you have a valid opinion as the skillset is more in reach to learn immediately. However, if you are speaking about fine arts as well, then your talking out the rear.

You make several interesting points. But I was speaking strictly in the practical sense. The OP was talking about getting a degree as something "to fall back on." Meeting and interacting with interesting people and professors in various fields is not something that you "fall back on." It can certainly broaden your experiences and horizons, and possibly even establish some valuable networking connections. But those are all subjective benefits, unique to the individual. In terms of acquiring stable employment, an art degree in either graphic design or fine art is not a very good choice.

It is very common for artists to get the axe first when times get lean for a company. Corporations know that having an artist on the payroll is a matter of convenience, not necessity. There is always outsourcing and stock art to fall back on. Obvoiusly those are not good solutions, but managers concerned only with the bottom line don't care. If a company has to decide between the person making the brochures, and the person managing the company's internal database, they are going to fire the artist. Technical jobs tend to be in much greater demand, and usually higher paying than artistic positions. Getting a more technical degree is more likely to insure stable employment than getting an art degree.

[cman2k]

What you should really take away from this is;

YES get a degree (but keep it cheap)
NO don't waste your time and money on a game-specific degree. especially not your money.

[Sage]

look it's common knowledge that if you get a degree you end up getting a decent paying job once you get it. While this is true for some professions, like engineering, or medicine, this is false. This is something your parents hope to be true so you don't have to face the same hardships they faced as adults... Some degrees mean better paying jobs, a lot of them especially art related, are just a quick way to get into debt.

Your parents are wrong and what you have been taught about getting degrees are too.

[IEatApples]

You make it sound like its a bad thing getting a degree though. I know its not everything but it can't hurt to have one.

If you want to be a 3D artist I don't see many kids being like "yea that's what I want to do but ill get a degree in maths just in case..."

[NyneDown]

Man, I've talked way too much about this subject. I think the answer is pretty clear for anybody looking into getting in the industry: Do what you're comfortable with. If you need a structured classroom setting, look at different schools and make sure you dont get burnt. If you dont need a structured setting, more power to ya. Buy some books, tutorials, etc....But regardless, do your research first, (obviously getting opinions from others is part of that process so w0rd.)

A piece of paper is just that...a piece of paper. It doesnt guarantee you anything...your hard-work, dedication and talent are what's going to get you where you want to go.

[Sage]

The reason I say it how I do is because it's a waste of money to get a degree in something that doesn't prepare you to do a profession. Not only is it a bad from a business point of view, but it's a huge waste of time. If you find yourself owing thousands of dollars and unable to land a decent job because you were not properly trained you would see it as a bad thing.

Also the problem is you don't need a degree to do a 3d artist job, you need skills. Because the education system is set up in a generic fashion at least in the US. All you need to teach is a masters, no skill what so ever and be good at BS to pass through the interview process of the Higher Ed institutions. The end result is a ton of people with degrees with no proper training looking for jobs. Yes it is a bad thing. Getting a degree isn't bad, getting "training" that can't get you a job, because you were not prepared for a the huge amount of money you paid is. I don't have a problem with degrees, I have a problem with people getting ripped off.

[NyneDown]

Amen brotha!

[00Zero]

but how the hell do you "fall back" on a degree in animation of game art if you cant find a a job in the animation of game biz? i mean, does it even apply anywhere else?

[IEatApples]

Hmm well its a bit different here. We get taught specifically for the industry, what they request from our course anyway. Plus in Scotland the government pay for your higher education, so the only debt people come out with here is living costs.

So really its missing out on a good opportunity of paid education here.

[Sage]

You don't know how good you have it then. :D

[TomDunne]

All you need to teach is a masters, no skill what so ever and be good at BS to pass through the interview process of the Higher Ed institutions.

What kind of crap schools have you been to where this is the case? I've been on a college faculty before and I've seen what goes into the hiring process - at a good design school, you need a hell of a lot more than a diploma and BS to get the job. The faculty and administrators look at portfolios, just like employers in the industry do.

[Sage]

The school I went to wasn't crap, the faculty didn't know much about Computer Art which posed problems for me and all students in my situation. A few of them just ruined the program with their professionalism. I did learn what to look out for when looking to enroll in schools. The main thing with me is if the professor teaching the game art classes doesn't know anything about the game industry, then I just keep looking for another school.

Vermilion which school have you been to where the art program was worth it? I think that's more useful to know. While it's true that schools like game studios look at portfolios, Game studios won't hire a game designer and expect him to a be a senior animator. To put this in context, how many Game Artists with industry experience have Masters,... Also why would a school decide to hire someone that doesn't know anything about Game design to teach the class. This is the kind of thing that happens in schools.

To get hired at a school you need a Masters, lots of exhibitions and seem to have good people skills. You don't have to have experience in the class you are expecting to teach however, In contrast, to get hired at a game company normally you need to have experience related to the job you are applying for and a portfolio that proves this area of expertise.

[TomDunne]

First, I'll just say again that going to school specifically for game art doesn't strike me as a good idea. I'm not surprised if the instruction there isn't great, because it's such a niche.

I went to the University of Cincinnati and got a design degree. Their industrial design program is usually ranked in the top five nationwide and probably the top fifty for overall creative arts. While in school, I made some Q2 PMPs for a class (later classes did Unreal characters) and I developed and published a Half-Life mod as my senior project. But I also learned about layout, typography, photography, the history of art, the history of cinema, interactivity and a bunch of non-game related skills that I'm better off for knowing.

I didn't go into the game industry, but that doesn't mean a traditional design or art program at a good school won't take you there. A guy who graduated a couple classes before me, Evan Carroll, went on to become a character artist for Blizzard right after school. He did a lot of the character art for Diablo II, which is as big time as any of us would hope for. Evan's actually back at Cincinnati now, where he's just finished up his master's degree in fine art and he's been teaching art classes (yep, even before he got his diploma - there's no substitute for crazy good skills.)

I don't mean to be pimping my school, it's got bad spots like anything else. What I want to get across is that a GOOD education in design or art can open lots of doors, including to the game industry, and still give you other choices. Trying to get a specific degree in character animation from a nearly unknown Game Art University... it's limiting you, not making you grow. Be an artist, not just a game artist or be a designer, not just a level designer. I know that path's not for everyone, but I've never met anyone who graduated from my program and regretted all the things they learned.

(sorry for the length, I must be lonely tonight :) )

[Stradigos]

I am in a similar situation as you BlackulaDZ. I didn't have the cash to go to a premier animation school like Full Sail, or [insert big name school here], so I went to a small school in which the animation program was only a few years old. I had to make the best of my education and work hard. I stood out, top of my class and became president of the animation club. I also got to work with my instructors and dean to help improve the program.

My advice is stick with your animation degree and work long and hard on your portfolio and teaching yourself. The animation degree is designed to give you a mile wide knowledge, but only six feet deep. People aren't going to hold your hand on the job when you need to learn something. You need to be able to teach yourself and troubleshoot your own problems. Plus, creativity isn't something that can be taught either.

[crazyfingers]

I must be doing this college thing wrong because i've just been working my ass off. I can't bring myself to say the people I see focusing on women, drugs, booze, or most often video games are on the road to success. If you want all those, go to Mexico, it's a hell of a lot cheaper and there's no homework.

If you want a job in the game industry, work your ass off, get better than most the people trying to make it, and don't be a dick, that simple. You can do this from home if you have the dedication and find the right tutorials. Gnomen videos are awesome. You can do it at school if you have less dedication but more money and time to spend. Though i must warn you that school will get you on the right track, but at points derail you and force you to do worthless BS. It's a trade off. I would highly reccomend a non degree program, a school with less general ed classes, and more 3d applications. You'll save time, money, and get right into what you want with less BS.

Above all stay passionate about the craft or you'll never put the time in to rise to a level that might actually get you a job. And as always there's no guarantees in life so just go at it and hope for the best. At least you wont regret not giving it a shot.

[Rock Bottom]

it also depends maybe some people like me that doesn't have money to go to a Graphics Design school. i mean i don't even have the money to buy a Graph Card my machine was actually given to me piece by piece from a friend that has better stuff now but it would be easier to get a Designing Program and just look up tutorials then you will get there eventually it might not take you 3 days maybe even years but really work hard and get that portfolio done and 1 more thing have a blast :D

[NyneDown]

My 4 year media arts/animation degree helped me get the job I have today (graphic design-ish type of work), so even if you dont land in the industry right away...that degree still opens other doors that would have never opened in the first place without it. Where I'm at now is a great "fall back" type of job because it pays decently and I'm able to stay on my feet while I still pursue gaming. So I say no, getting a degree is never a waste of time but it can get pricey...just explore your options and be proactive.

[catstyle]

degrees are a great chance to give you the time to put together a portfolio that could get you hired. the degree itself wont get you anywhere without the portfolio. and which one should take priority whilst you are at uni studying your degree? your portfolio.

[raul]

I think that if you are fucking badass, you dont really need a degree. But then there is that thing where u kinda need to have one to show that you are a) a proffesional and b) have a drive!

For an hr person, im pretty sure the last 2 are very important, but i lean more towards the 1st. I didnt go to school, im doing alright! :)

Tho, sometimes i think it would be cool to have a degree, to teach maybe. Or for other reasons.

[IchII3D]

Remember that art related University degrees are all self taught, you don't go there and they pump you full of everything you need to know, your set projects and its up to you as an individual to analyse the problem, find a solution and work your ass of on something your passionate about. This concept of working is why so many people complain and fail art related university degrees. Your not buying training, your buying time to master your skills.

If you finish an art related degree and complain it got you no where, then its you who are to blame. Just think back at all those times you could and should have been working your ass off.

I thought I would express that opinion on Universities that commonly isn't.

[killingpeople]

necropost

[hijak]

Not sure what schools don't require experience to teach at, but that sounds pretty stupid to me. AT my school all teachers must have a minimum of 5 years industry experience. And we don't have teachers teaching what they don't know, for the most part. WE have animators teaching animation, environment artists teaching environments and character artists teaching characters. Of course the situation arises where a new course might contain lessons that a teacher never had the chance to actually do at work, This is mostly true when things change rapidly, for a long time low poly art was being downplayed, in favor of only next gen stuff, but now we are seeing so many games on the iphone that we started courses specifically to work with a local company creating low poly art for their games. so times arise when the teacher may not be able to answer a question for you, but this happens and then you spend the time to figure it out on your own, or wait for them to do it.
I think it a matter of getting the right degree. If you want an art degree get one, but dont be fooled by an education that will only teach tool's and not art. In the last 5 years a ton of schools have popped up to take advantage of the growing demand for 3D training. Do your research find a good school with a good reputation and look at the art their students create.
While my degree will be a BFA in game art, i learned so many other skills while at it. Ive done video and sound editing, web design, sculpture, welding, figure drawing, painting, journalism, etc etc etc the list goes on. And that diversity has paid off, i have managed to land a number of freelance jobs in 3D and non 3D art, and i could not have done so without the diverse skill set i have developed.
that said, a teacher may be able to show you how to use a software package, and the proper way to model, and also help you a ton with your projects, and most of all if they are good they will tell you when you suck and make sure you realize it so you can get better. But it is always up to the student to become proficient with the software, and to bridge the gap of being a great artist and a great technician.
The school is what you make of it, the resources are there you have to use them they wont come to you.
And thought i would mention that i have seen many job postings that said something like
"3 years experience, or equivalent degree in one of following fields (etc etc etc)".
so it depends on the company, and i feel that if you live in an area that has a lot of 3d artists with degree's then your are probably going to be better off with one.

id be interested to see some statistics about how many people in the industry have degrees and how many don't and have that compared to what year they started working in the industry. Like are most self trained artists people who have been in the industry a long time, or what. Because i imagine 10 years ago entry level positions did not require the same level of art skill that today's positions might.

[roosterMAP]

by being self taught, u can use that to your advantage. it makes you seem smarter than the rest of the croud. you can even argue that you think differently than the other "non self taught people."

Sadly, some companies DO require you to have some school degree to get on their team. they make the rules. :(

But if ur portfolio is good enough... hell ya, you can get a job!

best of luck!

[Eric Chadwick]

If this was mentioned before, my apologies.

Some accurate advice (http://realtimecollisiondetection.net/blog/?p=70#comment-2383) from Christer Ericson, Director of Tools and Technology at Sony Computer Entertainment:
It's a meritocracy: I'll hire you based on what you know, I don't care how you obtained the knowledge or what school you did or didn't go do; the only thing that matters is that you have the chops.
He's talking about Programmers, but the same criteria applies to Artists. A good read, more like it in the wiki here (http://wiki.polycount.net/GameBusiness).

I've noticed that mention of my school's name often produces a nod of appreciation, merely because it's a school well-known for its output. But it's only that, a nod. Doesn't account for much at all. My portfolio is still by far the biggest deciding factor, followed (distantly) by my experience.

[Vrav]

Thanks for sharing that Eric, always makes a body optimistic to know one's ability is what need be accounted for.

[catstyle]

Remember that art related University degrees are all self taught, you don't go there and they pump you full of everything you need to know, your set projects and its up to you as an individual to analyse the problem, find a solution and work your ass of on something your passionate about. This concept of working is why so many people complain and fail art related university degrees. Your not buying training, your buying time to master your skills.

If you finish an art related degree and complain it got you no where, then its you who are to blame. Just think back at all those times you could and should have been working your ass off.

I thought I would express that opinion on Universities that commonly isn't.

qft

[Ravenslayer]

It all comes down to what you want to achieve with your career, i`m still of the opinion that if you want something and you go for it a 100% it will get you somewhere one way or the other because a good portfolio will not go unnoticed !

education is as previously stated a great way to work on your social skills.
I also learned what teamwork is like and how to handle deadlines in a team, because doing something for yourself or doing something and having others rely on its outcome is a completely different thing imo.

When you think of quitting decide for yourself, take all the costs that you already made and the amount of knowledge you got from it and then see if it`s worth the money.

[Kewop Decam]

I think of being an artist like a professional athlete. If you have amazing skills, no one gives a damn where you came from. A football player coming from a popular school like a USC or UF will definitely have added kudos, but at the end of the day if you're a good football player you will be wanted no matter where you came from. It's the same for an artist if you ask me.

I know people who quit in the middle of college to get into the gaming business as artist. I think a degree shows a good commitment to sticking to something fully through, but that degree doesn't mean squat if you don't have the skills. No one will even know what school you went too if your portfolio isn't good because they'll look at the portfolio first and decide from there if they care to know more about you thus checking out your resume/cover letter.

[alexk]

Up until I got hired earlier this month, I was thinking maybe I should of went to school. I never anticipated that the economy would blow up when I started to learn 3d art by myself so I thought I'd never need to consider working outside of my country, which a degree helps with.

One of the questions I got asked during my interview was why I chose to be self-taught instead of going to school. I feel that some people learn better in a school setting and some learn better by themselves.

In the end, I got hired because of my portfolio and not because of how I learned. So a question you may want to ask yourself is, will you come out with a better portfolio spending 2 years in school, or spending 2 years at home by yourself.

[bluekangaroo]

If this was mentioned before, my apologies.

Some accurate advice (http://realtimecollisiondetection.net/blog/?p=70#comment-2383) from Christer Ericson, Director of Tools and Technology at Sony Computer Entertainment:

He's talking about Programmers, but the same criteria applies to Artists. A good read, more like it in the wiki here (http://wiki.polycount.net/GameBusiness).

I've noticed that mention of my school's name often produces a nod of appreciation, merely because it's a school well-known for its output. But it's only that, a nod. Doesn't account for much at all. My portfolio is still by far the biggest deciding factor, followed (distantly) by my experience.

I'm not disagreeing with you or anything but why does it seem like I keep getting shutted down because of the no professional experience thing, or is that just a polite excuse? even if it isnt the case why bother with the person at all by contacting them after looking at their work then experience or lack of and walk away?

[Eric Chadwick]

I don't have an answer really. Probably just incompetence on their part. They should have been able to see right away from your resume what your professional experience level is.

Your work looks to me like it's definitely good enough for an entry-level spot. Problem is, this is a very tough job market. Tons of applicants for each open position.

If you're getting a response, that's unusually good. Most places just plain don't respond.

[BlackulaDZ]

this is a really good discussion. Also I'm going to finish my associates in animation (one semester left after this one) then clean up my portfolio and attempt to apply to jobs. I'm really not enthusiastic about attending more school after I finish this degree. (and it's expensive) I'm self motivated enough to work my ass off on personal projects so I kind of feel like school would only slow me down at this point with the extra fluff.

[slipsius]

if you parents make you go back to school for whatever reason they have it in your head, go for marketing or HR or project management or something along those lines. THOSE degrees will be something to fall back on because not only do they give you a chance to still work in the game industry, but you can work in a variety of industries. It will keep your options open. Just, if you do that, make sure you keep working on your demo reel any chance you get.

as for finishing your degree right now. That's a smart move. When it comes to schooling for animation/game art, its always going to be opinion based of whether or not its a good idea. The people that are angry about going to school are usually the ones that didnt go the extra length and learn more than what the school is teaching them.

Schooling is meant to teach you the basic tools and keep you going by use of deadlines. Thats all they can really do. They cant teach you everything in the 2-4 years you are there. If you only do what the school asks you to do, you`re just screwing yourself over. You have to put in the effort, and do the self taught thing as well. If you know you arent being taught all the right things, go online and teach it to yourself. You`re not doing yourself any favours by sitting there complaining about it. fix it. do something constructive about it.

Yes, right now, most companies dont care if you have schooling or not, but more and more are starting to. So, right now you can get away with not having any schooling if you have a great portfolio. Personally, i find schooling a way to keep me on track. Its taught me the fundementals of what i need to learn while forcing me to keep at it. And with some online tutorials, ive been pushing myself to be better.

So really, when it comes to schooling for game art/animation, it really depends on your ability to push yourself. Your determination. Your will power. If you can stay motivated to be selftaught, all the power to you. But not everyone can.

[STRIKER]

I'm friends with black and actually go to the same school. Let me tell you, the teachers here are fkn monkeys. they don't motivate you, they don't inspire or any of that good stuff. they never worked in the industry ever. so thats why we feel like (at this school) we are wasting our money and time but god damm sooo frustrating and annoying. we basically learned what they know. yea.................

[CJE]

Heres my 2 pennies,

I think everyone wanting to get into this industry goes through the same question. After talking with a lot of industry friends, and from research, I've found it's exactly as you would think.

Your work speaks louder than words.

Companies want people that can do the job and work well with the team.

If you take two artists, one who is more talented, and one who is less, but has a degree, every time the more talented artist will get the job.

What a degree does IMO is show to X developer that you come "pre-programmed" with a certain set of knowledge. They know you know how to do certain things. Degree's often also give you opportunities to work with other talented students, and you learn a lot of the tools needed for the industry.

So I think degree's can be a great thing, but in the end it's what you do with the knowledge, not how you got that knowledge.

You can look at me for example, now by no means would I say I am an industry veteran, but I have had some success in the short time I've been around.

I was in school for 4 years, studying to be an Audiologist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiologist). It was a guaranteed 6 figure job. I got to a point tho where I realized my heart was not in it. I wanted to do something with my life that I enjoy.

I took a chance, a huge chance, dropped out of college, 1 year shy of finishing my BA, and took up 3D, knowing that I always wanted to work in the industry.

I already had massive student loans, so I didn't have the capital to go to a fancy art school, so I utilized something I think very unique to our community, the massive amount of resources and access.

I started to treat 3d like my job, learning on my own the basics of anatomy and art, and also the tech stuff like using 3ds Max, XSI, Maya, Zbrush, UV Mapping, etc..

I worked every single day, sometimes through the night because It's something I want.

I worked diligently to build industry contacts and learn from the many talented artists we are talking with everyday on boards like these. These people have a ton of knowledge they are willing to share.

Now, It's been 1 year and 2 months since I started. Since I picked up a pen tablet (Bamboo! :poly124:) and started learning the basics.

Now I'm not quite where I wanna be, but I am now working for Liquid Development, on several AAA titles that are going to look great on my resume, Along with the invaluable experience I'm gaining.

I don't have a degree, what I do have, and what I think you really need, is the will to do what it takes to do what you want in your life.

So, basically what I'm saying is, if you want to, and are able to get a degree, it would be a great experience, and cannot hurt you. If you cannot, or don't want to, it won't hurt you, as long as in both cases you realize you only get out of something what you put into it.

Work your ass off, never stop learning, you'll get what you want.

[DKK]

Yes, Not getting a degree will hurt you. You won't be able to get a work visa.

[CJE]

Yes, Not getting a degree will hurt you. You won't be able to get a work visa.

I did not think of this because I am in Canada, and I want to work locally, but yes, to get a VISA, you would need a degree, good point.

[Richard Kain]

Having a degree, is usually better than not having a degree.

If you are wanting to "fall back" on a degree, you need to make sure that it is a degree that you can actually "fall back" on. Most art degrees don't do very well as a career cushion. When you are an artist, you are only as good as your portfolio. Technical degrees are much better to fall back on. If you have a computer science degree, then you will be able to find work.

[Keg]

Yes, Not getting a degree will hurt you. You won't be able to get a work visa.

I've lost a couple job opportunities because of not having a degree. Thankfully I am about a month away from completing classes and a few months past that for completing my practicum.

[STRIKER]

I've lost a couple job opportunities because of not having a degree. Thankfully I am about a month away from completing classes and a few months past that for completing my practicum.

wait soo, if you don't have a degree you cant have a work visa? is the visa for to work in other countries?

[Keg]

Striker, some countries require degrees from immigrants for work visa's or equivalent work experience (4 years or so I think).