Sniper Rifle

[Disting]

Hi!
I'm working on a sniper rifle at the moment.
The concept is made by Michael Kingery (http://www.michaelkingery.com/). (Called Sniper Rifle http://www.michaelkingery.com/industrialdesign/ )

This is what I have so far:
http://i40.tinypic.com/5n3b6p.jpg

Please let me know what you think!

[sir-knight]

Nice implementation of the design, my beef is with the practicality of the design.

I like to look at design and implement it from a usability standpoint, so bare with me on this explanation.

Many people complain about Bullpup designs because the ejection port (for autos) is tossing out hot brass, and firing just inches from your face if you have the weapon shouldered. This is a pretty silly complaint since many forces are using these without any failures or injury as a result of these complaints.

However, a revolver does have significant spillage of hot gases from the ammo drum, when you put that beside your face, that's going to zing a bit. especially on a round so large.

I would consider adding something like a plate to keep these gasses away from the user, on the same side that the shooter's face would be nuzzled against when laying down with the weapon, like a cheek plate.

http://webzoom.freewebs.com/precisionrifle/RhinoWEBSTK%20006.jpg

http://www.depot53.com/reviews/Adjustable%20Parts%20-%20Stock%202%20Smaller.jpg

[ae.]

reminds me of something from killzone!

i like the high-poly not much of a gun nut so i cant really say anything about the design.

[Valandar]

Revolvers lose LOTS of power and thus range because of the gas spillage - NOT something a good sniper rifle would have. That's a lot of waste gasses spewing right on you that could better serve you helping to push the round downrange.

Practicality aside, it looks good!

[Disting]

I agree with the comments on the functionality. Totally. Been questioning the design of it myself while working on it, but I prefer to look at it as something that just looks cool, and isn't very relistic.

sir-knight: I will think about the cheek plate and see how it looks. Thanks for the advice!

Functionality aside, glad you think it looks good. :)

[Tumerboy]

cool design, but uh. . .ya:
http://www.jesseshunting.com/photopost/data/539/1844Freedom_Arms_454_Casull_in_action.jpg

Also, the revolver would be well. . .revolving, right where my cheek was, so every time I fired, it would be pinching my cheek into the gun. . .

Another big complaint about bullpups is loading. Soldiers like to be able to reload without taking their rifle away from their shoulder. This is difficult enough with current bullpup designs, but with this design, I have to fully disengage the gun, disassemble part of the stock, reload, and after all of that, I only have 6 shots before I have to reload again.

I think your technical work on it is great though, thumbs up!

[Valandar]

Another big complaint about bullpups is loading. Soldiers like to be able to reload without taking their rifle away from their shoulder. This is difficult enough with current bullpup designs, but with this design, I have to fully disengage the gun, disassemble part of the stock, reload, and after all of that, I only have 6 shots before I have to reload again.

I think your technical work on it is great though, thumbs up!

Not as much a problem with sniper rifles. Many of them are actually single shot bolt action, even nowadays.

[Tumerboy]

True, but that just means it shoots and you have to rack the action before you can fire again. Even "single shot bolt action" rifles have magazines (though many are only 5 rounds as well)

[Mark Dygert]

Looks great!

Crits:
- I take it this is a FPS weapon, what will it look like from that point of view? That's important to take into account when doing weapons for games.
- The front part look kind of like a stand, which I think is almost mandatory on sniper rifles? But it doesn't look like is actually functional? Could be a chance to pack in some more delicious sub-d detail.
- The grip might need some redesign, it doesn't look that comfortable, or like it could be used in a laying down position.

Looking great tho, some good sub-d detail. Looking forward to more!

[Valandar]

With a sniper rifle, if you have to shoot twice, you've f'd up. One shot, one kill, yannow. :D Any more than that and you give away your position.

[Tumerboy]

With a sniper rifle, if you have to shoot twice, you've f'd up. One shot, one kill, yannow. :D Any more than that and you give away your position.

LOL so you're saying that all long rifles should have their magazines removed? That's retarded. Just because I have multiple rounds in a magazine doesn't mean I'm going to use them all at once. . . but it sure is nice knowing they're there if I need them.

As for you Vig! WTF do you think you're doing coming in here and cluttering this thread up with actually useful information for the OP?!

[Rokkx]

The forearm of your rifle looks awkward to hold while firing. It looks very uncomfortable.
But your HP really does look great :thumbup:

[Disting]

Been looking over some different solutions on the design.
I will add a stand to it. I've made a mockup of it, and I will model it tomorrow when I have time!
Also, I will see what I can do about the cheek cover. :)

Thank you all for your comments!

[Medestruit]

Not as much a problem with sniper rifles. Many of them are actually single shot bolt action, even nowadays.

Indeed. Also, to add to the ejection issue, most scout snipers wear gunney gloves(trigger finger cut out on their trigger hand) and when firing a round and releasing the bolt, they grab the casing with their non-trigger hand after the bolt ejection pushes the casing out slightly. So the issue of the gasses/heat in your face isn't so much an issue because your hand blocks most of that when you pull the casing.

[Sandbag]

I don't want to sound harsh but maybe you should consider just dumping this gun and moving on to a new design. The entire thing is so impractical that trying to fix it is going to take so many changes that you might as well start over with something that makes sense from the get-go.

The modeling looks nice with controlled clean surfaces, so it would be great to see that applied to a more logically sound design. If you're finding designing a gun from the ground up difficult I would recommend working on a few real guns or creating a new gun out of parts of other guns to get your feet wet.

A good understanding of the core mechanics of a gun can go a long way to making a cool design far easier to come up with; much like drawing a skeleton or a frame first, sketching the pose, and then creating a character based on that in stead of trying from scratch without a study of form and anatomy.

[BradMyers82]

I don't know much about guns so I can't comment on the design but I do really dig the high poly work there.
I'm curious, how did you model all the round holes on the barel there?
Is it a simple boolean, on a subdivided mesh, because I don't imagine you modeled all of those holes right?

[Disting]

I don't know much about guns so I can't comment on the design but I do really dig the high poly work there.
I'm curious, how did you model all the round holes on the barel there?
Is it a simple boolean, on a subdivided mesh, because I don't imagine you modeled all of those holes right?

Thank you for the kind words!
I actually modeled all the holes. :) Took me a few minutes, but I think it was worth it!

Also, thought I'd post the concept here, in case I didn't make it clear in the first post that I'm working from a concept made by Michael Kingery (http://www.michaelkingery.com/). :)

http://www.michaelkingery.com/industrialdesign/files/collage_lb_image_page12_6_1.png

[Tumerboy]

Disting, ignore all of us gun nuts and functionality experts. While the design is impractical, the design ISN'T yours. I say just finish up this piece, and then deal with functionality on the next one. You've done a fine job staying true to the concept and making it look great, just keep rolling with it.

[timwiese]

This gun isn't practical at all. How is it ever going to fire if it's not even real?

I will never post another gun on this forum, too many gun nuts that ignore the great art just to prove they know how a gun should work.

Anyways, I think this is looking bad ass, it stays very true to the concept art. Keep up the good work!

[Mark Dygert]

With a sniper rifle, if you have to shoot twice, you've f'd up. One shot, one kill, yannow. :D Any more than that and you give away your position. Some times you have more then one target to deal with, or you're left to watch/guard a entrance, who knows who or how many are coming in or out. Sometimes you have to shoot something to get someone out in the open, like their buddy or a car.

I remember talking about clips on sniper rifles with a buddy of mine who went through marine sniper school. He said the important rule was, never shoot twice from the same location, but take as many shots as you need to make sure its not going to shoot back. Of course we where drunk and I think he was joking but maybe not.

[Tumerboy]

Nope, that's definitely the proper attitude for a real sniper.

[Sandbag]

It's not your design but you did choose it, so in a sense you do have to own the concept in that right, it's not really a great reason to excuse that kind of thing.

You obviously didn't waste your time, you've crafted a nice model from a technical standpoint and any time anyone does that you'll always walk away with more knowledge that you started with. I don't mean to say start over because this gun is worthless, rather the opposite, it was a good learning experience. You saw design issues inherent in the concept and now you'll be better equipped to avoid them in the future.

That's why I say take this knowledge and move forward to a new piece. Sure, it couldn't hurt to make a low and unwrap it if you could use practice with that process, but I really wouldn't push it to the finish line because the problems it has would handicap it greatly as a portfolio piece.

Timwise - dont be such a baby.

[sir-knight]

I will never post another gun on this forum, too many gun nuts that ignore the great art just to prove they know how a gun should work.

I don't think anyone is ignoring the quality of the technical drawing or the implementation of design and how accurate the 3d is to the design. In fact I think he nailed it pretty good.

You have a bunch of guys who are borderline if not completely OCD when it comes to attention to detail because for most of us, it's our job. Artists have to design believable worlds and props that people can relate to and see in use, otherwise we'd be sucking at what we do.

The other guys have summed it up pretty well. I shouldn't need to type more... even though I want to :B

[MKingery]

don't listen to them disting, there is NOTHING wrong with this gun concept! solid as a rock in my unbiased opinion ;)

btw, i shat myself when i saw it. very well realized, superb job

[se7ered]

i know the horse is dead and i should put my stick away..but i have to be honest...i don't like the concept...looks awkward to hold and i'm not sure how it would work...where is the firing pin?..in the butt of the gun?...and the design has the bullets path traveling almost right on top of the hole for the thumb...i'm just one of those picky ones...your model is solid tho and i'd still like to see it textured

[Disting]

Thank you all guys for your time and comments!
Seems most of you like the model but don't like the functionality, and some say it won't work in my portfolio even if it looks good.
So now I'm kinda stumped. I really like this model, but I don't know what to do now.
Leave it, or make a new model.

I'll be thinking.

[glib]

You have a bunch of guys who are borderline if not completely OCD when it comes to attention to detail because for most of us, it's our job. Artists have to design believable worlds and props that people can relate to and see in use, otherwise we'd be sucking at what we do.

You're talking to people who make games where a plumber jumps on mushrooms that have eyes to kill them. Games where you have forearm-length rocketlaunchers that magically fire 50 rockets in a row. Railguns. Shrinkrays. Nailguns. Hand-held nuke launchers.

I would rather have my art judged on its artist merit (ie. silouette is boring in first-person view, lacking detail in the middle section), how close it is to concept (ie. if you're really looking to hit that concept, this part is a bit off, it should be longer.. etc), and how good/cool it looks. If you're handed a concept at work, you're expected to make it look good in game, not debate the finer points of sniper etiquette with your AD. If this were of the OP's own design, then I think the design would be up for critique.

As it is, the first thing that popped into my head when I saw this piece was: cool, a revolver sniper rifle with the spinny-bit in the stock. That's different, and would have cool-looking firing and reload animations.

[TheWinterLord]

Try making your own concept, hey maybe you can use some parts you already created in this piece, paste them in and complete :P

Go into each part and see how their real life counter parts actually work (somewhat). look at pictures with people holding rifles, ask if they could as easily handle yours, add what is needed. In this concept if you fire the gun maybe your hair will go on fire because of the explosion is close to where your head is. I dunno :P

Well modeled, good luck deciding what to do now.

[tadpole3159]

you cant comment on the practicality of this gun and get shirty when he tells you to shut up. this place is for discussing art in an effort to improve our selfs. not a place to tell people off for modelling a gun before they know if its practical.

you lot need to realise how much you taking out of this guy. comments like "start over" would really upset me and i can see how much effort he has put into this gun and its a real shame your slamming this guy over the design of his gun and only looking at how well its modelled in the foot note of your messages.

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/854/854308/wipeout-hd-20080222014447397.jpg

see this. its a floating car. should should i stop playing wipeout because a floating cars impracticable and death racing might hurt? they by no means explain how its floating. we accept it works because we see its works.

this gun looks like a gun, its got a trigger, a long metal tube thing and a scope so its safe to assume its a sniper rifle. no questioning needed

take a step back and try to realise why your here people

[Bulls_eye]

nice modeling

[tremulant]

hey dude nice model, and very translation from concept to 3d. I would say ignore anyone who tells you to stop. I agree with Gilb, this thing would have some really cool animations, and I thought the same thing---the revolver mechanism looks really cool.

Whenever you get someone who spends to much time in any one area, they start to obsess over things ---and suck the life out of anything that doesnt fit their mold.

And cmon guys---We make games!! They are supposed to be fantastical and impractical--that's part of the reason that they are fun!

good work. the end.

[frubes]

I remember the cerebal bore from Turok. No one complained when that thing chased you and sucked out your brains. Infact its my all time favourite weapon.

Nice clean modelling and well done for staying true to the design. Good job :)

[Valandar]

Practicality aside, it looks good!

I admit, the design of the weapon made me go "Huh?", but the execution was, indeed, quite well done.

[Disting]

Thanks guys! I really appreciate your help and kind words!
I made some small changes, tweaking, added some details and added a stand.
Please let me know what you think. :)

http://i42.tinypic.com/fkr3ah.jpg

[glib]

It would be nice to see the stand flare out in more of a wide-stance triangle shape. I like the hinge you built in for it, so maybe adding a little bent piece in the rail that it's mounted to would allow it to rotate outward a bit?

Definitely don't start over, this is worth finishing.

[Disting]

It would be nice to see the stand flare out in more of a wide-stance triangle shape. I like the hinge you built in for it, so maybe adding a little bent piece in the rail that it's mounted to would allow it to rotate outward a bit?

Definitely don't start over, this is worth finishing.

Thank you!
I tried making it more spread out, and it did look really, really good. However, it didn't fit when it was retracted. :P
So I compromised a bit by just spreading it a little bit.
I could try and design something that would allow it to spread out though. I'm kinda puzzled though.

[Joao Sapiro]

i would add more details in the parts that are seen in first person, such as the scope and the pieces around , you have a clean shape there play around with it :)

and who the hell dares mention turok armory ?! i was just thinking about where i could find turok 2 just to see the awesome guns and someone drops it here ?!

[tadpole3159]

So I compromised a bit by just spreading it a little bit.
I could try and design something that would allow it to spread out though. I'm kinda puzzled though.
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/M107/M107.gif
on this picture the hinge is at an angle allowing the legs to close together. would that work?

[Disting]

I can't view the image tadpole. Can you upload it somewhere?

[tadpole3159]

http://harrisbipods.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/harrisbipod.gif
see angled hinge

[Medestruit]

Sure you can. When you open the link, just click enter in your URL bar and it'll show the image. I think really though for you to be able to flare them out where it looks right, you might need to bulge the railing the legs fold into slight around the hinges to allow adequate room for those 15-30 degree angles.

[Mark Dygert]

I really like what you're doing, now you're taking the concept and building on it in a good way. It looks great from the FPS perspective a lot of sub-d detail pops out nicely, really good work.

Whoever designed the gun didn't take the FPS POV into account, it looks like they kind of tried to consider it too late with the lower right drawing? But didn't let its lack of detail or hidden detail influence the overall design. One of the unique features (revolver clip) will be buried off camera, totally not your fault but it underscores the fact that FPS weapons need to be designed not from the side but from the FPS pov. That happens quite a bit too. But wait what about the model viewed from other players pers? The arms and hands will do a good job of covering this, you might be able to do some kind great reload animation, but at that point its going to be missed most of the time.

I think Johny has a good idea about breaking up the form of the scope. I really like the hinge detail and I think it adds some good detail to a bit of blank spot, probably more so when its retracted? But the stand/tripod needs to rotate around single point so it can swivel around in other direction.

HOWEVER since this is a FPS sniper weapon you get to take advantage of the fact anytime the player is in a position that they would technically need to put the stand down, they'll be zoomed in. (The door, it swings both ways!) So I don't think you need to actually have it out and functional and I wouldn't suggest anyone waste bones by animating it. Retracted and always adding eye candy is perfectly fine.

Ideally for future weapons, and when picking out or redesigning concepts, its probably good to keep this stuff in mind. If you think we're picky wait until the real gun nuts start playing the game, then the sh!t storm happens.

[Disting]

Thank you all so much for all the comments and feedback! I can't thank you enough. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me with this!
I'll have an update for tonight hopefully. :)

[Tumerboy]

Np, just make it badass!

[Ghostscape]

Keeping the independent telescoping bits level seems like it'd be awkward - have you tried putting a grip that runs between them, so the sniper can just reach forward and yank downwards to pull the bipod out? Seems like it would make for a cool animation. Altneratively you could make it swing out (since telescoping stuff doesn't look like it holds much weight) and have it pivot to tuck under the barrel, inbetween the bars.

I'd like to see an eye-cup for the lens, too, to keep it from getting scratched as easily and to keep the user from accidentally blinding themselves :)

[MoP]

Pretty cool so far, I like the concept and idea (thanks for your unbiased opinion, MKingery ;) ) ... definitely you could push the silhouette of the sights especially in the firstperson view, it's a really bland area right now that is just crying out for interesting mid-level detail (scooped cutouts, panel insets, anything!).

[Disting]

Thanks for all the feedback!
I've made some changes some of you asked for, and I'm quite happy with it! :)
I made a new stand, added some details to the FPS view and did some general tweaking of various areas.
http://i39.tinypic.com/29nusr8.jpg

[tadpole3159]

loving the details on the stand, looks like i could reach out and touch it :)

[ae.]

the stand looks great compared to the older version keep going make this gun your own!

[Disting]

Made a few changed. You think it's better or worse?
http://www.nextgenhardsurface.com/images/Render3.jpg

[Disting]

Ok, I think I'm done with the highpoly.
Time to start working on the lowpoly now I guess.
http://www.nextgenhardsurface.com/images/Render4.jpg

[jayoplus]

Nice Work, Wiktor.

[BradMyers82]

Wow, your high poly work here is very well done! I can't wait to see the low poly and textures.

[Mark Dygert]

Beautiful, Awesome work! Nice detail on the scope and on the end of the barrel, great presentation too!

[Tumerboy]

looks great man, nice work.

[Disting]

Thank you guys! Glad you like it, and thanks for the feedback on the highpoly! :)

[[HP]]

I'm curious to see how are you going to do the LP for this! :) Make sure you finish this one, it's looking pretty nice! good luck.

[Jeremy Lindstrom]

this is why I don't post gun models. :D Fucking gun nazi's... Good work. :)

[EbolaV]

maaan i love snipers and that one looks pretty cool. personally i think the scope a bit to huge :P

Dekard: hehe your right, all those "it had to be perfectly like that... look how it is functional with that piece and ... and ... and..." :)

[Mark Dygert]

Getting people to think about good thoughtful real world, functional design isn't really a bad thing. It's one thing to make something that looks badass, and its another to make something badass that's functional.

As someone who continually cleans up messes of people who don't ever think about motion or function I have to say its kind of nice when someone does take it all into account.

AD: Why doesn't this do XYZ?
Animator: It wasn't modeled to do that.
AD: Kick it back or fix it yourself, either way it needs to do XYZ.
Animator: So mr modeler you need to fix your model.
Modeler: I can't, I'm too busy glazing my balls in caramel.
Animator: Yea hi honey I'm going to be late again I have to redo a bunch of candy nuts work.

[EbolaV]

oh damn Vig now im feeling bad. lot of edits :D yeah your are surely right but i read "gun nazi's" and thought about people which want to have it incredible correct hrhr. Its better when i shut up :), i feel bit sick today so excuse am off ;(

[Jeremy Lindstrom]

Yeah I don't have a problem at all with real world functional designs in any way, if this was a production house it would have hopefully been kicked back in the concept stage instead he grabbed a concept he liked and modeled it to the concept very well. This is polycount. :) But yes I agree, sucks having to fix other peoples work.

[[HP]]

Hey, as long as it looks cool... right?

[torontoanimator]

Im really liking this rifle :) the only real critique i can give is that it really doesnt have that real feeling to me, it looks really really artificial. I think if you textured it you could make it look way more realistic, great job though!

[Ghostscape]

One tiny nit-pick - you've got a seam running halfway through the casing of each round, that makes the bullet look kind of odd - you might want to remove that seam so the round looks more like a regular round. Adding that seam there makes the shell look a lot less solid.

[sir-knight]

it does look bitchin'- aside from the practicality points that have been mentioned and argued. :D

[s0id3]

Wow, great modeling, though the guns functionality and concept make absolutely no sense..

[Orgoth02]

I have to agree with sOid3. This is a nice model but functionality of the weapon is not believeable. I dont see how the bullets are getting to the barrel from the back of the gun like that. But non-the less good job

[Tumerboy]

Blah, functionality has been beaten to death on this gun already, move on.

[Andreas]

Fuctionality was 'beaten to death' in the first place by the great design. This gun is a great concept, that's the bottom line. Remember EQ's gun with the ejection slot facing 45 degrees the wrong way?

[oobersli]

ya. seriously... who gives a damn if it doesn't make sense. it looks cool. the whole gun nut attitude is a headache. Try giving him some useful crits or comments instead of showing off your gun knowledge uberness/douchebaggery. :)

ne ways, my only crit is the flat metal connecting the scope looks a tad thin compared to the concept. But overall its a pretty good job. hope to see this finished and textured. :)

[Andreas]

Exactly. Nobody gives a shit if someone knows how the name of every pin and spring in a gun. No one is going to impressed; scared, yes, but not impressed.

How many tris you aiming for with this Disting? I say do it justice and go for 10K (or more).

[Disting]

How many tris you aiming for with this Disting? I say do it justice and go for 10K (or more).
I'm aiming for 11'000. :)

[[HP]]

Speaking of which, without wanting to go too much OT here, what's the average poly count for a weapon on this gen's games? Like Crysis and UT3?
(On screen weapons, not level items or enemies weapons)

Just asking, cos damn, 11k sounds alot to me!

[Sandbag]

it's funny how feverishly people will hate on logical gun design critiques when everyone is happy to jump on messed up anatomy, broken limb deformation, or muddy sculpting forms. I fail to see how this is any different.

It's not like this is a caricature of a gun, no one would complain about the functionality of the gun(s) from Earthworm Jim or Metal Slug because they are presented in a fiction-first (and also cartoony) fashion.

This gun is presented in a realistic fashion - attempting realism with shapes, rendering, object construction etc, as well as presumably materials/textures next; so it only seems logical to expect it to continue to conform to realistic design as well.

[vj_box]

nice hi poly work flow here,i kinda doubt the barrel design,usually barrels are lengthier in sniper rifles,is nt it? and the bullets are not really matching the barrel there i guess.

Vj

[Ghostscape]

it's funny how feverishly people will hate on logical gun design critiques when everyone is happy to jump on messed up anatomy, broken limb deformation, or muddy sculpting forms. I fail to see how this is any different.

It's not like this is a caricature of a gun, no one would complain about the functionality of the gun(s) from Earthworm Jim or Metal Slug because they are presented in a fiction-first (and also cartoony) fashion.

This gun is presented in a realistic fashion - attempting realism with shapes, rendering, object construction etc, as well as presumably materials/textures next; so it only seems logical to expect it to continue to conform to realistic design as well.

Honestly, outside of the revolver cylinder spewing hot gasses all over your armpit/cheek, which is a conceit I think everyone is cool with making, I don't see what the issue is. The big complaint to make with any gun is making sure the ejection port, ammo feed, and barrel all line up, and it looks like they do, or at least well enough from a FPS perspective.

I think gun anatomy crits are valid but there isn't anything about the design that looks like bad anatomy.

[CerealDemon1]

very nice work
i like the design as well
Its very unique