3d Worn Down Glass Floor Material Needed

[Talbot]

Hi everyone,
I'm looking for some help on making a material for a worn down glass floor. I would like to make it look like many people have walked over it. I have tried to find pictures of what I'm looking for but at the moment I have not come across any. I will keep looking for some references to give people a better idea of what I'm looking for.

Also I don't really want someone to just give me a file. I would like a link to a detailed tutorial(s) or someone to write detailed steps on how to do it. I just would like to have the knowledge of how to make it instead of just applying something that is already made.

Thanks.

[Eric Chadwick]

Flickr: "Glass Floor" serves up many many more like this.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/22/26678382_ef6af15b4c_b.jpg

[Eric Chadwick]

A simple way to repro this would be to make a bitmap of 1-pixel scratches, sneaker smears, scuffs, etc. and use that as a mask for a blurred version of what's behind the glass.

[Talbot]

Umm I'm going to need a little bit more information on how to do this. Perhaps you could send me a link to a tutorial that explains how to take an image like this into a texture.

I'm sorry I just don't have the knowledge needed to do it with this image.

[Tumerboy]

you don't use the image he posted. Except as referrence. You use a 1 px brush, and draw a bunch of scratches (black & white) and use that painted texture as a mask for a blurred version of what's behind the glass. (Don't ask me how to do that last part, just repeating Eric. Eric, explain that last part :P )

[Kawe]

What are you making this in?
Can you make normal glass? Do you know how normal glass works?

I'm very sure you won't be able to find any tutorials. So if you really want to do this you better start trying to think about the problem yourself. What makes scratched glass different from normal glass? In normal glass what matters most is transparency and reflections so... how did both of these change?

In the above image the really badly scratched parts don't seem "transparent" anymore but they are still letting light through but it's all jumbled and produces really bright white lights. The less scratched areas are still transparent but it gets more blurry cause light isn't passing through as straight as before... tbh I don't think there's that much blur.

Then in this image there's multi-layered glass so they produce mirror images off each others too. Very apparent in the upper area of the image.

Also note that the scratched areas would reflect light differently since they have a different angle.

So the question is...what part of this are you trying to reproduce? Everything? I assume you're trying to get this into a game engine, right?

Does it support reflections?

Easiest way to fake this is just to somehow map those bright scratches onto normal glass and make them shine up depending on the camera angle as well as what's behind the glass.

[Eric Chadwick]

Blurred version would depend on the engine & toolset. If it was a cubemap or bitmap behind the glass, then simply a lower mip of that. If it was geometry, then a low-res render from the same angle.

[Talbot]

So here is the scene I'm applying the texture to.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/glass.png?t=1219612128


I'm not putting this into a game but at the same time I'm making it so it could be. I was the glass to be semi-transparent and be blurred to show a worn down look. I also want their to be scratches. I don't want to render what's behind the glass and make a mask because I would like it to look good from all angles.

I hope this gives you enough information for what I'm looking for.

I just bought a tablet today so I think it will be fun to make the scratches.

Thanks.

[Eric Chadwick]

So then you could use the scratches in the opacity map (white scratches on gray), and make the diffuse be mottled greenish-white (or whatever color you want the glass to be).

Make sure you find good reference though, or it will surely look like crap. If you don't have a good idea of what real glass should look like, you won't be able to repro it well at all.

[Talbot]

Ok thanks for help I have one question left. And it sounds easy but I don't know how to make realistic scratches in Photoshop. I have made 1px brush strokes with a tablet but there is no fade on the ends. I just got my tablet today so I don't know how to add pressure variation to brushes. I think this would help make the scratches look better so if you could tell me how to do this that would be great. Thanks!

[Rob Galanakis]

Good glass is one of the more difficult surfaces you can make, because it is 90% shader and material and has so little to do with actual texture or detailed maps. You are obviously at the start of your learning journey, why throw such a wrench as scratched glass into the mix? Don't use glass, use another material that will be more straightforward to create. Creating this glass is going to be a giant headache, for a crappy result, and you are going to learn very little because all the concepts behind glass require foundations you have yet to learn. Start with something simpler, and once you can create other believable surfaces, then move on to scratched glass.

[Talbot]

Well could you take a look at my scene and a suggestion on what I should replace the glass with? Thanks.

[Tumerboy]

standard, slotted, metal grating.
http://www.mcnichols.com/products/grating/images/plank/pics/big_plankandfiller.jpg

[Eric Chadwick]

For the fading strokes, read up on the options in the Brushes palette in Photoshop.

[sir-knight]

I would go with tummerboy's solution, for the location, a metal grate is much more believable as access paneling.

[Eric Chadwick]

Yeah to be clear, I'm not advocating the glass either, the grates are probably a better idea. Why would they have glass there? And why would it be scratched?

As Adam puts it in his article, the story is important. Right now I don't see your environment's story.
http://www.adambromell.com/articles/article3.html

[Talbot]

Well I wanted it to be more of a futuristic but worn down feeling...

So to make a grate do I basically make a plane and remove faces. Then add a bumpmap to give a more 3d feel?

[Eric Chadwick]

No, you'll probably want to use opacity for the holes. Just make the mesh a single quad, and make a high-res mesh to get the normal map and opacity map.

[sir-knight]

Well I wanted it to be more of a futuristic but worn down feeling...


I was thinking that too, but you need some contrast with all the 'smoother' surfaces you have there, a grate would add some nice real world texture to the scene. There's plenty of other things that you can add to make it futuristic. Just think about the aliens movies or the original star trek movies, those sets were futuristic but very functional, gritty and cold, not many glass walls or floors in those settings. Reference your favorite movies and build from there.

Also think about where that panel is if it were glass, it's sort of out of any sort of high traffic area, so why would there be scratches on it? I'm not much of an environment modeler (or 3d artist at all quite yet) but I think you need to consider the ergonomics of the scene, does putting that piece of glass there suit a function to the people that live in that world and does the look/texture you are going for suit it's use?

[Tumerboy]

ya, the geo you have in your scene is already fine, just do as Eric says, make a high poly, tilable geo, and render that down to a tilable texture you can apply to the whole strip.

As for the glass, the big question here is, Why?! Even in the future, WHY would they want this panel to be glass? What advantages would it actually give, over a metal grate (or something else?). As far as I can see, it would overall be a bigger disadvantage than advantage. It's more likely to break, it's probably harder to get into (for an access panel, that's bad), and unless that whole slot is filled with a pressurized liquid/gas there's no reason it would need to be air tight but visible. (i.e. it could be covered completely, or could be a grate)

That's not to say you SHOULDN'T do glass, if that's what you really want, but you should always have a reason for doing something like that. As Eric pointed out, there's no story here. If you're going to do glass, you need to come up with a story about WHY it's glass. And that story has to be apparent in your image, not just something you can explain to us. You should never have to explain something in your work like that. If someone has to ask, and you have to stop, and say, "Well, this is glass because. . . " you've already lost.

[Talbot]

Thanks for the help everyone.

Sir-knight:
You brought up a point about the smooth floor. When I first did a render that is something that I noticed but didn't bother with right then. Do you know why there is the shading in the floor?

Eric:
Sorry I really feel like an idiot but could you be a little bit more specific?

I just want to say thanks to everyone for baring with my lack of skill. I'm not taking a class on this so basically everything I know is either self-taught or you guys teach me. So I'm sorry if I keep asking you to be more specific but really... you guys are the only ones that can help me.

[Tumerboy]

Talbot, don't worry, we've all been there, so as long as we see you making progress, and not being a sassy bitch, you should do fine :P

The set up he's talking about, you will make a texture, with metal in the RGB channels. You will add an Alpha channel in Photoshop, then you'll fill it with white, and where you want holes (to see through) you'll fill with black.

Hope that makes sense. . .

[Eric Chadwick]

Well what I really meant is for you to model a high-poly version of the grate, complete with bevels and bumps, and holes where you want them to be. Then when you bake a normal map from it, you can also bake the opacity map.

Normal maps for hard-surface items are usually best baked from geometry, instead of being made wholly in Photoshop.

You should really learn high-poly modeling skills if you want to create normal-mapped environment pieces.

[Talbot]

Before I really try to understand that last post I need to ask a question that I should have asked a long time ago. What are normal maps? I'm going to google it now but I would still like to here you explain it. Thanks :)

Also, do you think it would be best to watch some more tutorials for a couple days before I continue this project? I just feel like I bit off more than I could chew and I should catch up and come back to it later.

[Eric Chadwick]

Naw, the best way to learn is to do.

http://wiki.polycount.net/Normal_Map

[Tumerboy]

Sorry Eric, I was just simplifying the whole thing. I agree wholeheartedly in baking for normal/opacity. I just wasn't sure if he was confused on that, or on the use of alpha in the first place.

[Talbot]

Ok thanks. I am sort of seeing what it is. Mainly I recognize that look and style from a lot of games. Before I ask how to make them, I'm would like to know the difference between a normal map and a bump map. I think I can tell the two apart when I look at renders so maybe this question will be answered when you tell me how to make them.

A couple days ago someone recommended XNormal to me. Maybe when you explain how to make normal maps you can include this (that is assuming you know about xNormal).

Thanks. :)

[Talbot]

Tumerboy:
I do understand how you were suggesting I should make the grate with the Alpha channels but here is another really easy question that I should know the answer to but I don't. I have heard the term baking a lot whenever I'm cruising through polycount. Does it just mean compile or make? or something completely different? Thanks again! ;)

[Eric Chadwick]

Sounds like you haven't read that wiki page. Should clear up a lot of questions, and stimulate some more too. In fact I'm curious what questions you come up with after reading it, might help me improve it.

A normal map is a type of bump map. Another kind of bump map is a gray image where the bright parts are bumped out, dark parts are bumped in, this is usually called a height map or an elevation map.

There are many methods for using a height map as a bump map, but normal maps are used the most often in games because they tend to look better than height maps.

[Talbot]

I'm sorry I did start to read it but it was a lot :P. I'm horrible at reading large amounts like that.

And actually every time I try and explain what I got confused on, I go back to the wiki page and find the answer. :P I really feel like an idiot but I guess it comes with being horrible at understanding large amounts of text like that.

So basically I feel like I understand how bumpmaps are just up and down on the surface and normal maps are up and down but also sort of side to side and angled... now I know why I could never understand it from reading it, because I'm having trouble explaining it my own words. But I think I understand them now.

And now I'm feeling like everytime you tell how to do something I have a question on how to do a part of the original "how to do" :P. I'm just going to continue with my question and not try and reowrd that last sentence. But I need some help with how to make a high poly model of a grate. And I really feel like this is turning into a sort of tutorial in it's self but like I have said before... I'm learning a lot from this and hopefully my next project will go smoother.

[Eric Chadwick]

It's all cool. You're tackling a bunch of difficult subjects, but they're things that many of us have had to learn ourselves (and are still learning).

High-poly modeling for normal mapping is another big subject. Check out the Environment Modeling section here on the wiki.
http://wiki.polycount.net/CategoryEnvironment

Don't give up though, take it in small doses, keep moving forward. You're going in the right direction.

[Eric Chadwick]

Oh, and I'm finally getting back to editing the Normal Map page on the wiki, so you might see some sections change a little. More pics, less text, that kind of thing.

[Talbot]

http://www.eriding.net/media/photos/art/textures/040521_cbrown_mp_art_tex_road_grate.jpg

So how would you go about doing I high poly model of this?

My first thought would to create a box and than extrude all the faces (except the top and bottom) twice and repeat the process on the second extrude until, 2 hours later, I have the size I want and than make it into a sub div. But there has to be an easier way... right?

[Talbot]

OH and I like how this went from a texturing to a modeling thread... :)

[Tumerboy]

So, Eric, in the interest of taking baby steps here, might I suggest Talbot try some basic height & Normal map creation (in Photoshop, xNormal, CrazyBump, and/or Nvidia Filter)?

Once he has a better understanding of the basics of how normal maps work, THEN try the high poly model bake.

I'm going to proceed as if we all agree :P

So, Height based Bump maps are just that, height. Black is low, White is High. Try making a basic height map in Photoshop. Just paint the whole thing medium grey (128, 128, 128 ) and then paint some black and white shapes around. Take that into Max or Maya, apply it to the Bump Channel of your material, put it on an object, and render it, and see how it looks.

Once you see how that works, get xNormal, CrazyBump, or the Nvidia Filter, and use your original height map you made, to generate a normal map. (I highly recommend picking up CrazyBump. It's $100 for a student license I think, but totally worth it.)

See how the maps differ, and then try the same process of applying it to your object and see what it does differently.

Chances are, in your render you won't see a difference. The main difference is in how game engines use them. Bump maps in the engines I've used, mainly showed up where specular highlights were. So edges that would catch spec would show up, and thus, show off your bump map. Normal maps in the engines I've used, have been far better, in that they will catch diffuse light, not just specular highlights. So you can see that detail without having everything be specular.

__________________________________________________ ____


Basic Normals info: Every polygon has a normal. This is an imaginary line that points in the direction the polygon (triangle) faces. It is perpendicular to the face.

If you have two triangles next to each other, with smoothing off, you will see how each face points in a different direction. Smoothing attempts to blur those two normal directions to point the same way, so you don't get a hard seam between the two polygons.

Normal Maps, take that original height map info, and attempt to generate a normal PER PIXEL, rather than per face of the object. That's why you can what looks like a lot more polygonal detail on an object than is actually there.

The term Baking refers mainly to taking one thing (usually a high poly object) and transfering information to another thing (usually a low poly object) So in this instance, Eric was saying to model a high poly grate, then Bake out the normals (to a normal map) and use that on a low poly grate. That way, you'll have a low poly grate, that LOOKS like it's got the detail of the high poly grate.

[Talbot]

I was sort of working on a bumpmap project on the side before I started this post.

http://www.iamtalbot.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/crates2.png

I basically just made the texture map greyscale and applied it as a bump map. The map is very big (1024x1024) but I was really just practicing so I didn't really feel I needed to go back and do it over with a small texture.


Here is the model:

http://www.iamtalbot.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/ddfgdfg.png

I don't really want to make a high poly crate showing all the bumps.

But I did get the Next Texturing Tutorial from eat3d about a week or two ago. So maybe I should finish that and if I have end up having questions on that I should start a thread with the questions I have when going through it? Then people in my position can have an easy place to find answers instead of in a thread that started out as worndown glass texturing help.

I'll start watching that in the meantime.

[sir-knight]

mmmm normal maps.... bump maps on steroids...

I've been working on 3d for a while now in my spare time, and I'm still not bothering with normal maps. I figure I still need stronger foundations in texturing, proper topology for good deformation, economic modelling and generally just get faster in my work flow.

Of course... my computer at home is about 6 generations behind and can barely run any sort of normal map game... that has a bit to do with me not getting to them quite yet. :P

[Eric Chadwick]

So maybe I should finish that and if I have end up having questions on that I should start a thread with the questions I have when going through it? Then people in my position can have an easy place to find answers instead of in a thread that started out as worndown glass texturing help.

There's already a thread for this...
The ultimate be-all end-all normal mapping thread (http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=48305)

[Talbot]

Eric: how would I go about creating a high poly model of the grate that I inserted a couple posts ago?

[Jonathan]

Eric: how would I go about creating a high poly model of the grate that I inserted a couple posts ago?


(1) Model the main shapes, then you "support" the shapes with extra edges (I often selection the ring of edges, use the "Connect" tool in Edge mode in 3DS Max, have the connects on 2, with a spacing between 85-95 depending on the object (not sure how well this description will transfer in text, but I'm too tired this evening to post pictures of it). Either way, what you're doing is just supporting the edges either via extra edge loops (what I prefer) or via chamfering an edge, but this can get messy fast.

(2) Then you can create the low-poly, or modify the original, unsmoothed/sub-divided mesh you worked on earlier, only keeping those edges which give form to the shape.

Then you'd use the "Projection" tool in Max to bake the normals information from the high-poly to the low-poly.

As for bump maps (I think this is an acceptable and terse explanation, someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), normal maps replace the normals information of the low-poly, whereas bump maps only perturb the normals of the low-poly. Normal maps hold 3 values, whereas bump maps are only up or down, basically. So normal maps can show forms nicely, bump maps just add subtle surface detail.

[Talbot]

I made this using the lattice tool on a plane. Then Subdiv it.

http://www.iamtalbot.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/grate2.jpg

I know it isn't the exact grate that I wanted above but I think it would work. What do you think?

[Eric Chadwick]

The result isn't clean, there are better ways to do this, but this way is really quick. Go here to learn more about subdivision-surface modeling (http://wiki.polycount.net/Subdivision_Surface_Modeling).

http://ericchadwick.com/examples/images/subdivision_grate.gif

[Talbot]

Thanks! I'm about almost done and will finish it tonight. I ran out of time because I need to go to work. I'll post a render when I'm done.

[Kawe]

holy hell. that's some badass gif image :)

[Talbot]

Yeah tell me about it...

[Talbot]

Is it just me but selecting the edges for the second chamfer takes a very long time. I am making a larger grate but I mean... I selected edges for like 45 min last night and I don't even have all of them yet. Is there some trick to selecting edges that I'm not aware of?

[Eric Chadwick]

See the blue icon that has a dotted box and a black ball inside it? If you turn that on, dragging the selection marquee will only select edges completely encompassed by the marquee. The default mode instead selects all edges that cross the marquee.

You can see my dragging the marquee on the right side there. I missed some edges though, became obvious when I chamferred with the sub-division on.

[Talbot]

haha :P I knew about that but for some reason I didn't think of how much it could help when doing this.

I just realized I didn't chamfer all of the vertical edges to the extrude. So I'm going to restart and make it a little bit small this time. :)

[Tumerboy]

You could also just make s amall section of grate, and then clone it around.

[Talbot]

Yeah that's what I was thinking about doing.. but having a bunch of grates and not just one big one.

[Eric Chadwick]

Yeah you could make an X, then snap-clone it, that might be easier to manage.

[Talbot]

FINALLY... I got the high poly done. Sounds like an easy process but I did 4 times. Here is the render. I'm planning on adding a light under the grate so you can see the pipes.

http://www.iamtalbot.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/graternder.png

[Tumerboy]

cool, congrats.

[Eric Chadwick]

Nice job.

The edges are really thin, I didn't do it in my example, but you should make the edge bars at least as thick (if not more) than the inner cross-pieces. Look at your reference again.

Also this is the high-poly mesh for generating a normal map, you'll want to use a normal-mapped low-poly mesh in your environment, not these mega-polygon meshes.

You may want to re-think your design too, since the upper part looks more future-tech, while your grate looks decidely past-tech. Some ideas from Doom 3...

http://www.visualwalkthroughs.com/doom3/alphalabs1/doom3-2004-08-24-01-35-49-7.jpg (http://www.visualwalkthroughs.com/doom3/alphalabs1/alphalabs1.htm)

[Talbot]

Thanks. :) I'm sort of confused because you said that the original glass doesn't fit with everything else. So then I went to this to make it use more metal. In my opinion the glass futuristic and with it being worn down it made it fit with the rusty metal.

What do you think it should be? I did look at the doom 3 picture a couple hours ago but I'm now at work and for some reason the picture isn't appearing. Sorry :(

Oh and if you think I should keep the grate, should I use XNormal, nvidea pugin (from the nextgen texturing dvd eat3d.com) or something else to create (bake, is that the correct use? haha) the normal maps?

[Tumerboy]

Eric's saying that a Metal Grate will fit better in this environment, but the particular grate that you picked, is more like a drainage/sewer grate, and doesn't feel as new and techy as it should. The grate you made looks like it should be made out of cast iron, with larger, chunkier features. This is typical in drainage & sewer grates, and is an older technology/technique. Often you'll see grates of that style, with "Blah Blah Company, 1929" embossed on it.


Something like he posted, that looks more like an access grate for wires/technology would fit better imo. Making it look like stamped metal, or at lesat made out of steel/aluminum would help sell a more modern look.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gsi/87417073/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31658497@N00/533148445/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/boy_bohemian/418495811/


Maybe something with a little more design to it:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/futileboy/96457539/

[Talbot]

Ok now I think I understandand I'm going to choose the second one... the good thing is that I think I can model that one. I'm going to try and have the high poly done tonight so ill post another render when it is done. Thanks. :)

[Talbot]

Latest render:
http://www.iamtalbot.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/grate3.png

I've noticed a couple minor errors but before you critique those I just would like to know if this "fits".

[Tumerboy]

I'd say so. Lets see the wires.

[Talbot]

... I don't think I'm up for wires...

[Tumerboy]

huh?

[Talbot]

Sorry got confused there... when I read yours I had just woken up and I misunderstood what you were saying. You want the wireframe correct?

[Tumerboy]

indeed. We want to see how you constructed your high poly.

[Talbot]

Subdivision ON:
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/gratesub.png?t=1220107068

Subdivision OFF:
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/gratenosub.png?t=1220107144

[gamedev]

you need a bit more edge control around the t-junctions. Right now they flange out a bit (cross sections get thicker around the t-junctions). Instead of chamfering that inside edge like you have (resulting a diamond shape from the top), add and extra edge loop on each side just near the t-junction. You should get even thickness all the way to the junction and nice rounded inner edge.

[Talbot]

Could you label one of the pictures? I'm having trouble following you...

I assume the t-intersections are the outer most intersections... and I don't know what you mean by loop or where exactly to put it.

Thanks for joining the discussion though! ;)

[gamedev]

real quick example (and not just the t intersections, all of them actually):
http://www.tylerwanlass.com/images/subdedge.jpg

[Talbot]

K Thanks! I understand now.

[Talbot]

Here is what I came up with.

Subdivision ON:
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/grate2sub.png?t=1220131482


Subdivision OFF:
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/grate2nosub.png?t=1220131574

I didn't want to ask another stupid question so I just went with the only way I know how to do it. This is probably not the best way to make the loops but I used the slice plane tool and eyeballed the dimensions. Feel free to tell me how you did it.

[gamedev]

just grab som edge rings and use the connect tool with the option box. You can then use the pinch and slide to position your control edges.

[Talbot]

Not to be rude but, I think it is time to move on from the high poly grate modeling. My next step is to bake the normal and opacity maps. At the moment don't know exactly how to do this but I'm going to start working on that. It would be helpful if someone could tell me how they would do it from start to finish. Thanks. :)

[Eric Chadwick]

It would be helpful if someone could tell me how they would do it from start to finish. Thanks. :)

Sure it would, but you wouldn't learn much would ya? Use the Search button, and use the search term +opacity +bake . Also look at the Normal Map wiki page.

[Talbot]

I didn't find anything that I was able to follow on polycount so I've been going back forth between the wiki and a tutorial I found on google.

Should my low poly be a plane with holes in it, just a plane or a plane with transparent faces/holes?

[Eric Chadwick]

Should my low poly be a plane with holes in it, just a plane or a plane with transparent faces/holes?
The last option. Though you would get a better result if you used a grate design with more of a bevelled look to it, like the Doom 3 examples. Your current design has no "slope" to the cross pieces, so you'll end up seeing only the tops of the bars when it's mapped onto a flat plane.

[Talbot]

I confused now... are you saying that it is too smooth?

[Eric Chadwick]

No, just that it won't translate into a normal map very well, the sides of the cross-pieces won't show up in your normal map because they are at 90° to the low-poly plane. Section 4 of Joao Costa's tutorial (http://www.acetylenegames.com/artbymasa/tuts/tut-modeling_for_next-gen_games.jpg) illustrates why.

[Talbot]

K. I understand now. I tried to remove the inside part of the loops I added but it just made it worse. Any ideas?

[Tumerboy]

He's saying that, because the top surface of the grate is essentially flat, and the holes are essentially vertical, that the normal map will be almost entirely flat, and thus defeats the purpose of making a normal map.

Personally, Eric, I don't see the bevels on the Doom 3 ones either though.

[Eric Chadwick]

Click on the image and look at the other screenshots on the page. That site has loads of screenshots. Better yet, play the game yourself.
http://www.visualwalkthroughs.com/doom3/alphalabs1/doom3-2004-08-23-23-34-43-7.jpg (http://www.visualwalkthroughs.com/doom3/alphalabs1/alphalabs1.htm)

[Talbot]

Yeah I knew what Eric was talking about in the doom picture but I thought that he meant the 90 degree angles in the image below. I don't know why I thought this.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/Capture.png?t=1220274204

I have an idea to fix what you're talking about. I'll have it done within a couple of hours.

[Talbot]

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/Capture-1.png?t=1220287907

I'm very proud of this... :) Please tell me that this works. I'm going to get started on the normal map that I will be surprised if I can do without asking for help.

[Eric Chadwick]

Good job! You're getting it, this is great to see!

I'd make the rim along the very outside edge much thicker, like 2x the width of the inner ribs. Here it looks like 1/2 as thick.

As for learning to bake normal maps, I would suggest following the tutorials that ship with Max, for example: C:\Program Files\Autodesk\3ds Max 2009\help\3dsmax_t.chm > Materials and Mapping Tutorials > Normal Bump Mapping.

[Talbot]

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/box01normalsmapcopy.png?t=1220289281

I don't really know what happened here... I tried to apply it just to see what would happen. While I learn about applying normal maps maybe someone could tell me why the colors got messed up in the middle.

[Eric Chadwick]

Best advice I can give is don't get ahead of yourself, will cause more problems than it's worth.

[Talbot]

ok. What does it mean when you have the brown patch?

[Tumerboy]

no idea, bug great progress Talbot! Sorry Eric, I see what you're talkinga bout now.

[Talbot]

Thanks Tumerboy! :)

[Eric Chadwick]

Brown patch is there because you're shooting in the dark, it could be any number of things simply because you don't know what you're doing yet.

Go through the tutorial that ships with Max, and make sure you understand each step, in this way many things will become clear.

[Talbot]

I have been following a tutorial... not the 3ds max one though. I just fixed the brown patch. I think the thing I changed was the size of the normal map. I did this after I got it to appear in the render and decided to see how it looked with a higher resolution. Now do I add an Alpha map to make the holes?

[Eric Chadwick]

Normal map wiki page.

[Talbot]

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/grate9.png?t=1220315617

So I know there are a ton of things that wrong but it is an improvement.

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/box01normalsmapcopy-1.png?t=1220315826

Speaking of stuff wrong... I can't figure out why the vertical bars in the normal are pointing inward. Please just tell me why and not where to find out why. Yes I will learn from it because you will be telling me. If it is somewhere else then just copy and paste it. It really saves me time when I'm getting REALLY sick of this grate.

Another thing that I need to work on is lighting. I'm going to start mixing the education of that with the material stuff I'm learning currently.

Oh and Eric, my next post will include fatter edges on the grates. :) I just realized I forgot to do that.

[Joao Sapiro]

thats an object space normal map , you might want to render a tangent space one .

[Talbot]

Ok so I understand what you mean but I'm having trouble fixing it. I started by getting xNormal and making a new normal map. It was object space also, but it fixed that weird perspective view problem I had in my original Normal Map. So then I used the "Object Space to Tangent Space" Tool that is in xNormal. Now it hasn't finished yet, it is been "saving" it for the past 10 min., but in the preview box it is still looking like an object space map. Any ideas on how I can convert or why the converter is taking so long to "save" it?

[Talbot]

I guess I'll post the new Normal map. And to clarify... the convert to tangent did nothing...

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/Grate_NormalMap.jpg?t=1220328465

[Tumerboy]

Go back a few steps. Your original render (is this in max?)

If so, then your cage is doing some wierd distortion thing. Sure, converting to tangent MAY have fixed it, but you should figure out the root issue, rather than a way to get around the problem.

Go through this if you haven't already:

http://www.poopinmymouth.com/tutorial/normal_workflow.htm

[Joao Sapiro]

why convert to tangent when you can render a tangent one ?! are you this lost with something so simple as a grate that for some reason you decided to model ? when you could just bake it and use alpha channels ?

[MightyPea]

Talbot: not having posted in this thread yet, I think I should tell you that a few people are getting fed up with your inability to use google, and the fantastic Polycount Wiki that Eric spent his precious time updating. I think it won't take long before you irritate them enough for them to give up on helping you altogether. Johny's already getting there, as you can tell.
Go through the wiki, do a few tests, see if you can master the theory behind normalmaps. Also read through perna's end-all normalmap thread, it's a goldmine of useful tips, although I believe Eric has put most of those into the normalmap article on the wiki.

Then, if you've done that, people will be more than happy to help you with any problems, as they were in the beginning of the thread.

[Talbot]

Tumerboy: Before I forget, yes, I'm using max.

I was able to fix the distortion.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/normalsmapcopy.png?t=1220363551

But there is still a lot of pink. So then I brought it into xNormal. That made the pink darker. Then I took it into the Nvidia NormalMap plugin in Photoshop. This is what came out of it.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/normalsmap23copy.png?t=1220364023

I'm still trying to figure out what the random bumps are. But for a quick solution I touched it up in photoshop and this is what I came up with.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/normalsmap23co3py.png?t=1220365019

MightyPea: Yeah I was definatly starting to see that. The thing was that up until Tumerboy sent me the link in his last post, I was getting sent to website that what the different Normal Maps were and that was good but I really needed a website that told me the steps to creating the different types. The image that I'm going to show Johny is a good example. I wanted someone to tell me or show me a website where it told me where I pick which type. I still don't know whether there is an actual setting for this or you are supposed to do it like I explained to Tumerboy.

Anyway... yes I will keep that in mind. I hope people realize that I have been using google to find tutorials on making and applying Normal Maps. That is how I learned it actually. I just used the wiki as a Normal map dictionary.

Johny:
I'm sorry that I didn't see the two big buttons infront of me when I made the normal map. I feel like an idiot and kneel before you amazing skills of explaining stuff... oh and your awesumeness. :)

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/tangentcopy.png?t=1220365800

[Tumerboy]

Your last render is closer to what you need, but you need to render directly to Tangent Space. You should NOT have to do any editing/taking something into XNormal, etc. You should be able to render directly, something you could immediately use on a flat plane to approximate the grate from above. Period.

Also, I'm glad to help, but many useful tutorials, including Poopinmymouth's great normal map baking tutorial, are linked to from both the Be All End All Normal Map thread, and the Polycount Wiki page on Normal Maps.

I know it's alot to wade through, but you would truely benefit from stopping your work on this grate, and simply reading through those pages. You would find links to various useful tutorials, and you would have a better understanding of not only WHAT do do, but WHY you're doing it, and HOW it works.

[EarthQuake]

The issue here, and here specficly: http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/box01normalsmapcopy-1.png?t=1220315826 IS NOT AN OBJECT SPACE MAP. Johny you retard how dare you throw him off the path like this.

The problem here is that your highres has HOLES IN IT. Which will give you garbage random colors or some other unpredictable result. What you need to do is this:

First off, You want add some geometry behind the grates, doesnt matter what it is, just a flat box will be best. Dont put it too far back that the trace is going to miss it, just far enough back that it isnt clipping into it.

Now, because you're going to get something rendered on 100% of your image, you need to give each part a different material color. So, apply a flat black material to your lower box mesh, and a flat white material to your upper grate mesh.

Now all you need to do is render a diffuse/color map from those material colors(you can do this in max) and there you have your alpha channel!



From this image here it looks like you have all sorts of wonky smoothing going on here. http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/grate9.png?t=1220315617

The grate mesh should be on its own smoothing group totally flat, not getting smoothed or even attached to other meshes.

The distortion issue is either a totally screwy cage(really there is no need to even use cage on a mesh like this, offset is enough) Or you're trying to project this onto a slightly smoothed mesh. You should be projecting this onto a single quad.


Also what tumorboy says about these latest images looking better is again totally wrong, your goal should be: http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/box01normalsmapcopy-1.png?t=1220315826 < this, simply without the distortion, and patching up those inner holes with the geometry i talked about above. Your last 3 images are totally wrong and very much worse than what your originally had.


As for this image here: http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/box01normalsmapcopy.png?t=1220289281 I'm not entirely sure why its happening but i can tell you exactly what it is.
That result is happens when your rays shoot backwards and render the wrong side of the mesh. Turning on ignore backfaces should fix this. This is likely from screwed up cage settings, but could also just be max being a bitch.

You'll notice if you take that image into photoshop and invert it, the "brown" area will appear to be correct, and the opposite area will no look broken. Simply a case of backwards rays.

[Tumerboy]

Um. . . no?

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/normalsmapcopy.png?t=1220363551

IS

http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/box01normalsmapcopy-1.png?t=1220315826

without distortion.

I'm saying the first image above, is on the right track.

[EarthQuake]

No, its not. its nearly fucking white dude. The normals in that shot are fucked, i have no idea how he got to that point but whatever the process is its WRONG.

[perna]

A case of the blind leading the blind in this thread. Talbot, I admire your persistence.

[Tumerboy]

Fair enough, I agree it's too white, but the distortion is gone. I thought that was progress, but I'll step off if I'm that off base. My appologies to Talbot and anyone else I've misled or fucked up.

[Eric Chadwick]

Ignore Perna. We were all there once, I guess he's forgotten what it's like.

If someone is offering help, that's commendable in my book, it's ultimately up to the OP to weed out what's correct or not.

[Talbot]

Earthquake: If what you said is true, then you have saved me from going down a bad path. Before I go further I want to say thank you for helping me. And for some reason everything you are saying is making sense to me. I know what I need to do and hopefully I will have another render within the next half hour. :)

[Talbot]

Wow so when I wrote my post I just saw up to Earthquake's first post... a lot has happened since.

But I think I know what to do. And in my new render I will make the borders thicker. :)

Tumerboy: I really appreciate that you atleast tried to help me... and you didn't get frustrated with me.

[EarthQuake]

Cool man, i can possibly whip up a real quick example if you're still having problems.

And tumor, i didnt mean to hate on you or anything i just wanted to get this thread cleared up and get him on the right track.

[Tumerboy]

No Problem. I'm the first to admit I don't have as intimate a knowledge with normal baking as a lot of people around here do. If I'm wrong, I have no problem letting those more knowledgable types take over. I just saw Eric getting a little frustrated at first and figured I'd try to help out.

[Talbot]

How's this?
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/Normal1copy.png?t=1220397528

Sorry it took so long... I had some things come up and then when I started to work on it I decided to model it again... for the 7th time... :( Well atleast I feel comfortable with the tools used now.

[Tumerboy]

much better! (EQ can tell me I'm wrong now :P )

[Talbot]

haha thanks! :)

[Eric Chadwick]

Cool. Now you need to take this base texture and add some life to it. No grate is this pristine.
http://wiki.polycount.net/Normal_Map#Painting

Also added a tutorials section to the wiki.
http://wiki.polycount.net/Normal_Map#Tutorials

[Talbot]

Ok. So I didn't know exactly what to do so I tried variation that I could think of. Hopefully one of them is correct. :)

First I got rid of some of the random dots (and the missing left side edge).
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/Normal11.png?t=1220412370

Second, I did try to make the range higher but lets just say that didn't work and I won't add a screenshot.

Third, I made my first attempt at adding texture.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/Normal12.png?t=1220412531
(looks like metal but doesn't have the worn down feeling)

Last one I tried, I took a scratched metal texture, turned it into a normal map, put it on top of the original normal map (touched up version) and then lowered the opacity.) I think it turned out very nice. :)
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/Normal14.png?t=1220412729

Let me know if any of those would work.

[Eric Chadwick]

Nope, not really. Takes a bit more effort to make good metal.

These two tutorials should give you some ideas.
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=46&t=373024
http://www.iddevnet.com/quake4/ArtReference_CreatingModels#head-3400c230e92ff7d57424b2a68f6e0ea75dee4afa

Also you need to use Overlay when blending normal map layers.
http://cgtextures.com/content.php?action=tutorial&name=normalmap
http://www.poopinmymouth.com/process/tips/normalmap_deepening.jpg

Edit... I also see that your scratches are looking like ridges instead of grooves. You need to make sure each normal map layer uses the same "lighting" directions... in the case of your grate that's the red channel pointing to the left, and the green channel pointing downward.

I can see your scratches texture has its green channel facing upward (looks like lit from above) while your grate holes have their green channel facing downward (looks like lit from below).

[Talbot]

Oh. I did think I was moving on to the entire material just yet. I thought I was still just on the normal map. Here is an updated version of the normal map. It still needs work but I fixed the overlay problem and also the green channel.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/Normal15-1.png?t=1220458262

I also made an alpha map and applied that. Then rendered to see where I was.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/render1.png?t=1220458494

In the CGsociety tutorial, he uses a scratch brush to ware down some of the jutting out spots. I have been looking (searching google) for a while now and I can't find a brush like that. All I keep getting a brushes that are like stamps of a bunch of scratches. Does anyone have a brush like the one that he was using. I was thinking that I would make the tops more worn down but if that's not what you would do let me know.


The second tutorial that you gave me is amazing by the way. The first one I have just touched on the painting section a little bit.

Edit: I just realized that the vertical bars in the render are very thick. Do you think I should keep it like that or scale the opacity holes up?

[Tumerboy]

Hey, you can make your own brushes. They're just black and white images that you then define a brush off of.

The shape of your holes is a little odd, though kind of gives it an interesting look. I had expected the hole to make a more even bevel on each side. i.e. 3-5 pixels in from each bevel.

[Eric Chadwick]

The key to making believable models and textures is to use reference of real-world things. The best environment (and character) artists use reference photos to dissect how things can be recreated, and extrapolate from those photos to create their own goals. Sounds to me like you're just winging it, like you're not exactly sure what you want. Get some photos of grates, post them and we'll see where to go from here.

[Talbot]

This isn't what I a aiming for before I started to look for a reference but I like the texture on it. I know the geometry isn't the same but I think the texture would look good.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/27/46451795_1a75f647ea.jpg?v=0

I'm going to try and make the bars the same thickness now.

[Eric Chadwick]

Cool. Not much wear and tear here, except for the spilled paint. Looks like galvanized steel, which is a patchy kind of surface.

[Talbot]

Well in my scene, the place where the grate is, now that I think about it it isn't where people walk.

[Talbot]

I fixed the bar thickness (on the normal map).
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/normal16.png?t=1220477307

[EarthQuake]

Hey, is your texture being stretched? It looks like the mesh its on is 2:1 but your texture is 1:1.

[Talbot]

Yeah I just fixed it by making that new normal map. I haven't done a new metal texture because I don't know for sure what I want it to end up like.

[Eric Chadwick]

Well good point about it not being worn much, because it's up against the wall.

The story arc of this thread really brings it home just how important it is to invest some time in design/concepting at the very start of a project. If you don't have a clear idea of where you're going, you'll almost never get a great result.

I say almost never because once you're more experienced, the less concepting you need, the more you can just wing it. Probably not what you want to hear though.

Edit... the solution here is to gather a ton of reference, do some sketching, play some games with similar enviros, get inspired and understand exactly what you want to do with your piece.

[Talbot]

Ok, I have found some more references.

I was surprised to see how similar this model is to mine. The only thing is that I don't like how shiny it is.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/52032612-Full.jpg?t=1220484369

This is more of the material I want... only more high res. I like how it isn't too worn down but it also isn't new.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/52032545-Full.jpg?t=1220484526

Here is three photo references. I would like to mix the first two but have more of the first one. I'm thinking it would come out to look like the third photo. Also on the third one I don't want to include the large darker spots.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1422/580112394_d06ccff305.jpg?v=0

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1338/803205051_b53e971561.jpg?v=0

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2149/2071595949_b997f442f6.jpg?v=0

In the last four pictures I was looking at the texture... not the geometry. I just want to make that clear so you don't think I all over the place with the geometry.

Hope this is enough so you can point me in the right direction. I'm thinking I would now go to the cgsociety tutorial you showed me but some of the steps seem like they aren't needed for this (for example: adding more worn down contact points).

[Eric Chadwick]

This is fine reference if you're just making the grate, but I really meant you should figure out what you want to do with the environment as a whole. That will help guide you toward making the right decisions for each individual asset.

But if you're just making the grate, the three photos all show wear/damage along the leading edges. So Stefan's ideas for wearing down the metal is still applicable to your grate. You just have to finesse it.

[Jeremy Lindstrom]

this one
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1422/580112394_d06ccff305.jpg?v=0

looks like a bottom of a plastic milk crate.

[Talbot]

haha I don't know. It was labeled as "grate" not "crate"... so I'm going to go with metal.

[Talbot]

Eric... I made a template... I hope you like the bright colors. :)
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/rendertemp.png?t=1220495747

1:
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/ConcreteBare0141_L3.jpg?t=1220495854

2. (This is going to need some work. Thinking of adding two columns of bolts on the side edges... after rotating it 90 degrees.)
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/MetalBare0054_1_M3.jpg?t=1220496460

3. (I would like to add some rust... this is just the base.)
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/MetalBare0043_L3.jpg?t=1220496004

4.
(Grate references included in previous post.)

5.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/ConcreteBare0054_L3-1.jpg?t=1220496129

6.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/RustPaint0076_1_L3.jpg?t=1220496203

7... I don't know yet.


This really helped Eric. Thank you for the idea.

[Eric Chadwick]

For you to make a quality environment art piece for your portfolio, you're going to need an overall concept for the scene, a unifying painting (or two). This is why we use concept art in game development.

This list of individual texture choices isn't going to cut it, because your env will end up looking like a hodge-podge, without a unified theme or goal.

If you can't paint, then gather photos of environments.

[Eric Chadwick]

Take a good look at the Env Concept Artists thread (http://boards.polycount.net/showthread.php?t=47670) for inspiration. Just don't grab one of their pieces and recreate it in 3D, unless you ask for permission first, and clearly label your work as inspired from so-and-so's concept.

Also I just saw Marc-Antoine Hamelin's portfolio (http://www.marc-antoine.ca/) (Marcan here on the boards). Really beautiful work. This is a great standard to work towards. If your work approaches this quality you won't have any trouble getting a job.

[Talbot]

Ok I understand. And no... I cannot paint well... haha.

So I decided to gather pictures of what inspired me. Probably should have done it sooner.

This is taken from Halo 3 Campaign: Crow's Nest.
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/52076507-Full3.jpg?t=1220545860
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/52076508-Full3.jpg?t=1220545893
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/52076510-Full3.jpg?t=1220545929
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/52076538-Full3.jpg?t=1220545958

I would try and draw something but it really wouldn't look how I would want it to. I took a look at something of the concept artists and it was pretty amazing. I also took a look at Marc-Antoine Hamelin's Portfolio and was amazed. I played Army of Two and thought that the environments were really nice (sadly I thought the story and gameplay needed some work, but I'm not going to make a big deal about it).

I would also like to note that I'm going to school this Saturday. Classes don't start until Monday but I'm worried that I won't have as much time when homework starts kicking in. I'm thinking that a timeline/list of steps would be very helpful. Then I can try and designate sometime each day to work on this and always know what the next step is. Eric, would you be willing to give me a summary of the steps you take when you start on an environment? It can be as detailed or as general as you want. Here is a rough idea of what I'm thinking.

1. Gather concepts and reference photos. This includes reference photos for all of the materials in the scene.
2. Basic geometry.
3. High poly Geometry.
4. Bake Normal Maps from high poly geometry.
5. Gather and edit textures.
6. Finalize Normal maps and textures.

(Hopefully you get the idea.)

I just think that it would be helpful for staying organized and also be an insight into how the "average" person works.

Thanks.

[Eric Chadwick]

I'm crunched for time right now, with finding a new job and all, maybe someone else can help you out. But for workflow info, you can start here:
http://wiki.polycount.net/CategoryEnvironment

[Talbot]

I'm sorry... I didn't mean to make it sound like I was demanding you to.

I'm going to try and make the grate material using the cgsociety tutorial you linked to in a previous post.

[Talbot]

Here is my latest render...
http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/TalbotFiles/render3.png?t=1220566762

I know it still needs the alpha map but that isn't my problem. My problem is that I don't know where I should add wear. If people haven't walked over it a lot then the amount should be too much. I was thinking about adding a little on the sides to show that people take the grates off to get to the pipes often. But I really don't know.

Could someone please highlight areas on this image to show me where they think the wear should be? (lots of wear's and where's... haha)

[alexk]

why don't you just fire up photoshop (or whatever program) and mess around with your wear and tear? I know you're learning and the technical stuff needed exact instructions (totally understandable), but now you're getting close to the actual "art" and you can't always expect people to tell you exactly what to do all the time. Use your picture references and start applying it to what you have, or just experiment. And then post and you'll get more helpful information than just an answer to "tell me where to put my wear and tear"

[danr]

"If people haven't walked over it a lot then the amount should be too much. I was thinking about adding a little on the sides to show that people take the grates off to get to the pipes often. But I really don't know."

yes you do. You've thought about it, and you've reached a reasonable conclusion. Employ it.

Everyone has to reach a point where they can stop needing spoonfed answers, the quicker they get there the better imo. Fuck me, i know people who've worked in the game industry for 15 years and haven't hit that point yet, so used to they of being fed everything they need like baby birds in the nest desperately screaming for their mother to puke pre-digested mulch into their mouths, just cos it's easy for them. It's the worst thing that can happen to any game artist, short of pancreatic cancer.

I'm not having a go, you're still starting out ... i'm just sowing seeds, that's all

EDIT - consider what two different people posting more or less the same thing at the same time means

[Marcan]

So I decided to gather pictures of what inspired me. Probably should have done it sooner.

Hi Talbot,

when I'm talking to my students over at the 3d school where I'm teaching where they should start on their new environment, I always say the same thing:

Reference.

I'm glad you have now done it, but gathering reference is the first thing anyone should do (besides thinking about what they want to do first, of course!) and it is absolutely key to making something believable to the player, and making your life 10x easier.

What I usually do is this: spend a whole afternoon (if not a day) searching for reference material purely related to what I'll be working on. If I'm doing some underground environment then I'll search for sewers, tunnels, maintenance areas, etc. and everything related to what happens underground. You'll mostly find pipes, machinery, electric panels, maintenance rooms, etc. This way you can find a lot of nice environment reference but you'll also start to build in your head which kind of props/rooms will go in it. Other good references include movies (watch a lot of them) and games (play a lot of them).

These references will also serve you well when it comes time to model the props. I will then file these reference photos in different folders: one for mood (including lighting, colours, composition, and center pieces) one for general reference (materials and how they react to light, props placement, etc.) and one for cross-reference ideas (like this handrail in this library looks great, I'd like to include it in my environment.) And above these 3 folders, I'll put my 2 or 3 best references that will just keep looking at. Every morning before I start working... I fire them up, look at them, get a fresh feel and start working (after coffee, that's mandatory.)

I will then block out the basic shapes really quickly and already start adding a couple lights. This will give you a feel for space and composition. I will not add details in that modeling, I will work on the big shapes though (like pillars and such).

Then once you're pretty happy with this, start modeling and texturing.

Try to remember that you'll be in a production environment. You'll be under strict deadlines and will have to deal with more than art, including level design changes and etc. You will have to produce produce produce. For the 2 days the guy next to you spends on detailing that little prop that's going to be sitting in that corner, you could have modeled a whole room. It's time well spent.

What I mean is you can make that grate look so great, but are you going to look at it that much? How much space does it really take in the end?

If you find yourself stuck on something, try to move on to something else and then come back to it later on. You will probably have found more references and ideas then.

This of course is by no means the absolute way of working, but I find it works well and I think some of these things could help you.

Good reference site:
http://www.flickr.com (pretty much all I use)

Good texture site:
http://www.cgtextures.com

Good reference for environment artist:
http://wiki.polycount.net/CategoryEnvironment (this is a bible and worth every article of it.)

[Tumerboy]

Good reference site:
http://www.flickr.com (pretty much all I use)

Good texture site:
http://www.cgtextures.com

Good reference for environment artist:
http://wiki.polycount.net/CategoryEnvironment (this is a bible and worth every article of it.)

QFT

My methods are very similar to Marcan's. I spend a good chuck of time just collecting reference. I don't break it down as much though.

Block it out, both models and basic textures, then start refining those into something workable.

[Talbot]

Marcan: Thank you so much for taking the time to share all of that. I knew that reference was important but you have now shown me that it is extremely important. I will get right on it!

one question I have, for both Tumerboy and Marcan, when you say "Block it out", what do you mean exactly?

Ok so I didn't really realize who Marcan is until 2 seconds ago... haha we were just talking about you!

I'm just going to say again that I'm really thankful for you sharing information on how you do environments.

EDIT:
You brought up organizing files... can you explain how you organize all your project files? Do you use the 3ds max project folder or... how do you do it?

[Marcan]

I'm just going to say again that I'm really thankful for you sharing information on how you do environments.

My pleasure.

one question I have, for both Tumerboy and Marcan, when you say "Block it out", what do you mean exactly?

I explained briefly the process on this post:
http://boards.polycount.net/showpost.php?p=843408&postcount=9

But basically, before even starting any art, I will block out the entire level with one single static mesh: a box. I will scale it, rotate, duplicate it, use it for everything. This enables me to work on composition (which is so important when making environments) while still being able to iterate very quickly. Then once this is done, I can throw a lighting in there to get a feel of the colours and the mood.

Once this is locked in my head, I will move on towards starting real modeling and texturing.

Because if it doesn't look good with simple gray boxes, good modeling will not make a good composition.

[Eric Chadwick]

I'm sorry... I didn't mean to make it sound like I was demanding you to. No harm done, just not as much time to help out today. Besides, you're getting some good advice.

[Talbot]

Marcan:
You brought up organizing files... can you explain how you organize all your project files? Do you use the 3ds max project folder or... how do you do it?

I'm not at the point where I'm going to make a level just yet. I figure I'm going to make a couple small scenes like this one, and then I will start on maybe a UT3 map. I know that doesn't exclude the "blocking it out" concept but I'm not planning on making a big environment this first time around.

Eric: Hope the job search is working out. :)

[Tumerboy]

God, Max's Project Files are so bloated with extra folders I will never use, that just looking at the file structure it makes, makes me depressed & overwelmed.

At work I have to adhere to what's being done there. But for the most part, it's how I set things up on my own anyway.

Project Folder
-Object Folder
---(maybe a ".Max" file folder here if you're exporting to another format in the "Object Folder")
-Texture Folder
---PSD Folder


If my "Project" is a single object, or prop, I might just put all my textures in the texture folder, and all my objects in the object folder.

If it's a scene, and more complicated with various props etc. I might make folders for those props and various groupable things.

Depending on what you're doing, you might also have a materials folder, or something for lighting? dunno.

I think the most important thing is that you're setting up your files so it's easier for YOU to find things. Dumping everything in one folder gets very confusing, very quickly.

[Eric Chadwick]

Some info about how game studios organize files.
http://tech-artists.org/forum/showthread.php?t=57

[Marcan]

Marcan:
You brought up organizing files... can you explain how you organize all your project files? Do you use the 3ds max project folder or... how do you do it?


I don't think it would be really handy to you if I gave you our exact file structure and how we organize our stuff, but basically it comes down to one thing: can you find your stuff quickly? Time is precious, if you lose it searching for your stuff then you have a problem.

But a good rule of thumb is to have textures in a folder, and models in another.