modeling and rigging (some nudety) wip

[Thermidor]

Hi all , i havnt posted for a little while, ive been working on a new rig that has facial muscles as well as driven keys etc, im trying to get it so there is almost no tweeking , but the nastyest areas to get looking right are the shoulders and thy areas ...the face bits arnt rigged and the texture is not really even a serious attempt , ive gota add loads of detail to that ... (been looking at daz`s new tut) wot i really want to know is if anyone has any good shoulder and pelvis systems , and what they are ... im working in maya and i want to steer away from using too many driven keys ... and i dont realy want to use deformation cages at all ... just bones and ik ... i wish i could show the hypergragh node layout as this would show wot ive got going on ...
http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/newrig1.jpg
the modeling for the head and body is almost done ... about 35k at the mo i think ... i havnt modeled the hands and feet yet really ... the main trouble like i said is the areas where folds are ...
http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/newrig2.jpg

sorry about the generaly bad way ive presented this ...

i just wanted to quickly get some feedback , while im finnishing the rig ...

[JKMakowka]

Great work so far, but she is really skinny. Her shoulders and upper arms make me want to 'force feed' her /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
She has got a cute face though /images/graemlins/wink.gif

The biggest deformation problem is definitly at the hips, and results from (I think) joints that are too low.
Have a look at the center or rotation on your own upper leg.

[edit] I am not a big fan of double joints like you used in the knees, since they don't represent the real bone joints. Do they work with an IK setup?

[Daz]

The model is looking excellent ( but you still might freak people out with naked pics of what looks to be a 13yr old ).

Surely these aren't so much 'rig' problems as skinning problems? I'm not convinced you'll ever be able to get around that creasing in the hips there unless you use blendshapes. Are you skinning or wrap deforming?

Youve seen this stuff Im sure:

http://www.optidigit.com/stevens/rigtut.html

http://staff.ci.qut.edu.au/~barkerc/Final%20PAN%20website/charactersetup.htm

I dunno, it seems like youre looking to achieve a really realistic setup, but without set driven keys I think thats gonna be tough. Are you trying to build a generic rig that you can use again, or a one time perfect setup for her?

[Thermidor]

the double joints in the knees do work ok and they do use ik, and joint placement is pretty much exactly right as the knee has 2 rotational axis in it if you study it .. my last rig had a 100% accurate skeleton , with the radius and ulna bones rotateing in the forarm , but this led to some nasty deformations in twisting the arm ... the shoulder system uses scapula and clavicle ik joints and driven keys that translate them in Y axis and z axis when my arm controler on the hand is moved , so they move with it ...but i get nasty conpression of polys there too ... also the under arm joints translate in y as well using driven keys ... this bit sorta works...

the actual model proportions are taken from a real life model ... thats why they are so skinny .. as for the hips , the hip bones are ok , they fit the model , and the hip joints are in the correct place in relation .. but i get some really bad streatching on the ass , and some really bad folding on the front ... i tried to fix this with 2 bones set to move when the leg box translates in y ... it sortof works , but i cant help thinking ive missed somthing ...

i dabled with some crazily complex ik systems to get the shoulder to work and in te end i recon the more bones you have , the worse the deformation ...

is my mesh too dense where im trying to fold ? ill post a wire frame ..

[Thermidor]

Daz , 1 time perfect rig setup i think .. ive got alot of driven keys already ... but to make this rig semi transportabl , i want to be able to limit driven keys in areas that i will end up moving.. i really hope you are joking about the 13year old thing or im taking this off, its based on a model who is about 20 years i think ...

funny , that second link i was looking at just yesterday thinking that shoulder setup they have looks quite swish ... i do want to steer away from blend shapes.

notice how in the first one they never show the leg bent upward /images/graemlins/wink.gif

i think this is sorta a rig and skin problem ...

[Daz]

Yeah I was kidding. Were so used to seeing models with big boobs, that anything more real seems oout of the ordinary!

[Herr-Maestro]

I'm particularly impressed with her. You've done a splendid job, although the person who made the 13yr old comment? That young woman is by no means 13, she's more along the lines of a 19 yr to 22 yr old Asian College Student not a High School student. Seen and been friends with my fair share of Gf's back when I was in japan (1989/90) and she's anything but 13. The elbows however are a issue. Although, her left leg just above her knee it looks like she has a small scar which is quite refreshing to see with just a normal model like this. Good Work Thermidor.

[Thermidor]

Daz : no problem then , well , i was gona say the same thing in my defence .. hehe , its amazing how much breast size makes a difference to ppls perception ... cute girl with normal breasts is 13 , cute girl with implants is 25+

maestro , thnx for the suport , im sure daz didnt mean anything bad, i respect his work . hes darn good.

anyone got any ideas , ive just considered , maybe a spine ik bone structure attachech to the movement of the fatty areas of the back side end ... i would draw a diagram , but i cant be assed, (get it)

i gota say , i never meant this to be contreversial in any way , apart from maybe my modeling style /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Daz]

no need to make an issue out of it Maestro. I allready said it was a silly joke. So can we see the wire Thermidor?

[Thermidor]

ill post wires of the areas im having trouble with, bare in mind there has been a mesh smooth ....



http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/wire1.jpg

http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/wire2.jpg

[Herr-Maestro]

*scratchs his head while looking at Daz*
Issue? I saw just making a observation and just stating my opinion and experince. Any thing you took from that may have indeed been out of context. Sorry.

[Daz]

Im confused Thermidor. If there has been a meshsmooth how come there are triangless in the geometry?

[JKMakowka]

I drew a quick picture to show what I ment about the hip:
http://www.sedan.uni-osnabrueck.de/~krischan/hipjoint.jpg
The red line is where I guess your current axis of rotation is.
The green is where the axis of rotation should be, and the blue shows where the fold for your skinning ( how the vertexes are assigned to the bones) should be.

Now before the acusations start, the redline is just where I guess your axis of rotation is, judging from how the model folds at that particular place (and from looking at the second picture you posted). But it might as well be a strange way of skinning it (like Daz suggested?).

I did some research on the knee- two joints issue and while there is some evidence for your two joints theory (the knee is a pretty complex joint), I (and quite a few leg-prothesis makers /images/graemlins/tongue.gif ) still think it can be simulated with a single joint, that is aproximatly at the top half of the kneecap but moved back a bit (hmm very aproximatly /images/graemlins/laugh.gif ). The reason for this is that the knee joint doesn't only open up like box, but the upper bone also slides forward a bit.
But you might be right, a two bone setup will probably give even more acurate results, but I doubt that it is worth the extra work... I will experiment with it some time.

Ok on to the other stuff /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I don't think it is the small boobs that make her look a bit young (not really 13 though), it is more the hairstyle and a maybe a bit to large head compared to the body (just a tiny bit). Oh btw the neck might be a bit to long also, not sure though.

Well and the wireframe shots show that there is something generally wrong about the hip and butt shape.
The butt-cheeks (is that how it is called in English?) are too...hmmm...'pointy'(?)(exspecially for a extremly skinny girl that that) And the part of the hipbone that sticks out is at the wrong place, and also over pronounced (maybe not since she is so skinny).
The area where your leg is the thinnest (a ring right under the butt-cheek) looks really strange too. Exspecially on the side of the leg, where a normal leg is not bend inwards like that. I might be overinterpreting this (!), but together with the placement of the hip-joint it shows me that you might have a general misconception about how the hip works and looks.

And last but not least: There are some horrible (ok I might be overreacting) mesh-flow/egdeloop termination problems, exspecially where the face and the rest of the body meets.

Now remember:
"If someone is criticized, he must be doing something right, because only the guy who has the ball gets attacked" -loosy quoted from Michael 'Air' Jordan /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Edit]
[ QUOTE ]

Im confused Thermidor. If there has been a meshsmooth how come there are triangless in the geometry?

[/ QUOTE ]
That confuses me too /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[FatAssasin]

I see you've been reading "Maya Character Creation" by Chris Moraffi. Good book, but I think he goes a little overboard with the extra bones. Rigging and skinning is tricky business, you might want to check out this thread (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=88567) at CGTalk on the subject of skin binding. There's a lot of useful info there.

Personally, I think a lot of problems can be solved by good skinning, but that's debatable. How are you doing the skin weighting by the way? Painting or using the component editor?

And one last thing, I like using the two joint knee setup too. It's helps make the knee less mushy looking when it the leg bends.

[Thermidor]

JK : i think you hit the nail on the head with the arrangment of the hip and butt areas ... maybe some more modeling work would help....

Daz : this is a early wire of it before smoothing ... theres tringles all over the place , i guess it just divides them up too ...
http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/early1.jpg

Fatassasin : yeah , my girlfriend bought me that book for my birthday in august, been trying out lots of stuff ever since then ... i havnt got the hang of the component editor way ... so im just doing some small editing on the paint weights tool .. want to try and get a reasonable initial bind...

most of the modeling was done with reference photos and a really good anatomy book in front of me , but there are some areas where ive not finnished modeling yet .. thats why the neck has no modeling ... i just stuck it on after modeling it seperately , just so i could test the way it deforms on the rig ... thnx for the help guys , keep it coming ...

[Daz]

Thats interesting. Well, ordinarily, not matter how many tris you have in your base mesh, a smooth will ALWAYS 'quadify' everything. So this had me stumped.

I finally figured out that you're using a somewhat unorthodox smooth algorithm that doesn't turn everything into quads. Youre using 'linear' instead of 'exponential' right? Any reason for that? I would really try and stick with the latetr If I were you, and furthermore try to use less tris in the first place. I think you'll find everything else will come a bit easier after that. ( and light will bounce off the model in a cleaner way. ) It's alot easier to delineate particular edge flow lines with quads, its less 'stuff' to deal with visually and easier to lay our UV's etc.

[Thermidor]

ahh , thats it , i think i remember messing about with the linear mesh smooth ages back , but never set it back to the defalt ... i had noticed the mesh looking very triangly .... bummer , i just spent the day modeling the high poly version ... i probly will have to go back and clean up the low poly then smooth later ... i was wondering about using a ramp shader to get mice shading quality , wot u think , will that work?

[JKMakowka]

STOP... am I interpreting your last post right, that you are editing the mesh after smoothing?

If you are doing this, you should definitly NOT do this. Smoothing is basicly done as the last step before rendering (and in between sometimes to check the result, but always reversed afterwards).

The subD cage should have all the detail that is in the final mesh (excluding bumpmaps, displacementmaps and or the Zbrush stuff), smoothing is just done to make it smoother /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

P.S: Daz the soothing algorithem mostly used is called 'catmull-clark' if I remember correctly, and it does turn everything into quads.

P.P.S.: the visible part of the hipbone needs to be in front of the hip, not on the side. The fold/ thinnest part of the leg should be place diagonally right below it, not almost horizontal like you did it.

[Thermidor]

i generaly like to tweek things after a smooth , coz it always gives a nasty bloby effect tot he shape , and some things are meant to be sharp ... but , maybe this is my odd settings on smooth ... this isnt subd , ive never tryed to mdel using them , its sucha odd working , starting from primetives .. also i find it pretty slow ...

about the hip , its mainly visable from the front as the sides for the pelvis ... the front of the pelvis is sticking out abit too much i think tho ...

http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/hips.jpg

this shows the joint layout as it is , and im pretty sure its more or less right ... maybe i should have the ik on the leg skeleton start where it is , but have an extra joint before it to make the rotational axis in the place it is on a real skelly...

still , its a larf looking at my dodgy drawing in red of a pelvis ... hehe

[Daz]

He's not using Catmull Clark JK. 'Linear' smoothing in Maya is using a totally different algorithm which sort of simply doubles the amount of geometry you have. Messy.

Thermidor, yeah JK is right. Tweaking the mesh after smoothing is totally defeating the beauty of the workflow of Model>Rig>Animate>Smooth.

[JKMakowka]

[ QUOTE ]
He's not using Catmull Clark JK. 'Linear' smoothing in Maya is using a totally different algorithm which sort of simply doubles the amount of geometry you have. Messy.


[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry misunderstanding, I ment Catmull Clark is what he *should* be using (I am not used to the Maya terminology of linear and exponential).

@Thermidor:
If you wants something to be sharp, and an extra edgeloop, or move the existing edgeloops closer together.
Oh and subD is not box-modeling, but simply the method of creating a lowpoly-cage and smoothing is later on.

The point of rotation of the upper leg is definitly to low, it should be somewhere a little bit right (horizontally) of the middel of the blue diagonal line, that goes from the vagina to the outer part of the hip bone.

But if all of the blue line represent bones, than you definitly got quite a few totally useless one, since the hip is not moveable in itself, nor is the upper legbone at the top (the stuff you drew on the left side).

[Thermidor]

ive got a few bones representing the pelvis . this stops that area collapsing , and makes me not need to do any painting of weights in the pelvis area ... but , maybe you are right and its interfearing with the leg hip setup.

i dont actually have the blue bone pointing at the vagina , or the first bone on the leg chain , but im thinking of putting that one in , so the rotational axis of the leg skelly is more accurate ... when we lift our legs the rotation isnt just att eh hip , so its hard to work it all out ...

today , i think i will go back to the modelig , try to get the low poly one back to a good lvl of detail , and approach it all hoe you and daz advise ... then i think ill try redoing my leg skeleton to fit the jiont placement abit more ...... i will post again later , so u can tell me where ive gone wrong ... /images/graemlins/smile.gif its pretty hard to see glaring arrors somtimes, im too close to the work ....

[Thermidor]

well , ive made a foot :S its not finnished

http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/foot.jpg

i have gone back to the original low poly mesh and remodeled some details in , its quite a different way of working for me , as ive always tweeked little details on the high poly model ... not adding polys , but moving verts a little ... still , its looking ok ... ill post a shot when im done on hands and feet.

[Thermidor]

Been working pretty hard on this ... i still have to do some smothing on the rig , but things are looking better ... ive done most of the things you guys thought eould make it better.... still texture and detailing to do ..

http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/dec9.jpg

[Steakhouse]

It's looking pretty good Therm, there seems to be a strange pinch going on the last picture just under the arm though.

[Thermidor]

yeah , this is a skin bind with no editing at all , so there needs to be some smoothign to get rid of the deformation problems ...

[Daz]

Cool Thermidor. So, something Im unsure about still in your workflow. Are you still smoothing, editing and then skinning? Cos the really nice thing about smoothing after rigging is that youre skinning a pretty low res model that way, making everything far easier to get your head around.

I still see alot of tris in that foot, and not very even poly density. The nails compared to the toes for example. Youre trying too hard to define the curve where toe ends and nail starts, instead of letting the smooth do the hard work with the curve for you. The form of your modeling is really nice for the most part. I just think you need to work on your topology. One of the best ways to do that is to look at a ton of other wireframes perhaps.

[Thermidor]

thnx daz , i am now editing clearing history and then smoothing ... after that , i skin , mainly becuase if i skin before smoothing its slower than a tortoise on morphine /images/graemlins/smile.gif

i definately have to work on my topoligy , but thats always the case /images/graemlins/smile.gif the foot is probly my first ever attempt at a foot /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Daz]

slower how?

[Thermidor]

takes ages to rotate the view , and moving a ik handle is even worse... i dunno why, maybee its my system, i always thought it was becuase it has to remember too much history info while deforming the skin.

[Thermidor]

http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/nolights.jpg

some shots of the texture un-lit... still some seams that need fixing.

[gauss]

great stuff therm, she's a beauty. looks forward to seeing you finish her up and get a real beauty render out /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[skullsplitter]

Kind of reminds me of casualties of the holocaust actually...

[Thermidor]

http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/yuk.jpg

this is where i am now, it dosnt look like im having much progress , ive sorted out some areas that i didnt like , but things just dont quite look right ... im thinking of trying a different clavicle system ... does anyone know how to move the pivot point of bones that have ik attached, without drawing another bone ...

this shot is using the standard bind with a little smooth skin weights , and then the smooth poly turned up after ...

[poopinmymouth]

This really is a great looking model thermidor. i like it alot. Just the right amount of definition in all the right places. Very realistic.

[Scott Ruggels]

Well, to me, the model still looks like a 13 - 14 year old, but hey. Anyway, as to the rigging here are some suggestions.

http://www.rdwarf.com/edbado/Unfriendly/Polycount/dec9C.jpg

After having animated a skeleton, where the bones and pivots are "out in the open" I noticed the animation was a LOT more "realistic" and facile. The thing about the shoulders and arms is that they are not "solidly attatched" to the body, but float on a layer of muscle, over the ribcage. That coupled with the fact it's a ball and socket joint makes the shoulders especially difficult.
So what I would suggest is that you pivot the clavicle, where it actually pivots, which is at the top fromt of the ribcage. The model is skinny enough you have a clear indication of the clavicles. The diagram shows the positioning. To keep the mesh under control you can add a couple of bones to act as scapulae to move the mesh, or a reference object so slide under the skin. An arraingement like this will give you ver realistic shoulder shrugs, as well as giving a better indication of the slide over the ribcage.

Another suggestion is to add an extra joint between the shoulder and elbow, so as to disconect any "twist" rotation from the shoulder joint, which will reduce the incidents of "Beer canning". You can then blend the transition between the joints so that there is a gradual twist all along the arm, and preserving the shoulder from any twisting. If you delete all the channels except the proper rotation,, and then limit the rotation on that same axis in the shoulder youy can include it in the IK solution, from the shoulder to the wrist, as long as you are using an RPSolver. I hope this helps.

Scott

[steady]

i think im going to hell for looking at this thread /images/graemlins/frown.gif

but the model is beautiful, i didn't mean to dishearten you, keep up the good work!

[Thermidor]

Poop : Cheers, ive been working hard on getting muscles and stuff to look right , the model is still far from perfect , but i think some ppl are "getting" what im trying to do.
Thanks for the comments scott, im gona put a rotation in the arm like you have sugested. and im gona keep the clavicle and scapula seperate, maybe pivot the arm seperate as well , and use SDK to make realistic floating.

as for the 13 - 14 year old stuff /images/graemlins/frown.gif, its not too helpfull, i know its not just your opinion , within a few minutes of you posting "steady" has posted with somthing which i can only guess is on the same lines , maybe somone can tell me why she is meant too look so young? is it coz she has a smooth face? people of all ages have those , or a small build? look at Pior`s life drawing thread , there are plenty of skinny looking girls there ... but is he getting stick for it ...? i just wanted to make a realistic figure ... sure enough i could have gone 3 ways ... i could have made a fat figure with bad skin and saggy bits .. or i could have made a normal build figure (this would be fine too) but i really wanted an interesting figure , like those ive drawn in the past. i think its easyer to make the deformation af a well built figure work , so i was hopeing this would be more of a challenge.

[Daz]

Although I totally appreciate how idiotic pointless posts like the one immediately above might cause you to be annoyed Thermidor, try not to be disheartened. Youve got a great looking model so far.

If you want some actual *constructive* advice on what would make her look older ( but retain the 'skinny' feel ) , here are some thoughts:

Head in relation to body size
Ive yet to see a full figure front ortho, but it feels like her head could be big. 7 and a half heads tall might be an average woman, so look into that.

Face:
Although its very cute, theres a certain 'chubbiness' to the face that doesnt fit with the very bony nature to the rest of the model so it might come across as teen puppy fat. Particularly around the mouth. And overall the 'convex' nature of her facial bonestructure makes her seem younger than she might be. Also check eyesize. If theyre big then thats a sure fire way of making her look young.

Hips:
Without ruining the skinny feel, you could definitely go wider on the hips. Really skinny flat chested women still have hips wide enough to give birth.

These might help ( Not Safe For Work images )

http://www.fineart.sk/show.php?w=710

http://www.fineart.sk/show.php?w=713

http://www.fineart.sk/show.php?w=731

http://www.fineart.sk/show.php?w=674

Keep at it man, youve the makings of a fantastic piece of work here.

[Thermidor]

Thanks Daz , thats really helps alot, i definately think the head size may be the leading issue, also the size of the hips too posibly...

the face is sorta based on somone i know , but yeah , the area where the cheeks meet the mouth is probly a problem area...

thanks for taking the time to help me out ... illl keep at it , as it is , im quite pleased with the face , and the body .. which is i supose why it hurts when non constructive comments are made. ill post when ive finnished remaking the rig /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[KDR_11k]

According to the proportion sheets we were handed in art class, 6-6.5 heads is actually realistic. Somehow I can't believe that as 7-7.5 always looked more realistic despite being labeled "idealized". Maybe game art distorts our perception?

[Daz]

hhhmm, Id beg to differ with your tutor on that point. All of the women above are 7 heads tall and over If you measure them. A 6 head tall person is of course possible, but rare I would think. Notice that the one above with the lowest number of heads tall ( http://www.fineart.sk/show.php?w=731 ) is the one that looks most childlike proportionally.

[Thermidor]

i just measured and she is just a tiny bit off 7 heads

last time i did some solid life drawing my lecturer told me 7 heads is the norm, allthough my anatomy book says clearly 8 heads is the norm ... very good book other than that.

[Toomas]

The larger the head compared to the body the younger the person is.
8 heads tall is the artistic ideal and its been for a long time and when humans get smarter and smarter their heads get bigger.

[Scott Ruggels]

I don't think it's the head size as much as the narrowness of the hips, and the babyfat around the cheeks, as Daz says. I've dated short women, and how one judges the ages is often the prominence of the cheek bones, and the width of the hips, rather than tallness or head size ratio. Hairstyle also figures in a little.

Don't get me wrong, I think your anatomy is really well executed on this. Sorry if I made offense though in the earlier post.

The other thing that Iam noticing about the rig you have posted to the top, isthe more complex the rig, the more it resemples the articulation on those high end 12inch poseable action figures. So there's another reason to buy that 18 inch tall poseable Spiderman, to get rigging ideas, and be ahead of the curve. :-)

Scott

[Thermidor]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif thnx scott.

[Mishra]

her breasts seem rather pointy, even if it were cold in that room, they wouldn't be sharp, they;d be like the ears on this thing : http://www.ultimatekeychains.com/ProductImages/thumbnails/basicfun/tn-obie.gif

[Thermidor]

ok , im still working on this ... i really need some thoughts on what im thinking about ... a few days agao , probly more like a week or 2, i came up with what i thought was a great idea, basicly using curves as a aid to the deformation of muscles ... especially where alot of skin stretching occurs,(the ass).
so i did somthing like this ... the CVs of curves are attached to the bones around by parenting transform constraint clusters. heres a really good drawing.

http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/dia1.jpg

and it seemed to work ok , apart from i couldnt attach the curves to the skin cluster. this is probly to do with no knowing too much about how this stuff works , and i thought that maybe it wasnt worth it anyway , as the binding method i was using was cuasing all sorts of havok. anyway , i saw a thing about somthing called muscle TK (i think) whick uses some fancy all singing system , but when i watched a video of a guy demoing there muscle tech , it was virtually the same idea as what im using.

wot i want to know now is , can this be done ? and is it all worth it ? im really sorry for my lack of communication skills here. (and spelling)

[Scott Ruggels]

Actually, think simple. If you have the ability within your project to do so, I would probably suggest morph targets for the ass and thighs bound to driven keys on certain channels within te rotation of the hip joint. Much simpler, You want to try to keep the machine from chugging if you have one, or more than one model. You will have to use trial and error to get a good shape when the leg rotates, but it should not be too much of a problem, since uou can assign the same Mprph target name over and over.

How are you doing Facial animation? the same way?

Scott

[Thermidor]

ive never used morph targets, mainly coz of it seeming a long winded way of doing it ... but also coz i have no idea how to . its making 2 models and morphing them yes? , so in this case i would make 2 morph targets for the leg/hip muscles , and set them as influences??

the face stuff is done with bones too ... mostly just useing stretching of bones to simulate muscle .... since i started binding to closest distance rather than closest join its fixed all the hirachal skinning problems i have ... it seems the closest joint works on the hirachy , so it gets it wrong alot ... hmm , maybe somone could talk to me about this on msn or somthing , coz i dont know anyone at all who is into or knowlegable about 3d , so this forum is my life line , although having a conversation is slow :S

[Thermidor]

belive it or not im still working on this , does anyone have a good tutorial on the principal and reasons for blend shapes , and the way to set them up and use them .. i find alot of threads at places like cg talk but no real help on how to do them, where to do them, and what to do them with ....

as for the model .. ive come upon a revelation as to why my shoulders were being so hard to deform , i think they were rotated forward too much in a un natural pose on the model, so im looking atr fixing this , i havnt tested it yet tho ...
is there a reason why we all keep the T pose? i can tthink of several areas where a slight bend on joints would really help deformation later ... like on the hip joint.

im also redoing the face to a major degree, some big changes , i just hope i can get it looking nice ....

and im generally tidying up edges and stuff , all though im still not convinced that a tri here and there is a bad thing ...

[palm]

Nice rig, model etc are great.

She has to much round features in her face for that skinny body. Only a kid has that. Anyways, great work so far.

/Palm

[Thermidor]

http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/newtop.jpg

The new head , some different solutions to problems but mainly looking the same , but in low poly and a bit tidyer.

[JKMakowka]

The upper eyelit looks too "fat". It needs to carve in more, both right under the eyebrow and right above the upper eyelashes.

And the front of the ear is too far away from the head.

But I really like the way you did the nose and the mouth /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Maybe she will look older if you make the front/bottom/middel-part of the nose a bit longer? (sorry hard to explain /images/graemlins/wink.gif )

[Thermidor]

ahh cool , thnx for your comments JK

[KDR_11k]

is there a reason why we all keep the T pose?

Some use it because it's easier to model that way, especially with ortho viewports but many have abandoned it for better deformation. I don't know of a single game that uses a t-pose as the rigging pose, usually it's feet a shoulderwidth apart, arms at a 60 degree (sometimes 30 but that's rare) angle to the body. Personally I use legs pretty straight down, arms at a 30 degree angle but 60 degree seems to be the most commonly used. Generally a spread stance helps when you're going for normalmap generation and probably makes rigging easier as well.

A tri here or there isn't bad unless it's a high-deformation area. Generally anything you can get away with is fine.

[Thermidor]

i think im gona start to go for bent joints at the elbow and knees as well ... im pretty sure the nearer to the middle of a joints rotational travel you are in the pind pose, the better the deformation will be ... all though i havnt tested this yet ..

[Scott Ruggels]

bend the joints slightly, bt generally relaxed straight. as for th shoulders, everyone here (Castaway) models their arms at 45degrees out from the body, palms down. and ever so slight bend at the knees so that Maya can find the "]refered angle and heels fairly clost together but feet straight forward. So that the joints on the legs are straight on a plain.

Scott

[Thermidor]

i find the most relaxed for my own arms is palms forward when my arms are up , and palms facing down with my arms by my side , this rotation is in the shoulder , and only starts as the arms are lifted above 45 degrees, i think ....
this is the thing ive come to realise , there is alot of small rotations in the shoulder . anyway , anyone know about blend shapes then , i cant belive no one in the polycount crowd knows how to answer the questions i asked ....

[Thermidor]

Ive updated the face wire just above , done some reference study , and i needed to make the chin slightly narrower and some other small adjustments (mostly in the areas JK spoke of) ... are the ears too far back and are they still too far out from the head??

[Asthane]

I model pretty much the same as Scott says, with the arms about 45 with slight bends in the elbow/knees. Only thing that frustreates me is trying to model the hands on a 45 degree plane, sometimes I'll do them flat and then glue them on if it's really being a problem. Come to think of it, I seem to recall some program or another being able to set up a custom grid (and the ability to align camera(s) to it. Which was that?

As for rotations, logically, yes the closer to the 'center' of rotation you have your initial joints, the better they'll perform, but it's not that big of a deal, and it, in my oppinion, makes the job of modeling more of a pain such that I don't think it'd be worth it. Better to model in a straight-standing semi-normal pose so you have clarity in what you're getting. Sort of like modeling in Quads instead of Tris. Everything is going to be Tris anyway, and a model made in Tris may end up with a lower poly count, but quads are faster and make the model much clearer so you can see what's really there in a clearer manner.

That's what I think, anyway.

Though what you could do is model it in a traditional pose, give it a basic rig, move it into a more relaxed pose, fix the joints how you want them, then re-rig it from there. Sort of a primitive blendshape for games... This doesn't look like it's for a game though, and you're probably better off just using regular blendshapes. Not that I can tell you much about them, sorry.

Oh yeah, nice model /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Thermidor]

"Though what you could do is model it in a traditional pose, give it a basic rig, move it into a more relaxed pose, fix the joints how you want them, then re-rig it from there."

This is what ive done in the past .... and it normally works quite well .... i think ive always modeled hands and feet seperately from the rest , i dont know why , maybe rfor the reasons you descibe ...

And lastly DARN! , i really hoped you may know somthing about blend shapes , as you are tackling a very similar problem at the moment...

[Scott Ruggels]

I think the problem is that a lot of folks here are game animators and most game engines don't support blendshapes. That's more of a "Cinematics" thing. However the best book on blendshapes (yes it'sa book length subject), is Jason Osipa's "Stop Staring". It covers blendhapes driven by joint rotation as well as blendshapes done by slider, or controller, but there is a LOT of MEL scripting and node linkiong, It's not easy.

Scott

[Thermidor]

argh , i can node link , but scripting is right out for me ... the best i can handle is a simple expression. unless the only scripting is for making the front end for this , (the sliders) coz i can do that in the channel box ... ahh well , ill try and do without .. i think with sdk and bones that simulate muscular movement i can get farely good deformation. maybe ill get that book later when ive got some cash ...

[Thermidor]

ok , im trying to model a head using just quads , tryingto keep it light , but some areas im finding hard to get the topoligy right , around the ears mainly... at the moment its Pure quads , not a triangle in it ..

http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/topo1.jpg

obviously there is details to add , but i want to get opinions on the basic topoligy before i start..

[JKMakowka]

I absolutly don't get what you are trying to do with the front of the ear...that looks just wrong, and doesn't represent the 'flow' of the skin at that area at all.

Otherwise the edgeloop of the 'nostrils' looks not very natrual, the best solution to it is in my opinion to have a 'curl' at that place. Speaking about the nose: You have to alter the shape of it, right now it looks like the one of a baby and not like the one of a fully grown female (and so did your last version of the nose).

Last but not least, and that is really a bit tricky to do, I would suggest to make the edgeloop of the upper eyelit to NOT continue around the eye at the outer corner of the eye, but to go back to the ear (while the one of the lower eyelit has to be terminated somehow, or be moved inside the eye).
Oh and the eye area lack a edgeloop for the very prominet fold at the top of the eye.

[Thermidor]

there is no details in yet , like the upper eye , but i do think you are right to a certain degree about the nose .... ill look at more ref ... yes the ear loop thing is gonna be hard ...

[Thermidor]

arm trouble:

http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/armsetup1.jpg

Ok , im having troubles with this , its sorta the reason things have slowed down on this project ... hopefully my diagram is sorta readable and you can see that i have alot of joints in the arm , im using maya , how on earth do i run an IK chain through this and have it only afect the elbow joints but still pivot from the shoulder when i move the locator , do i make the IK chain from the middle of the upper arm to the middle of the lower arm and then move the IK end effector axis to the end of the arm? if so i would have to move the ik start up to the shoulder?? im pretty suck on this , anyone know?

Maybe this should be in 2d/3d discussion , but i figgured as my thread is here i would use it ....

[Scott Ruggels]

Limit the rotations of the shoulder joint So that it can"swing" and "flap", but not Twist. On the Bicep joint, limit it so that it can only "twist". Limit the Elbow so that it can only "swing", Start the IK chain from the soulder, and end it on the wrist. The wrist and hand, you probably want to do as FK, and the "radius joint" (Between Elbow and wrist), but a controller on it, so that you can twist it as a separate channel from a controller, rather than have to select it on it's own.


Scott

[Thermidor]

ahh Scott , i knew you would help ... so when drawing these joints ,does it mater about prefered angles? ... anyway ill try what you have said ... ive tryed it before but probly not exactly how you say , maybe it will work ... but thanks for posting /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Thermidor]

i must be doing somthing wrong , when i setup the arm , i do it as scott says , but when there is and ik solver attached to the joints on the arm , its can only be twisted by the twist channel on the solver ... yes? , unless i use FK , in which i cant animate with IK easyly. Ive messed with using a defferent solver to the IK/RP solver , but both dont seem to rotate the arm in the right place , this could be down to prefered angles i suppose ... am i missing somthing major here? at the moment my only work around was to use the twist channel and rotate the root joint of the arm , (as usual) HELP!

http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/omfgwtflmfaorotfl.jpg

This sortof explains what im trying ... (ish)

[Scott Ruggels]

You need to put a pole vector in the IF, that will take care of the teist of the arm. But also remember what i said about limiting rotation channels. Make the arm IK an IKrp solver, rather than the standar IKsc solver.

Scott

[Thermidor]

Thnx again scott...
Ive got a Pole vector controling the twist, but it twists it from the root joint, when ive got the joints limited , it just goes all screwy , as if its limited on the wrong axis.

[Thermidor]

take a look , this is with the joints limited , the root(shoulder) joint is YZX limited on X (the direction that points down the bone)

Blast.avi (http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/blast2.avi)

this is an IKRP solver, as you can see , the hand should be able to follow the hand box, if the arm was rotating between the shoulder and the elbow ....

[Thermidor]

http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/morehairtest.jpg

some work on the hair and face .... starting to think this may actually be near completion. still the same problems on the rigg ... but deformation is generally good , even with no skin weight painting.

more to come very soon /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Thermidor]

Ok , the hair is basicly a collection of alpha plains..

the first image is using the background adn 2 spots to light the scene , the second is using HDRI , as you can see the second give a much more realistic look , but the light for the transparency maps are being drawn from the HDRI map instead of the background colour ... so its making the hair look funky ... a fix anyone?


http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/comp.jpg

[Thermidor]

Ok this is where im at , ive not really done any texture work, i have done alot on rigging , and some small proportion work and muscular details. still need to do more hair, as well as re-rig the arms and legs to make the elbows and knees move better , but generaly things are looking better.

http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/big1thumb.jpg (http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/big1.jpg)
537k image

As usual , any comments are welcome.

[ElysiumGX]

If her abs weren't so defined, and her face wasn't fugly (one day she'll become a beautiful swan)...you could almost convince me that's a real person. Nice rigging.

[EarthQuake]

poses look nice, the model itself looks very.... rough or chunky or something, like it needs to be smoothed out or you need to up the resolution on your sub-d if thats what you're using.

[Thermidor]

yes , sorry , i forgot to mention this is for smoothing ... daz slapped me around enough for me to smooth after rigging , but these are just shots to check deformation , so i didnt do it ...

Yes , the abs may be a little too defined. and yes im not sure about the face , she is sorta plain looking , but maybe after ive textured her abit more , she will look better ... keep these comments coming ...

If i put some loose clothes on her , what should it be , it would have to be somthing elegant that shows the figure ... or should i just leave her nude?

ahh well thats a long way off still ... maybe ill make her a WW2 uniform for Scott , as hes been a great help /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MoP]

Great stuff Thermidor. This new set of posed renders looks excellent!

[rooster]

I concurr, very impressive! any chance of a fully smoothed beauty render?

[Thermidor]

hehe , its coming ... gota retexture n stuff ... still some rigging problems , but i had alook at the poly count , and its only 13k without the eye lashes.

[b1ll]

dude, that is nice fucking work.
I dig.

b1ll
benregimbal@hotmail.com

[Sean McBride]

Wow!!! holy crap. Very nice. Very impressive work therm.

[John Warner]

yah man, i gotta give props. the model has a few issues here and there but you've done a really really really fucking good job on rendering out the skin. some parts are looking closer to photoreel than i can get skin shades, that's for sure. (but i'm a color blind ass) in fact, i wonder what your shader is like?

i think my main problem with the mesh could be just her body type. she's very anorexic, and i kinda see that as being lumpy or bumpy..

[Daz]

Yeah this is definitely looking good Therm. The posing has a really nice feel. She has character. And why the hell are you worrying about polycount?! /images/graemlins/smile.gif And yeah, i'd put some clothes on her at some point!

[Thermidor]

wow , thanks for the replys !!
Its been a long time since i tryed to pinp any sorta real progress. but the last couple of days ive been able to do a bit of extra work on her, these more to come.

JW- Thnx for the kind words ... i would say some of it is down to my texture ... i have a lot of subtle info in there , im not happy with it but it helps... most of the skin realism comes from a: stahlbergs mimiking translusance skin shader , which is pretty nifty , but fairly easy to emulate (copy) and play about with. also , Daz has got to have the credit for showing me how to render properly. a lot of people told me when i pimped my portfolio that my rendering REALLY sucks /images/graemlins/smile.gif so i had to do somthing about it.
If you want John ill send you a copy of that skin shader...

Daz- haha i guess i was just curious about how easy it would be to get somthing like this in a game... what clothes? maybe i should do a poll vote /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[KDR_11k]

I think the main factor contributing to the realistic look are the diffuse maps. There's lots of color variation on her face.

[John Warner]

thanks bro. no worries on sending me over the stuff tho, i've been working with stahlberg's method for a little while.. i've just got to bring my texturing up to par hehehe /images/graemlins/smile.gif i should have known Daz had something to do with this! curses!

[Thermidor]

yeah , i got stahlbergs shader from reading a shed load of threads on topology at cgtalk...

daz was kind enough to show me how to render in mental ray... mayas software renderer sucks ass.

KDR - i tryed to get the colours to show areas that would be exposed to light as redish, and areas that are naturally white ive made a yellowy colour ... like around the pelvis and under the chin.

[swampbug]

Amazing stuff thermidor. I think the skinnyness of this model is AWESOME. Honestly, it shows more skeletal structures, more anatomy and to be honest.. its way more interesting than a perfect 10 girl. People see that shit all the time. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The top view of her head... amazing hairline! and hair. I'd love to see how that was done. Wires.. flats.. etc.

The lighting pass that isnt displaying the alphas in the hair properly.. actually looks cooler than the correct one. Much more interesting sillouette. hehe. Mistakes dont have to be fixed.. maybe take advantage of them somehow.

smashing stuff!

later

[Thermidor]

haha , swampbug , you are about the only one who like her skinny ... personaly i think its more of a challenge to make a skinny girl , rather than a fat one , on a fat character you can get away with so much bad deformation ... and just put it down to fat folds ... on a skinny figure every little deformation problem is very apparent.... the funny thing is , most of those latest shots are done with little or no skin weight painting, at the moment im trying to finalise the rig , and then im gona do some small tweaks to the model before retexturing her .... then there will be some proper renders , and animations.

If anyone can do a shoulder setup like the one im moaning about on page 3 of this thread please please contact me /images/graemlins/smile.gif
im almost out of hair /images/graemlins/mad.gif

thermidor_2002 AT hotmail.com to chat on MSN...

other contact info is on my website ... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Thermidor]

WOW! i had a break through ... ive solved the long standing ik controler problem ive been having ... and the idea came to me on the toilet!! ... to lots of you this is probly so newbie but hey...
well , i have tested it and it works ... its pretty simple and im imbarised i didnt think of it earlyer .... basicly i use a second control rig to control my first rig .. so i have connected the output of the bones on the second rig to the rotations on the joints i have on the first ... i supose its like having a rig to bind the joints to for deformation , and onother for controling those joints ... before now when somone said control rig to me , i thought of just nurbs surfaces that ik handles are parented to etc ... but this is great .. i can do so much with this.

Ill upload images when ive implimented it into the rig properly.

[Steakhouse]

You have grown in your craft today. Cogradulations.

[Scott Ruggels]

Looking forward to seeing what your rig looks like.

Scott

[Thermidor]

Ive hit another snag. where this secondary control rig does work .... its movement dosnt exactly mimik the movement of my bind rig ... its basicly to do with again me changing the rotations, so the (RotateX) bicep on my bind rig is rotated when my control rig rotates the shoulder (RotateX). argh , basicly im gona do away with IK , and start to use some sort of switcher ... not an ik/fk switch to blend animation tho ... just a switch for the usage.

i dont think an fk arm will be that bad, if i can use an SC solver i think i can use a FK rotate for the shoulder ... and still have IK move the joints ... i hope!!

argh!!!

[Thermidor]

Ive finnished the rig , just about /images/graemlins/smile.gif , and textured the model ... not im looking at some ways of improving skin shading , to get better results....

ive got almost perfect rig deformation without blendshapes, i looked into using blendshapes , and it would require another few months of learning the technique so im working smoothly with it before i could finnish this project. so now im gona use the pose deformer plugin from comet cartoons, its not brilliant , but its pretty good.

I really think i could get perfect deformations from the rig alone if i could get child joints to drive parents using SDK, but i think this isnt possible , unless im being really crap (which i conseed is quite likely)
http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/almost1.jpg
Maya Viewport pics, i think i prefer these /images/graemlins/smile.gif
http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/almost2.jpg

Still some small texture treaks i can do ... some streatching i should be able to fix.

[JKMakowka]

You know... it is quite freakish how on the one hand she looks really realistic, and on the other hand not at all /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Daz]

Looking great Therm. Emphasize the tan lines a bit more ;-0
The hair works pretty damn well. The pores in her skin seem a little over done, and damn I wish you'd smooth this thing /images/graemlins/smile.gif She feels like she's at an odd resolution. Somewhere between game and pre-rendered. I dunno, perhaps that's nonsense.
Congrats on finishing the rig. Blendshapes take minutes to learn, not months /images/graemlins/smile.gif But If you don't need them, it's all good. I'm sure the poor girl will be glad of some clothes one day :-)

[Thermidor]

JkM - tell me more /images/graemlins/smile.gif no really , the hand textures are just the same , /images/graemlins/wink.gif haha

Daz - yeah , i sorta learnt how to do blend shapes, but the work flow seems awfully un interactive. there is a plug-in to allow for sculpting on the real surface, but after that ive gota learn how to rig it all together, it would also mean throwing away all the work on my rig really . as i dont need such a complex setup for blend shapes. but i think over all it would give the best results, just like we see in Stahlbergs work.
Im so happy with this new shoulder setup , normaly I sorta copy the ideas of others for rig setup , but this was really my own making (well i copied the human system) Its quite complex but really works i think. If ppl think it might help them , i was thinking of making a small rigging tut, to show my system. its far too complex to show in a picture so i should make a tut of it, at least to help the people out there like me , who look at alot of forums, and all everyone says are little snippets, never the whole story. anyway , i dont know if this would be helpfull, or wanted , let me know.

The smoothing, ive got alot to learn here. she looks so lumpy when smoothed, i know this is coz ive got too much detail in there, but removing it seems to kill the defenition of muscles... but yeah , i should at least smooth for the renders /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Clothes .... argh , what to make her wear?

[JKMakowka]

[ QUOTE ]
JkM - tell me more /images/graemlins/smile.gif no really , the hand textures are just the same , /images/graemlins/wink.gif haha


[/ QUOTE ]

I knew you would say that the very second I pressed on 'reply' /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

One of the things that stike me as the oddest is the side view of the head, but also sverall other minor anatomical errors all over the body.

[b1ll]

This thing is cool, I said it before and Ill say it again, I dig it, Proportions are sweet, Different from stuff we see here, and thats cool. Because they work fucking well.

Its somehow realistic, not too much , so I love it. U WIN SIR!

[Thermidor]

Hehe , thnx b1ll, i think it probly comes from me being a anime artist in the past, drawing anime you have yo be realistic but not completely.

[JKMakowka]

Hey don't listen to b1ll, he is just a stupid fanboy /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Seriously fix the side view of the head, the ear seems to be way to high for example, the the way the nose is connected to the eyebrows looks starnge too... and that isn't just "different people come at different sizes" it is really anatomically wrong.

Still, overall it is quite nice, but it could be so much better.

[Thermidor]

JK- the nose eyebrow thing is just a texturing problem at most ... the wireframe of that part looks just fine, the ears ive made slightly smaller and lower/furtherback tho. it was a test, making them big and in line with the eyebrow and bottom of the nose.

[Thermidor]

Hey , ive done a really funky (as in it smells) animation, its to test the controls really , but also for me to try and get my head round animating on a computer (wich i have always thought was a big pain) anyway , the timing is way off , but any comments are always welcome. Its only 1.4 MB (http://www.zombiedesign.com/polycountbits/1.mpg)

/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[JKMakowka]

It really lacks a feeling of gravity... but since I suck at animating that is all I can tell /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Thermidor]

yeah , i suck at animating too ... i just cant understand some of the tools in 3d apps animation controls, i cant stand non-linier stuff, like curves to control movement dropoff, it seems that it was designed for programers to be able to animate , not animators. if i could i would probly change almost all of the things that make animation in maya, but that might just be coz i havnt got my head round it yet.