EA employee's spouse comments on crunch

[HellMark]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/ea_spouse/

I know similar topics have been covered here but was curious to hear more insight on the subject from everyone here. At my last studio we had crunch for a year and was told it was mandatory and if you're not here you're fired essentially. The game shipped (barely) but in the process I went through a bad breakup with my fiance and was laid off with a majority of our staff right after launch. It's been several months and I'm still feeling the backlash from those events from getting into a deeper financial hole and still looking for employment not to mention the world changing events inflicted on someone you spent years with.

Ultimately I think there is a balance to be found. With the passion and enjoyment that comes from working in games it's hard to draw a line and say my day ends here. It's going to spill over in some areas. I knew the risks involved and would take them again. But it's unfortunate to see the damage that can be taken.

[NoSeRider]

I know the EA employees went thru a 12 hour a day 7 days a week crunch as of Sept 20th till release of Lord of the Rings.....which people don't talk about...Soul?

I had inside info at a GNomon class I attended.

[eepberries]

"EA's bright and shiny new corporate trademark is "Challenge Everything." Where this applies is not exactly clear. Churning out one licensed football game after another doesn't sound like challenging much of anything to me; it sounds like a money farm."

That has to be the most truthfull statement about EA I've ever heard. I've hated that company for years. Not because of this, I had no idea the working conditions were like that. I hated them because they just come out with the un-inspired festering piles of shit every year.

[ElysiumGX]

During these crunch times, those employees seem to fall of the face of the earth. That's not a career I'm looking for. No one should go through that much trouble just to make a game. It's just a game!

[Sett]

This is getting just stupid now. If they give you a piece of the profit fine. But no profit sharing, work yourself sick, only to be booted out after release? No wonder they don't want anyone over 30. Anyone that old would say..."Ok, so this game grossed 20 million?(Halo2 did 200M just yesterday) and I get 27k AND you shitcan me?" "Where is that baseball bat?" Has the gaming industry become an exploiter of youth?
In any business the largest cost is salary. Why hire double the artists when you can just make the ones you have work twice as hard? As businesses get larger the tend to get less human. When the corporation cares more for the stockholders than their employees that when the exploitation starts.

HellMark- "...if you're not here you're fired essentially"
Did you get overtime? 12*7-40= 44h!
Couldn't you sue them for false dismissal?

Here's a thought- Unionize

[Kevin Johnstone]

I did hours like this at the start of my career on Driver PSX/PC. It's never worth it, there's no reward big enough to cover me for the lose of my life and generally there is no reward anyway, unless you count watching the boss drive to the office in a new porsche or ferrari a reward.

[Daz]

Post deleted by Daz

[NoSeRider]

Basically, these are the same tactics the Animation Industry use to use in Hollywood. Since alot of the EA studios are in California, I'd imagine the same a'hole executives that use to manage artists that did cartoons probably are managing 3D Artists too.

[eepberries]

[ QUOTE ]
eepberries: careful what you say there buddy. Whatever your dislike of the corporate monster that is EA, at least 4 or 5 or more folks on these boards worked on those 'festering piles of shit' that you speak of.


[/ QUOTE ]
Well I'm not criticizing the artists and programmers of the game. They're most likely the pawns of the operation (that's just my guess though, of course). The overall execution of the game will be good. The graphics will look good, and the presentation will be good. The problem is that the actual game itself will probably suck and be nothing more than the same thing the company sold last year with one or two added "OMG FEATURES!!1"

[Daz]

Im proud of some of the EA games Ive worked on as a gameplay experience ( Everything Or Nothing recieved critical acclaim for the most part. And no, it wasnt a re-hash of anything else we'd done the year before ).

This thread was about EAs working hours practises, not the quality of their games.

[palm]

Isn’t there a union or something for artist over there? If not, there should be one. It should be illegal to force your employees to work that much.

This is a really unhealthy culture for the whole industry and It always pisses me off to hear about stuff like this.

I’m not going to buy anymore EA games from now on.
Except Sims 2, just so I can get some time alone at the couth with a beer. :P

/Palm

[tpe]

Personally the trend worries me, especially as i have 3 kids to look after and have seen or been involved in too many casualties allready. I Can only wish us all the best of luck, especially those at the sharp end. Something must change for the better soon, if there is anything that i personally can so i will. I hope that the same is true of all involved...

tpe

[Paolo]

mmmm, don't need nearly as many antacids now that I'm back in academia!

[Ryno]

Well, as an interesting hypothetical to think about;

I've noticed that some people in the industry are a bit prone to depression and emotional disorders. (as are some people on this board) What happens when a few of their own employees start whacking themselves, or one gets really pissed off and takes a gun to work? Or perhaps a few die from stress-related disease? I'll tell you what.

Multi-Million dollar lawsuits. Bilion-Dollar Class-Action lawsuits. Stock value goes down the toilet.

You can only push people so hard before they can't take it anymore. In these situations, most people will just quit. But some people will die from it. And employers that helped to cause this type of situation will pay for it dearly. It'll be a terrible lesson to learn, but I think that this is inevitable if some companies don't change their ways.

[Daz]

"Multi-Million dollar lawsuits. Bilion-Dollar Class-Action lawsuits."

"And employers that helped to cause this type of situation will pay for it dearly"

You'd think that might be the case, but thanks to Bush and his cronies and the passing of prop 64, class action lawsuits will probably become a thing of the past. I dont think the big corporations have anything to worry about. They have the govmnt. on their side, unlike the workers.

[HellMark]

Sett we never got overtime. It was a start up studio so things were tight enough. As I said we crunched for a year straight and pulled 7 days/week for the most part of that with a few weeks of 6 days/week peppered in there. We had about a 90% staff reduction from layoffs after launch.

As for suing I heard some people were considering it but most of us just wanted to move on and find something better for ourselves and learn from the experience. Besides the studio had no money to give and filed Chapter 11 recently.

I'm hoping a good change can come from all this. I don't have much stake right now since I'm not working but I'd definitely be willing to do what I can to help make it better. Word of mouth I think can help but isn't the end all for an answer. Everyone here has been pretty discreet and honest (one of the things I like about coming here)about some of the bad experiences at certain studios. What they said has made me gun shy of some studios for sure. I wonder if that type of information affects the type of talent a studio can get and/or keep the talent they have long term.

[Dukester]

They know you are working this type of job because it is what you enjoy doing and it is what you want to do.

They are taking advantage of that. They also know that lots of never-had-this-kinda-job are waiting for yours to open up so if you don't like it you can be replaced.

You don't need a union. You need to change the mindset of the people on this message board who have yet to get a job.

I've worked less hours at my job when helicopters are grounded in Iraq and are needing parts we are supplying!

Sheesh!

[pogonip]

It's like any other type buisness . If EA starts losing top talent because of the way they run there buisness they will change . It seems odd to me though that if it is so bad there why so many film people have started to flock there . I guess doing 70-80 hr weeks for a steady,good paying,somewhat reliable employer is better then working 70-80 hr weeks in film only to get laid off and have to move ever few months . I guess as the old saying goes " could be worse "

Though I agree that if they spend so much time on there games they should be on par with what Blizzard is doing or another top studio . I think only Madden Football has that kind of respect ?

[AstroZombie]

Duke is absolutely right, except I will argue the whole "you don't need a union" part. Unions have been demonized in the latter part of the 20th century. A few of us together united will not make a change. There are too many people so willing and anxious to get into the industry that they will work for nothing and tolerate the abuse. A few of us united together will not make a change. There are less than 1% of us that are too "elite" to be replaced. For the rest of us, there are plenty of young, anxious kids ready to replace us. We need to unite and unionize to make change. Together we can make a stand, divided we will all fall.

[Dukester]

Look for the union label when you are buying that coat, dress or blouse.
Remember somewhere our union's sewing, our wages going to feed the kids, and run the house.
We work hard, but who's complaining? Thanks to the I.L.G. we're paying our way!
So always look for the union label, it says we're able to make it in the U.S.A.!

heh heh

I think Unions can be good. They were good for the auto industry in the early part of the 20th century now they are useless as far as the auto industry goes. In the auto industry, now the Unions are the bad guys. UPS workers went on strike to allow the Teamsters (mafia) to run their Union. (What a bunch of idiots UPS employees are! Sincerely they deserve all they get now) Unions are good in my opinion when there is some diservice being done. After a while they outlive their usefullness and just become a drain.

I'm not for Unions at all, but you game employees need to get something together wether it be a Union or just a bit of unity. 12 hour days 7 days a weeks is bullshit. I can see maybe one or two weeks of it, but you guys do put up with way to much crap!

[palm]

It’s sad to see that the unions work so poorly in the states. You US peoples seems to hate unions, so something must have gone terrible wrong down the road somewhere. In the end, you end up paying for it when you are forced to work every weekend while your boss are playing golf or picking up chicks in his new Dodge Viper.

Or get a heart attack by the age of 35, not knowing where you kids go to school, etc etc etc..:P

/images/graemlins/smile.gif
/Palm

[ElysiumGX]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to change the mindset of the people on this message board who have yet to get a job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm convinced. There are just too many responsibilities in my real life that would prevent me from taking that sort of abuse. From my past experiences with part-time jobs, I try to do the best I can, to the point that the company realizes I'm a valuable worker. I'm needed. Then, they'll work along with my needs, or they'll lose me.

It seems in order to succeed in the game industry, you need to be along that level. Having the talent and respect that allows you to stand up for yourself, so the company respects your needs for fear of losing you.

Many of the "kids" looking for their dream job in games, have just enough ability to be hired. Expendable youth. Too bad the quality shows in the product. Similar to how the ability to count will get you a job flipping burgers, while knowledge and skill will land a stable job as gourmet chef.

I'll wait a few more years.

[Kevin Johnstone]

I think the problem isn't truly the love what we do attitude making us do the long hours, I think it's the fact that when we get our first jobs everyone else is working those hours and we figure if we don't then we will get fired.

Most of us refuse after a few years to do too much crunch but the flipside of that is because companies like EA already control most of those companies where people are perhaps standing up for their rights, not putting in those hours causes the companies game to bomb or get canned and then the company gets canned.

It's all well and good saying we should stand together, but in this day and age you can't get 6 people to agree on the color of shite let alone a few thousand to agree on certain equitable and humanitarian work attitudes that suit all!!

As Daz mentioned, the idealist attitude that when serious crackups occur they will lead to government stepping in is just pure fantasy. It's not like the games industry is the only one being utterly screwed by the degree to which capitalism is being twisted.

[Sett]

Some good input on unions.

Dukester - for someone who is not for unions your shure know that song very well. ya commie /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Suing can be a problem too, if the word gets out that you sued your last employer. It could be tough to get new job.

If the co. that work for is young and hurting try this approch -"I will work 12 hours a day in exchange for stock." If they say bugger you then you know what kind of people you are dealing with. and where you stand in their eyes. If the are true entertainment purists they should let nothing stand in the way of the completion of their project.

I think the key is profit sharing. A worker who gets a piece of it will work harder. Use unions as a threat.

If these don't work, when upper management leaves at 5 -loot the fucken' place! Not even a doorknob.

[oXYnary]

Was it relic? Good comment they gave to the entry level people willing to work for free or very little.

"We Hire people based on how much they are worth financially. So your saying you are worth very little then?"

Nice gleam of hope in a sea of assholes.

[snemmy]

heh, maybe everyone should start pasting the link/contents of the link to every gaming messageboard, game news site, game related web comic, irc channel and every where gamers generally hang around. get it in front of a lot of these young kids who are being exploited for their youth/desire to get in the industry. get the entire game community talking about it. make the entirty of the community aware of these type of situations. get the gaming public complaining to the companies. etc.. etc..

absolutely NO ONE should have to go through that ever.

anyway, just a thought /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[nutsy]

"They know you are working this type of job because it is what you enjoy doing and it is what you want to do.

They are taking advantage of that. They also know that lots of never-had-this-kinda-job are waiting for yours to open up so if you don't like it you can be replaced.

You don't need a union. You need to change the mindset of the people on this message board who have yet to get a job."

As long as people want to do this for a livning no matter the cost, then dont expect anything to change.

10 years ago I would've given my left nut to be in this industry. I thought the same about animation, until I was in it. fuck 60-80 hour work weeks, especially with the promise of being laid off when the project is over.
The hard part is....If you are not willing to work the hours they deem necessary, then remember someone else is.

[Rick Stirling]

I think none of us mind a few weeks of late nights here or there, and a few weekends, but when it does get to 12 hours a day 7 days a week for months on end its just taking the piss.

Now I see the problem that some in upper management who arent aware that so many people are working those insane house, but they do see

X people + Y time = Z amount of work

They dont realise that Y time is double what people should be working, they just see the outcome. The next project is then sceduled with this imaginary level of productivity in mind.

[tpe]

One thing that would be helpfull would be to get some of the results of how productivity and working hours are related. It is difficult to find research on as most of the research money has been invested by the employer on how best to measure the number of hours actually worked to avoid cheating rather than how it affects productivity, but those that have a productivity measure inculuded have shown that productivity can 1, can be improved by reducing the hours that workers with a long hours work and 2, that there is a point where productivity actually decreases with increases in hours worked. i,e a person that works a long week actually produces less (through accidents, fatigue, unnecessary repetition, inefficiency or producing the wrong work) than someone with a shorter week. Unfortuanately most productivity management agencies charge for the info and usually wont provide anything unless they have a contract with the company in question. The gaming industry is still very young and hasnt started this type of thing much yet, i have had more experience with the pharmaceutical industry where it is common practice, but that may also be because the initial investments are larger so it is something that is more likly to be included in their portfolio when going to the bank. Perhaps you can find some data (I can try and find some from my old companies if you like) or sugest to the management that they approach one of the agencies?

tpe

[HellMark]

Looks like this is making the rounds in a few places. I initially saw this on evilavatar. GeorgeB at 3DRealms posted the info up on shacknews in their forums. He also mentions them working about 50 hours a week 5 days a week. With all that has been going on with DNF and so much riding on it I was surprised to hear it. Here's the post:

http://www.shacknews.com/ja.zz?id=8965013

A lot of feedback posts from it as well.

As Rick said there will always be the occasional late nights and/or weekends, something I expect and have no issues with.

Perhaps one big action might help start a change. Someone or some group with enough power that can inflict change maybe. With EA being so high profile it could garner enough attention to give a much needed wake up call.

Edit: Looks like CGTalk is talking about this as well. I know a lot of people here hit those boards but just in case.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=185703

[lkraan]

Damn, I feel sorry for the spouce /images/graemlins/frown.gif
I know my wife would go nuts if I would work that much.
But then again I would too. There isn't a job in the world that I would like to spend that much time on.
Making game art is great fun but I can imagine that the fun is gone pretty fast if you are forced to make it more than 60 hours per week.

[Daz]

Post deleted by Daz

[lkraan]

Daz, is your healthy attitude where you stand up to certain deadlines they ask you to make one that more people can pull off? If for instance a junior modeller would do the same would that be accepted or would he get fired?

[Daz]

Well, Im not doing it just for me, Im doing it for the rest of my team. I work alongside an Art manager now for scheduling. If she says 'how long does X need to make X?' then I'll think of the reality, flesh it out a bit, then flesh it out some more. Like I said, it's working for now. Lets see how it pans out when we push further into the schedule!

[Rick Stirling]

At a previous studio when we were asked to schedule, we'd add on a few extra days. Then the lead artists would add on a few extra days. Then management would say "too much time!".

They'd shave a few days off each schedule and leave us back with the schedule we wanted. We thought we were clever, until we realised that we had to LIE because we knew that further up the chain they'd be squeezing us.

[cochtl]

I wonder if it would be more effective and be more of a dramatic realization if an issue as alraming as this were distributed more readily to the masses.

the only thing i can thing of that can have a dramtic impact on a large scale would be to make a documentary similar to SUPER SIZE ME.

visuals are one of the most effective means of communication. word of mouth is not enough and unionisation or lawsuits are too time consuming and dont guarantee success. who knows? if more people knew what the little guys and underdogs do to their health and livelihoods just to make games and it became apparent not to just the people that work in the industry or aspire to be in it, then the greater a chance there is for change can be made.

[spacemonkey]

have you guys seen this? just another persons perspective after they worked at Ea.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/joestraitiff/

[poopinmymouth]

Relationships, and jobs, are all about being able to live with the faults. For some, the long hours are not enough to drive them away from the job they love. For others, the long hours are unnacceptable. For me, crunch is a temporary burst of extra productivity. I just experienced one of these. One weekend, a few long nights the weeks before, and then it was over. I was more productive for those few days, and it was short enough that it did not really wear on me. I have however been in an extended crunch, several months of mandatory long days, with most weekends included. For me that was an unnacceptable crunch, and I left the company. I knew I could find employment elsewhere, and I did not want to ruin my life by working long hours for months on end.
I think people need to stop waiting for a union or a class action lawsuit. Do not wait for someone else to do the legwork for you. If you work at a company that demand long hours and you do not want to, refuse, even if it costs you your job. You probably did not want to work their anyway. Like Daz has said, the power to work acceptable hours is your own.

[Daz]

cochtl: I wouldn't worry about this story not reaching the masses. It's all over the internet now. Slashdot, Shacknews, Bluesnews, cgtalk, IGDA.....

[Josh_Singh]

hahah I work for a studio that claims a "9 hour work day"
they asked me if I was o.k with that at my interveiw and of course I said yes, but in the back of my mind I catogorized it into the same place where "giving 120%" lives. If anyone asks I do it. But no one really does.

[HellMark]

Gamasutra is on this as well.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=4543

[Daz]

This thing gets bigger by the second. The internet is an amazing thing.

[NoSeRider]

Good!

Nothing like bad publicity to shake up the food chain.
I hope there's some major 'executive' firings.......of excutives.

[SouL]

oops

[Scott Ruggels]

Well we had that at 3do, even right up towards "The End". Mentally I am toast after hour 9, so I wiould sit and surf and order dinner on the company ticket. I had no relationships and no pets (at the time to go home and feed) so things were stable. if you went home early, it was like you "weren't putting in a team effort", but the artist all stopped working at a certain point, but they could not play games, because apparently it wasn't fair for the designers and programmers that were actually doing work after hours.

As to unionizing. It probaby won't happen. The Animator's Union lost some key negotiations when the studios found out they could ship the animation to Korea and Japan. (Thundercats' anyone?) the Labor costs moved the output of al the studios but the big three (Dreamworks, Disney, and Warner Feature) offshore. now with Disney spiking their 32D studio and format. All animation is gone, and the animators guild has a lot of unemployed members. The cost of the wages was too high. I for one will not give any money to an organization that contributes to the political opposition.

The other problems with unions in the states, is that they are really infiltrated by Organized Crime. And upon joining a union, you give up some rights, for the "power" of collective bargaining. Unions work well for "essential" industry such as food production, power generation, construction and The like, where they don't do wel are on less essential industries such as Entertainment, and retail industries.

Scott

[FatAssasin]

I had a similar experience at a smaller company, and know peopel at EALA that are working insane hours as I type this. I agree it's a problem, but I don't have any solutions other than those presented here already. Standing up for yourself is probably the best bet.

I also think that more people working in the industry should be more vocal about the working conditions at specific companies. If a company gets a reputation as being a "sweatshop", especially at the school level before kids get this starry-eyed impression of what it's like to work on games, then maybe they'll have a harder time reqruiting and change they're practices. The only thing that will make a company change is if there are negetive consequences for their actions, and right now there aren't any.

Putting my money where my mouth is, the company I worked for that worked us to death and then rewarded all the hard workers by firing them when the project was over was Black Ops in Santa Monica, California. If they're even still making games, stay away unless you're just starting out and need some game experience.

A company that I had a really good experience with was Treyarch, again in Santa Monica. We did work some long hours that I feel could have been avoided with better management, but overall it was bearable and I think it's a good company to be a part of.

[Dukester]

[ QUOTE ]
Dukester - for someone who is not for unions your shure know that song very well. ya commie /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! I do like the tune! I've been stuck on it for 3 days now!

[doc rob]

Thanks for laying that out, Scott.

I think that the only solution is to show the executives that their bottom line will be improved by treating their people better.

[HellMark]

Getting more interesting.

http://www.gametab.com/news/174082/

[Daz]

Yeah its official now. I saw it on Gamespot a minute ago.

It was filed by an artist at EARS ( incidentally, the statement that he was a member of the Sims2 design team is incorrect ) . I know I said earlier that i didnt think class action lawsuits would save us, because many of us are wary of what this means. It's all a bit uncertain right now. Its been underway for a good long while now and will most likely take years for much of anything to come of it. The ramifications are considerable ( and not all of them necessarily favourable by any means ). Legally Im probably not meant to speak as Im an employee and technically represented by the class action so I'll stfu ( and most likely end up deleting everything Ive written in this thread a bit later ;-p )

[peanut™]

I wanna thank each of you for the valuable information displayed in this thread. If all that im reading is true and i assume it is true, you can bet that i wont be buying EA titles for a at least 30 years, bad publicity like that can be really good for sale

Imagine an hot patato like that just before christmas pig billionaire money making machine season.

[FatAssasin]

It will be very interesting to see how this plays out, and if it has any ramifications outside of California.

[poopinmymouth]

Man what a great article from someone so experienced, I do not know of anyone who could dispute him. Here is my favorate quote "Any manager who put their team through more than a month of pre-ship crunch to get the product out the door should be getting a pink slip, not a promotion."

http://enginesofmischief.com/blogs/ramblings/archives/2004/11/11/643#more-643

[FatAssasin]

Hallelujah brother!

[Daz]

lol yeah poop. I think thats my new e-mail sig at work ahahah!

[lkraan]

Should game development studios get forced to follow normal employment rules (paid overtime, no more 7 days/12 hours weeks, etc) won't that result in more work getting outsourced to countries where the employment costs are cheaper and where labour laws are less strict?
The fact is that most of the big game studios are public listed companies so in the end all that matters is to produce at the lowest costs to get a maximum profit. If they can get the same job done elsewhere for a lot cheaper and with less hassle than I don't see why they wouldn't do that. Seems to work fine for GAP and Nike. Ok, manufacturing of clothese and shoes doesn't take a lot of intelligence and artistic skills but I can imagine that in countries like Korea and India these skills are available and if not people can be trained.

[Soul_Reaper]

It will most likely reach an even wider audience soon, as I would imagine the print media will be all over this as well.

Hopefully crunch times will be reduced, and those working them will be properly rewarded.

[spacemonkey]

sad thing is.. I send this type of thing around at work and I get abusive emails from other employee's who are prepaired to take it up the ass 'in the name of working in the games industry'.
Some overtime might always be nessacary however the long periods of planned for overtime that Ea have been dishing ut to their employee's is wrong.
Sure eventually the games industry work might all get outsourced to other countries with poor economies, but for the moment I am glad that people are willing to stand up for their rights.
Anyone else finding that some of their co-workers are die hard exetermists of mandatroy overtime??

/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[SouL]

That is an awesome article, poop. Good find!

[PaK]

Spacemonkey said:
[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else finding that some of their co-workers are die hard exetermists of mandatroy overtime??


[/ QUOTE ]

I used to be...then I realised that you can make cutting edge games, that everyone at the huge studios play at lunch for the same pay, with decent hours, and no unnecessary guilt trips or political finger-pointing manuevers.

There are so many wierd ideas floating around about why it's important to work for a large corporation (benifits, technology, good ad budgets, development systems, expierenced co-workers, big pay) I have most to be simply not true, or not exclusive to large studios.

I read the article (http://enginesofmischief.com/blogs/ramblings/archives/2004/11/11/643#more-643)by Evan Robinson that p00p posted. It's important to read this quote from tha article

[ QUOTE ]

any manager who leads his team into a death march has failed his employees, his superiors, and his company’s investors.


[/ QUOTE ]

I now work at a small studio with cutting-edge technology, very talented co-workers, and bosses with realistic expectations who learn from their mistakes.

They're out there guys, just keep your ear to the ground, we need to keep talking like this at polycount.

-R

[pogonip]

I think I would be willing to do those long crunch modes if I was going to work on a really Huge ambitious game that had a limited budget , but the manager was really cool and the people I worked with were cool and super talented and I knew the Game was going to be huge if we could get in all the assests and features. Then again im single and no kids so I can do stuff like that. If I had a family though I would hate to spend my life at work even if it was game development.

[NoSeRider]

[ QUOTE ]
(At Adobe, management worried when the turnover rate hit 18%. EA’s 50% is evidence of a grossly dysfunctional culture.)

[/ QUOTE ]

http://enginesofmischief.com/blogs/ramblings/archives/2004/11/11/643#more-643

Turnovers like that usually equate to alot of assholes. I've experienced high school....don't wanna live that out again.

[doc rob]

[ QUOTE ]

Anyone else finding that some of their co-workers are die hard extremists of mandatroy overtime??

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I think it's because some feel they can justify their job that way (because they may not be able to in other measurements of performance). It's tough, because you have to appreciate it if somebody voluntarily works ridiculous hours to get something done, even if somebody else might be able to do it in half the time.

[tpe]

I am really looking forward to hearing a reply or comment on how things have developed from the other side of EA, please if anyone sees it then please post it, it has also caused a fair bit of a stir in the few danish games companies that exist, generally the management is much fairer and much much more open to comment, there are some similarities but they are dealt with in a different way (for example an enticement to stay late is a very good dinner, that way you save an hour in washing up and preperation anyway, pier pressure keeps you from abusing it). There is one company that havnt been quite as good to their employees as they could have been but wod of mouth is much more powerfull here, so i wont mention their name just atm but they do not have the resources EA does so are likly to be made accountable in a shorter timeframe.

Unfortunatly i am working atm otherwise it would have been good to hear more about how our managment are looking at the developments (surely more rationally), perhaps next friday bar.

Whatever if anyone hears some kind of responce from EA please post it ASAP...

@ DaZ funny i have noticed a lot of what you were saying, and guessed from having been in similar positions the same about your position (BTW it is funny seeing how peoples reactions to your opininions change when you go back, for me it was amazing to find out from them how much i had changed my POV), it is the subject for many a long evening(s) over beer and pool, i look forward to it... Even though they speak a different language here i recon that the cultural differences between UK and US are probably more than UK and DK at least as far as the working ethics go. Whatever you are doing a great as ombudsmann, hope you (and all) kan keep grinning whilst bearing it...

tpe

[JDinges]

It's this stuff that makes me so glad I decided to pass on the studio job and do fulltime freelance (for now atleast), not that all studios are this bad of course.

I get to play with my son and spend quality time with the wife whenever I want, take breaks to go to the zoo and whatnot. Even though I watch my son all day and work at night, it's well worth it.

family > any job

[Daz]

It made cnet this morning. I keep refreshing the BBC's tech page. When its hit there you know its mainstream.

tpe: I dont think that we will see a statement from EA either internally nor externally on either the 'ea_spouse' story nor the artists class action. To output such a statement would be to admit that there is even an issue.

To be fair, I think the kind of company loyalty furver that I described above is a bit of a Californian thing as opposed to US ( although If you've ever seen that disturbing video of a close to heart attack Microcost exec rallying troops at a company meeting I guess I should extend that to other tech hotspots such as Seattle ).

Whilst Im here, Id like to specify this issue to one or two studio's If at all possible. I worked at EA UK for many years and was perfectly happy and never did much O/T.

It saddens me greatly to think that this phenomenon might deter people from working in videogames, or CG at all ( which is a reaction Ive seen on quite a few different threads ) ea_spouse is one persons story. Im not sayng it didnt happen as told, but its an extreme case. Whilst I have been fairly vocal in the past about how hard we have been pushed for O/T, I havent had it nearly as bad as people on other teams and I think ( hope ) things will be different now, particularly after the last few days.

The thing that bothers me most about the class action, is that it appears that it's wholly about money. ( and heck, wherever lawyers are involved its bound to be ) Whilst O/T pay is a factor, I think the point that EA really needs to understand is, that its not really about the money, it's about being 'forced' to do OT. It's about the <alleged> 'mandatory saturdays' or even sundays demanded of teams for weeks on end. I personally work as hard as I think I need to ( and want to ) and will never do a 'mandatory' anything anymore. The individual does have some control. Thats probably easier for me to say than some of the young guys, since Ive been at the company a long time, am known and well regarded at the company so my fear of being fired is negligible. But anyway, just trying to keep things in perspective.

[adam]

Employees readying class-action lawsuit against EA (http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/11/11/news_6112998.html) <--CLICK!!!

[poopinmymouth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Anyone else finding that some of their co-workers are die hard extremists of mandatroy overtime??

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I think it's because some feel they can justify their job that way (because they may not be able to in other measurements of performance). It's tough, because you have to appreciate it if somebody voluntarily works ridiculous hours to get something done, even if somebody else might be able to do it in half the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear that. I have seen it in several places. Artist A cannot create stellar art, so they make up for it by working insane hours. Problem is that most of the time Management sees them as a greater asset than artist B who does great art, on time, but goes home at 6.
Its some kind of lame badge of heroism, that "I am hardcore because I work 24.5 hours a day" It is not being hardcore, it is grinding your life down the drain.

[Daz]

I take it youve not read the thread Adam!

[NoSeRider]

[ QUOTE ]
"On July 29, 2004, a class-action lawsuit was filed against Electronic Arts Inc. ("EA"). This communication responds to earlier e-mail communications from EA management regarding the litigation. The lawsuit alleges that EA improperly classified some of its employees, including 'animators,' 'modelers,' 'texture artists,' 'lighters,' 'background effects artists,' and 'environmental artists' as exempt from overtime, and therefore failed to pay those employees overtime compensation. Plaintiff's action seeks statutory penalties, damages, restitution, and injunctive relief.

[/ QUOTE ]

I always thought that exemption to pay overtime was complete bullshit.

If they have to go after anybody, a big abusive company like EA should be a test case.

KILL KILL KILL KILL KILL

[tpe]

O/T @poop thats because managment (often/generally/all the time?) seriously can't recognise art from crap, no matter where you put it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[edit] actually one of my better managers agreed with the above and conciders it one of the managments failings even in himself [edit]

tpe

[John Warner]

before i begin: i just wanted to say that what i say about e.a is a generalization, taken COMPLETELY from what i've heard from employees that have worked there. some of that information is seccond hand, as well. i'd also like to point out that at least 2 of the most tallented artists that post on these forums (daz and soul) work there, so obviously i reccognize that theres some awesome stuff going on that i'd be happy to be a part of. that being said, lets get this rant started.

remember that post a little while ago where a board member (whargoul? no...) was talking about how they made it to the top of the industry and had no drive to keep at it?

and then fuckin tuboy got all fucking bitchy and told him he should be slapped for talking about the games industry like that?

E.A games, as far as i can tell, from my observation and from talking to the employees, has the un-spoken rule of hire them young and burn them out. they do this because the day you get sick of being stressed to the limit and being ABUSED as an employee, they know that they can replace you with some little idiot who'll preform sexual favors to get into the industry, causing stuff like this.

from what i've heard from the employees, E.A doesn't give a shit if you spend the extra time and do quality work (this is a generalization, im sure there are lots of good projects at E.A) there's not much room for artistic advancement, and most of the games have a 1 year production schedual. it's not about making quality games, it's about making mediocre stuff and marketing it to the percentage of gamers who don't know any better.

and their making a killing doing to haha.

so yes, i hear about this all the time, and it bothers me. i suppose in another few years the industry will be unionized and the pendulum will have swung in the opposite direction, which is just as bad..

at any rate. I wouldn't mind being corrected if i'm wrong about E.A. if it's a nice place to work, i'm certainly going to send my reel there in a month hehe.

edit-- after reading this thred, my opinions about E.A have been re-inforced. fuck that makes my blood boil. there's NO way in HELL i'm putting up with that shit for more than 1 year.

[Scott Ruggels]

Evan Robinson was the lead programmer in my first industry gig... Champions the computer Game... wow.. Small world.

Scott

[FatAssasin]

[ QUOTE ]
there's NO way in HELL i'm putting up with that shit for more than 1 year.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly what they're counting on, that you'll put with it for at least a year and then bring in a new batch of kids that will put up with it for another year. Why put up with it at all?

[NoSeRider]

Will you EA guys at least tell me wether or not you're making over 30k...or even 50k?

Trying to figure out if it's worth it....paticularly since homes normally cost over 450k in California.

[Rick Stirling]

An entry level artist would need to be making $30K, certainly in that area.

[PaK]

i know a guy (char modeler) who cant skin extrememly well who has 2 years exp in the bay that makes 65k

[HellMark]

This is copied from my post on CGTalk on this same topic. Thought I would share it with you guys here.


Here's another great example of what is wrong with the game industry.

From the most recent Game Informer cover story, the opening paragraphs of the Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks feature:

"For three consecutive days, Ed Boon and his team have not seen the light of day outside of Midway's Chicago-based studios. Amid the faint glow of computer monitors, we see the rings beneath programmers eyes and desks scattered with beverage containers and remenants of last meals. The feeling sinks in that we are witnessing the aftermath of a great battle that has been waged on the developement floor. Sensing our bewilderment with the state of things, we are quickly brought up to speed on the situation at hand, learning that the team had put the final touches on Mortal Kombat: Deception on the night prior to our arrival. Tunneling deeper into the workshop, we hear that several team members had purchased cots, one even equipped his office with a mini-fridge stocked to capacity with energy drinks. To maximize each day, the team even organized sleep shifts to get 20-30 mins of slumber before tweaking the code yet again."

Essentially it's things like this that glorify the death march of game development.

Granted this was towards the very end of the project where crunch is to be expected. But I'm sure many in the industry know this happens too much and not an the end of a project. Ed Boon is about 40 years old and when I read this all I could imagine was him sleeping under his desk on a $30 dollar cot at age 50. No offense to Ed Boon and the MK Team as I've been a huge fan of MK from the original and part of the reason I got into game development. To me there's nothing glorified about it.

To add some art/game schools even have their students go through a crunch period to simulate it as it would be in an actual studio. So early on it's taught to be the norm and acceptable.

[Daz]

entry level artists at EARS can make over 50k sure. The veterans can make well into 6 figures, although thats easier to achieve joining the company from film than games.

[Daz]

John: I suppose youre not a million miles off the mark. Whilst I dont think for a minute that all EA games are festering piles of shiat ( and I actually feel I've worked on some quality stuff ), it would be extremely hard to deny that EA's primary concern is shipping units. Heck, theyre a company, thats what companies do. But lets face it, as long as I work there, Im hardly going to be working on a Half-Life 2. Dev cycles tend to be a year, not five. ( personally Id like to meet somewhere in the middle but we cant have it all ) The yearly production cycle tends to put a cap on scope and quality for sure ( not to mention tends to create a long crunch period ). EA have aggressive ship cycles, and they dont budge.

That said, Id still like to re-iterate my last couple of paragraphs in my largish thread further up the page. It's not all bad! ea_spouse is a case that is at the extreme end of the spectrum, and it simply is not like that on all teams. I havent worked too hard in a while, I sure as hell cant complain about what they pay me, I have stock, bonuses, fantastic health care package, free use of an awesome gym. There are plenty perks.

Im not turning around and 'defending' EA here, but just trying to keep things in balance. It's not hell on earth. Its still a good paying job that I fundamentally enjoy doing. It just so happens that EA ( or, lets just say the Californian studios for now ) have a tendency to expect an awful lot from their staff, and crunch periods are too long. Hopefully however, the winds of change are on their way. Only time will tell.

[HellMark]

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/legal/ea-suit-could-change-the-face-of-the-gaming-industry-025586.php

[Daz]

"I wonder if a victory for the employees could lead to a gaming industry exodus from California?"

Hopefully an unlikely scenario, but you just never know. Which is exactly why there should be at least some trepedation with this lawsuit. We just dont what the ramifications are for a victory on either side.

I told Jamie a couple of months ago that he either has absurdly large testicles or he's incredibly dumb! Haven't figured out which, but all I can say is its pretty bizzare for him wandering around at work and having to look exec in the eye. That takes some guts.

If you want to read the details of the class action its now up here in PDF:

http://www.eaovertimecase.com/

[NoSeRider]

I remember when 60 hours a week was considered herendous.

Artists are so desperate that they're willing to take it in the butt and work 84 hours a week. There is only 168 hours in a week total. That leaves you 12 hours a day to take a dump, eat and sleep....and they probably aint pay'n for your lunch hour, so that probably leaves you only 11 hours of free time, per day.......no time to mountain bike, no time to surf, no time hike a trail....and if you're lucky you'll have time for sex.

Y'know, artists have got to stop thinking they're time and skills are worthless.

I had a teacher that said, I charge $50 an hour if somebody wants me so bad that it takes away from my free time.

$ 50 x 12 x 7 x 52 = $ 218,400 a year. Sounds fair to me.
And I was told that 10 years ago.

I've talked to other people that worked for salaried jobs outside of the game industry. They think 84 hours a week is nothing more then sweatshop hours.

You're more like Pedro making Nike sneekers in a 3rd world country, but more pay.

And Pedro probably doesn't have access to a computer. Most 3rd world countries don't have those luxuries. Art is usually considered frivolous and not a means to support a family in countries that are not fully industrialized.....I can see out sourcing possible in countries like Korea maybe India, but I don't see it happening in Mexico or China.

And Japan and Europe would probably charge just as much as US since they are fully industrialized.

http://www.eaovertimecase.com/Complaint.pdf

http://user.aol.com/zappazong/stuff/malice.gif
http://user.aol.com/zappazong/stuff/fraud.gif

[John Warner]

DaZ- thanks for the reply. yes, of course, i've noticed that there's some great looking stuff comming out of there once and a while. i'm sure that it's not a total mad-house.. and like you say, when you hear about these stories, they're comming from the disgruntled employees. happy people don't bitch because they have no need to.

this thred got my friend and i talking the other night.

i guess in the long and short of it, if you want to change something in the industry, you've got to dive into the current and experience the way things work first hand, so that you can get perspective enough to be able to change things.

my friend and i are set, one day, on starting up a company. he's got the idea that he's going to work for 10 years to get an understanding of the way things work, and then start 'er up. the question is, in a place like E.A, in one of the bad projects that this thred is describes, is it possible to learn anything about the industry above your every day nose-to-the-grindstone rutine? it would seem to me that any company that would like to see it's employee's working 84 hours a week might be the wrong place to learn about the industry. anyone have an opinion on this?

[Josh_Singh]

"....and if you're lucky you'll have time for sex. "
with another person!

Nose Rider, I completly agree with you. It seems like most artist have an infiriority complex about their stuff, and the end result is a wishy washy business sense. Dont get me wrong, It makes all the difference to ask for crits and be critical of your own work, but If you get hired at say, E.A. chances are you got some skills and deserve to be treated as such.

[NoSeRider]

[ QUOTE ]
Subj: IGDA: Quality of Life Issues are Holding Back the Game Industry
Date: 11/16/2004 6:31:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: qol_letter@igda.org (IGDA)
To: myemailaddre@mindyourownbusiness.com


-------------------------------
Open Letter – November 16, 2004

Quality of Life Issues are Holding Back the Game Industry
-------------------------------

Despite the continued success of the games industry, the immaturity of
current business and production practices is severely crippling the
industry. The recent frenzy of discussion over impassioned testimony about the
horrible working conditions within much of the industry attests to the reality
of this often unspoken disease.

As the professional association that unites the game development community and
serves as its voice, the International Game Developers Association is deeply
disturbed by this vicious cycle and is working to better the situation. Improving
the quality of life of game developers is an IGDA priority.

In tackling quality of life issues, it is important to realize that poor quality
of life is symptomatic of more fundamental challenges within the industry (e.g.,
consolidation, ever-evolving technology, one-sided contracting, lack of project
management expertise, no craft/job standards, etc), which in turn all need to
be addressed in order to truly improve our work/life balance.

What's more, game developers are sometimes just as much to blame for
submitting themselves to extreme working conditions, adopting a macho
bravado in hopes of “proving” themselves worthy for the industry. Our own attitudes
towards work/life balance and production practices need to change just as much
as the attitudes of the “suits.”

For those who are looking to unionization as an option, it is important to note
that the IGDA is not a union and cannot “become” one: the IGDA is incorporated
as a non-profit professional association, which has a distinct role from that
of a union. Further, as an international organization, the localized nature of
unions (i.e., often requiring state by state and country by country solutions)
is beyond our organizational scope.

It is unfortunate that it has gotten to the point of engaging in class
action lawsuits. While some industry workers choose such legal means to
gain retribution, the IGDA believes that a conciliatory approach is also an option.

The reality is that there are game companies that have proven that a focus on
quality of life can lead to great games, AND business success: BioWare, Firaxis,
Team17, Blue Fang, Cyberlore and Ensemble are just a few of the studios that
put as much effort on keeping their employees happy and healthy as on their bottom
line. These, and other sensible companies, realize that a strong quality of life
leads to more productive and creative workers. In turn, these workers produce
better games, and stay in the industry to share their experience with all the
passionate new recruits - helping to avoid common mistakes and recurring pitfalls.
Further, they realize that driving their people into the ground is a short-term
view that is not sustainable.

It is sadly ironic that those who strive for success at any cost don't
realize that mature and responsible human resource and production practices will
more readily bring them what they so desperately seek. That is to say, regardless
of the humane imperative, maintaining a strong quality of life is just good business.

The IGDA's white paper on quality of life best practices has already
served as a powerful tool, but it is only the first step. Via an upcoming “best
companies to work for” initiative, the IGDA will provide awareness of enlightened
companies and their practices so that others in the industry can learn from their
wisdom. Similarly, the IGDA will shine a light on the wealth of research and
knowledge being generated from outside the games industry.

To aid in these outreach efforts, the IGDA will be hosting a full-day
quality of life think-tank at the annual Game Developers Conference in
March. Also, we'll be encouraging our 80+ chapters from all over the world to
host local meetings and sessions to discuss and explore this important issue.

Further, the IGDA has two special interest groups that will help in sharing knowledge
and work on related issues: the Production SIG (working to formalize the production
process) and the Human Resources SIG (hub for HR professionals). The efforts
of these two SIGs, in addition to the ongoing work of the Quality of Life Committee,
will ensure a diverse perspective on solving quality of life problems.

This is only the beginning and we're still forming plans. We encourage
everyone to get involved. We ask that you contact us (qol@igda.org) to
volunteer, provide ideas, success stories, resources and any other relevant information.
In particular, the IGDA is requesting details on active and pending lawsuits
to add to our reference list online.

We have no doubt that with everyone's help and contribution we can save
the industry and art form we are all so passionate about.


Note: This letter is also available online at http://www.igda.org/qol/open_letter.php
and can be easily forwarded,
anonymously if desired.


The IGDA Board of Directors,

Bob Bates
Jason Della Rocca
Alex Dunne
John Feil
Mitzi McGilvray
Brian Reynolds
Jesse Schell
Kathy Schoback


Related Links and Resources
===========================

White Paper: "Quality of Life in the Game Industry: Challenges and Best
Practices"
http://www.igda.org/qol/whitepaper.php


Event: Quality of Life Summit: An IGDA Think-Tank
http://www.cmpevents.com/GD05/a.asp?option=C&V=11&SessID=4063


IGDA Quality of Life Advocacy Site
http://www.igda.org/qol


Winning Workplaces – Competitive Advantages
http://www.winningworkplaces.org/library/research/advantages.php


Article: “It's Not Just Abusive. It's Stupid.”
http://enginesofmischief.com/blogs/ramblings/archives/2004/11/11/643


Article: “Joe Straitiff's Journal”
http://www.livejournal.com/users/joestraitiff/2004/11/10/


Article: “EA: The Human Story”
http://www.igda.org/articles/easpouse_qol.php


Great Place to Work Institute
http://greatplacetowork.com/


Article: “Employees readying class-action lawsuit against EA”
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/11/11/news_6112998.html


Article: "Developer working conditions hide a cancer in the games industry"
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=dev&aid=3721


Article: “Programmer Sues VU Games Over Excessive Work Hours”
http://games.slashdot.org/games/04/06/30/1558238.shtml


Top 6 Work-Life Balance Books
http://humanresources.about.com/cs/worklifefamily/tp/worklife.htm


IGDA Global Chapters Index
http://www.igda.org/chapters/


Production Special Interest Group
http://www.igda.org/production/


Human Resources Special Interest Group
http://www.igda.org/hr/<br />
[/ QUOTE ]

[Daz]

A great read. "It is sadly ironic that those who strive for success at any cost don't realize that mature and responsible human resource and production practices will more readily bring them what they so desperately seek" is a particularly satisfying sentence, but Im also glad that the article includes the fact that as individuals we must also be held accountable for letting ourselves be taken advantage of.

I particularly like the anonymous forward button. It'll come in handy ;-p

[poopinmymouth]

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/tshah/PauschAcademicsFieldGuideToEA.pdf

LeJomphe posted this in the 2d/3d forum. Its an interesting read in light of the rest of this thread.

[FatAssasin]

"People at EA work long hours, in large part because of their great passion for making games"

Well, that clears that up. What's all this fuss about then?

I just read another article in the Seattle newspaper glorifying the 20-hour work day mentalitly. Granted it was about Halo 2 and was talking about the final phase of production, but it still made it seem like sleeping in your office was a cool thing to do.

[JonMurphy]

*currently eating dinner at desk*

Nope, I am not feeling any cooler

[NoSeRider]

I'd work 12/7/52 everyday if I got royalties, copyright benefits, stock and merchandise benefits.....but if all you got to look forward to is to get canned when the project is done, what's the point?

Has any artists become excuetives, besides the owners?

[HellMark]

LA Times article:

http://www.maxforums.org/thread.aspx?tid=273863&amp;r=27

[SouL]

Another good article. Thanks for sharing.

[PaK]

[ QUOTE ]

I can see out sourcing possible in countries like Korea maybe India, but I don't see it happening in Mexico or China.

[/ QUOTE ]

Noserider India is the largest third-world country on earth. Rat's lived in my mother's home growing up. She wasn't considered to be living amoungst the lowest cast either (far from it)

How can you 'not' see outsourcing to China when one of the largest game developers in the world has a studio there and shipped a AAA title from Shanghai (that's in China btw)


I think you can see outsourcng to India because it's happening and we've all heard about it, not because it is or isn't labeled as a 3rd world country (and it is).

There are more technically inclined and educated people living in China and India than there are people working in our slice of the techonogy industry in North America, all of the are worked alot harder than us, and make less than minimum wage (but over there a little goes alot farther, I've purchased a huge, tasty and healthy and hot meal from a hocker stand in asia for about $0.15 to $1.00)

Outsourcing is the ultimate reality for jobs that don't involve repetitive tasks that can easily be taught. Our culture excells (America most spacifically) corporate leadership, managment systems, innovation and creativity. Those are the jobs that most probably won't be outsourced.

I fear that a class-action lawsuit will mean the end of my career in the near future if I don't posses one of the above mentioned skills quickly. Chances are it'll force me abraod even if I do make it to the top where my job isn't outsourced -to train and lead the slobbering game development masses.

-R

-R

[HellMark]

NY Times has an article as well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/busine...ner=rssuserland (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/business/yourmoney/21digi.html?ex=1258693200&amp;en=40a60cc6d7971ab2&amp;ei=5 090&amp;partner=rssuserland)

As far as outsourcing goes I think it's going to happen and keep happening regardless of a lawsuit. I rather focus on making improvements that we all can enjoy instead of worrying about running the gauntlet on eggshells to beat out someone who might take my job for willing to work for pennies and under poor conditions.

Chances are Pak that if things don't change it will be the end of your career and many others anyway. The IGDA report shows half of us leaving the industry in 10 years. How many guys do you know in the industry right now that is around age 40 or beyond? Yeah the industry is still young but old enough to start seeing some of these guys getting older trickling down their experience and seasoned talent to others.

[rawkstar]

[ QUOTE ]
And all for what? So that you can make a video game? A video game that has a 90% chance of failure, no matter how great your personal contribution. So that some fat kid can sit on his couch all afternoon instead of going outside to play Cowboys and Indians? So that you can walk by a box in the bargain bin and nudge your buddy in the ribs to let him know you created some insignificant piece of artwork buried deep somewhere inside that CD where no-one you know will ever see it? And you yourself will probably never even play the game. After working on it so long and so hard you only hope to forget the experience and move on to the next chapter of your life. And even if your game does become a success, what does that hold for you?

Can you trade in that success for anything worthwhile? The most you can hope for is that the bullet entry on your resume will buy you another job doing the exact same thing, working the same long hours, but for a different company. And round and round game developers go, until they become burnt out and leave the industry, taking all their accumulated talent with them, to be replaced by a new batch of bright eyed and bushy tailed, yet inexperienced developers. It is no wonder there are so many crappy games. It is the same reason there are so many crappy hamburgers at McDonalds. Same business model.

[/ QUOTE ]

trippy... but true.

[SouL]

My experience with the company has been fairly rough. Not to the same extent as the claimed 82 - 84 hour work weaks... but still quite bad.
When I started off on my first project things were fine. Normal 10 - 6 hours were good for me. About 2 months into that I saw myself slipping more and more into the late hours. Eventually I saw myself coming in at 10:30am - 11am and staying as late as 12am - 1am. That's about 13 hours. But you also have to include my commute. I commute 1.5 hours to get TO and FROM work.

My schedule was like this for months on end:
08:00 am Wake up for work
09:00 am Leave home
10:30 am Arrive at work
01:00 am Leave work
02:30 am Arrive at home
03:00 am Fall asleep (you have to factor in a good half hour for me to get ready for bed. Brush teeth, shower, etc)

That roughly gave me 5 hours to be at home. No. Not to be at home.. to sleep at home. I rarely saw my family on the weekdays. I'd occasionaly catch my father watching TV late at night but at was it.

The unhealthy hours I put into work was actually quite life threatening. Becoming very drowsy driving home late at night quickly became normal as the months passed by. I never thought much about it then. I always thought to myself that as long as I knew I wasn't falling asleep that I'd be fine.

This went on for months. Then it came. We were told that Saturdays were mandatory. Instead of having the entire weekend to catch up things and take care of shit you need to do in order to live... I only Sunday to do that.

I didn't like it one bit. But it was being asked of me. And being the complete idiot I was I did my Saturdays. Don't get me wrong. I may have been pissed off about the hours I gave away to EA, but I still put in 100% into my work. Thinking that at the end of it all I'd be rewarded with something that would justify the insanity I went through.

And so our game nears its deadline and everyone is excited. Not because the game is about to be finished, but because finally everyone on the team could finally take a break and go on vacation. Everyone on the team had been crunching for several months already.
We all get pulled into a meeting. Expecting the good news. And what we got was an absolute bomb shell. Our game's release date got pushed back. Needless to say, no one was happy.
We all pushed hard, put in insane hours only to be rewarded with what? More work and more hours. I shrugged it off and did my hours. STILL hoping that something good will surely come at the end of it all.
Eventually the game gets finished. And I was given a mere 2 weeks time off and a measly pay raise. Not to sound arrogant, but everyone I can reference can attest the level of talent I brought with me to EA. Specialy when you compare the quality of my work compared to the other artists on the team.

So the first project finishes. I take my 2 weeks off and come back to work. During the next 2 months or so, I get shuffled around a few projects before finally ending up on my 2nd official project.
This is how EA works after current projects are finished and new onew are started. Employees are simply thrown into the projects that need the most man power. No questions asked. You're simply notified that you're heading for a new project and that you'll be changing managers. There are exceptions to thise, but are usually reserved for the more senior employees. But even that requires a fight.

So anyways... 2 months after I came back to work, I was finally ready to start my new project. The project had already started before I joined and I believe had already been going on for about 3 - 4 months. I was put on the project because they were in dire need of character artists.

As usual... my schedule started off fairly slow. But just like the previous project, I quickly started seeing myself staying later at the office. And just like the previous project, everyone in the team was pulled into a meeting and was informed of the upcoming mandatory Saturdays. No big deal, right? But you're probably thinking that this is coming up a month before final. You'd be surprised.
Mandatory Saturdays were in effect 6 (SIX) months before our targeted release date. Not only were Saturdays mandatory, but "core hours" were also being enforced during Mondays - Fridays. Core hours meant having to be at work at 10am sharp and leaving whenever your tasks for that day were done. Which roughly translates to past midnight.
Now, bear in mind my hours, and I was fortunate to have a manager that understood this. So I continued on with my usual "get to work before 11am" routine. But at the same time I was also giving them a bit of a "fuck you" because I would sometimes leave "early" (around 8 or 9). /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Several weeks into crunch, I'd learned that a friend of mine was going to be in town for a week. So I decided to leave work very early to go see her and some friends. The following day (I arrived around 11:30am), I see an e-mail in my inbox that was sent to me around 10am. Asking me to phone the person (not my manager, someone else in some type of management position) when I got in. So I did. The first thing that came out of the person's mouth was: "Did you just get in?"
"Yes."
And the person goes on about how I NEEDED to be at work by 10 and that I also NEEDED to stay late because we were on crunch. I can understand asking me to be at work by 10 since that was a given. But how did the person know I left early the previous day? There was no e-mail in my inbox that required my reply when I left early the previous evening.
This really pissed me off. I kept silent while the person rambled on the phone then I simply hung up.

I suppose you can argue that I did come in late. But you sort of have to put things into perspective. I'd already been working hard the previous weeks, putting in more than the required hours. What happened then was a 1 time deal. What? Just because a team is on crunch I'm not allowed to see my friend and enjoy a normal night out with people I know? And so what if I came in late that day? I was (and still am) never late for any kind of deadline.

The project pretty much went on for the next several months with everyone putting in late hours. The engineers had the worst because they were being give an enourmous amount of work on a daily basis. And I kept going with my hours. Though, I still did late nights more often than not.

The 2nd project was worse than the first because the 2nd project was littered with cheesy pep rally meetings with upper managent putting up a horrible attempt to boost morale among the team.
We all knew what we were making. We were making an incredibly questionable game and putting in late hours for it. Hearing management lie through their teeth was painful.

Eventually the product shipped on time. Not because our crunching paid off, but because the company amassed such a large team near the end, it was impossible to NOT finish on time. The size of the team was in constant growth throughout the 6 month crunch. Yet we were all still required to put in a lot of hours for 6 days a week.
That right there says 2 things about the project. There was too much to do and too little time to do it in. AKA shitty management.

I got nothing except another shitty pay raise from that project. To be honest, "shitty" is putting it nicely. Look at it this way... the increase in my paycheck is not even enough to cover a week's worth of lunch.

And here I am now. On my 3rd project taking it as easy as I possibly can. I've learned my lesson from the past 2 projects. I'm not going to be the one getting abused again only get nothing at the end of it all. I do 40 hours a week. Play games, watch movies, and take frequent breaks when I want. And even with doing all that I'm still able to get things done on time.
I'm feeling quite good to be honest. There's no stress from work. I'm eating healthy. I'm actually able to eat a home cooked meal for dinner now. And my social life is ramping back up because I now the free time to enjoy my week nights.

[Edit] Note the rapid pace at which things are done at work. I've been working for 1.5 years. And already I've been able to ship 2 full games. 2 games in 1.5 years. That isn't right.

[rawkstar]

SouL... you deserve to work for a good company. all you have to do now is find one.

[poopinmymouth]

Dang man, I feel for you, I have done the mandatory saturday and mandatory Sunday bit, for several months, and it sucks big time.

[Vermeulen]

That was a really good read soul, i can't imagine how someone could bare that for a job in the industry

[HellMark]

Great read Soul. Thanks for sharing. That does suck and you should strive to get a better situation for yourself.

As artists aren't we suppose to get inspiration from outside of the job through things such as seeing the outdoors, seeing a movie, playing other videogames, etc.... Just sounds like so many are simply getting robbed of life and for many their youth. Makes me glad I got in the industry a bit older than I was originally hoping to.

[Pseudo]

Thanks for taking the time to write that Soul, it was a good read.

[Kevin Johnstone]

i hope you are using some of that time off to put together a new portfolio and look for another job.

Really; a lot of us have lived through similar stories, there are better places for you out there.

[Daz]

I've been telling him that forever, but he doesn't seem to want to do anything about it.

Im highly confident that the Bond team wont be doing these kind of hours this year. I haven't personally worked really hard in forever, and neither have alot of people I know. LOTR had a fucked up evil regime. I see changes allready, and exec are clearly worried about the tarnished company rep. As they well should be. I still think the best way to handle this is to simply not do those kind of hours, en masse. Still no word from the inside on this story hitting the papers, but for once, Im actually looking forward to the next company meeting, 'cos Im dying to know what they have to say. Will let you know.

It's interesting to me that most games that feature 'forced' crunches at EA tend to be crappy. Catwoman, 3rd Age, the upcoming Goldeneye2. It's almost like the workforce are subconsciously saying they just dont give a fuck. Personally, I think a better way to say it would be to just not do the hours.

It'll take time, but EA are gonna lose this lawsuit, I just know it. They are clearly classifying artists incorrectly as exempt. So I wonder If they'll end up pushing their studios out of California. Interesting times in the industry thats for sure.

[Scott Ruggels]

Daz, the story has hit both the L.A. Times and New York Times. I can dig up the links, but yeah. It's hit the mainstream Media (MSM).

Scott

[Scott Ruggels]

Soul, I know where you are coming from.

Scott

[oXYnary]

Man, with these stories. I might not make it long. I have a tendency to push back if pushed too far.

Oh well, Im just trying for a couple of years for the experience before going off to grad school. Hopefully with a small developer.

[Daz]

Yeah, I actually knew last week which papers it would be in today ;-) Check the San Jose Mercury too.

[thomasp]

hopefully open statements like those by you, daz and soul won't get you into trouble with the bosses there.

i really can't understand how a company this large believes to get away with treating their only valuable asset, their employees, like that. i could understand if some start-up studio does crunch time on their first project(s) because of lack of experience in project scheduling - but i would have expected a very different handling of these matters from an industry-veteran like EA.

well, another company to put on the "never apply there, no matter how shiny it looks from outside"-list, i guess.

[MoP]

thomasp: or rather, don't apply if you're just starting up as a game artist. sounds like if you join as a lead artist or more of a management type, you will do pretty well...

just wondering, do all the people who order the employees to work weekends and stay until midnight, actually work till midnight and weekends themselves? Or do they go off home after telling everyone else to stay?

MoP

[KDR_11k]

I know 100% what crunching for more than a few weeks would do to me. I'd snap. I was pretty close to snapping after a week in the military (where we worked similar hours), when I was dismissed. That's why I don't consider the games industry an option. Hell, the pressure of having voluntarily signed up for an amateur game project already gets me (because I'm afraid of spending my time away from the computer because I feel guilty for not working on the project even though I have almost no time to do so...).

[Daz]

MoP: Generally the managers that ask it tend to do it too yes. I wouldn't really agree with your statement though. The leads and management work just as hard as the noobs and vice versa. I put in way more hours than any of the other character modelers on Everything Or Nothing. Not only was I scheduled with the same amount of work as them, but I had all the various duties that come with being a lead too. Plus I tend to get in at 9.30. I always took work home at weekends and did a bit more then too. Silly when I look back. My insane commitment to that project however, was by choice. Which is a very different thing than being forced to.

My sentiment of not working too hard for a long time, is founded on the fact that I never worked on LOTR. As I said before, the 'regime' is different from team to team. And heck, SouL might freely admit that he's not done an awful lot for a couple of months now Im sure. Doesn't excuse what happened in the past though.

[SouL]

Heh. To balance out all the shit I've written... I will say that there are a lot of times when work can be fun.

On Everything or Nothing, the character team almost always had something to laugh at late at night. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Hahahahahaha I'm not going to say what, but DaZ knows!
But that's only cause we all got along well with each other.

LotR late nights were very different. Late nights on LotR were very bitter 'cause I was usually at the other end of someone ranting away during dinner. Haha

Right now... I haven't done a damned thing at work. For the past month all I've been doing is strolling in around noon, popping in a Sex and the City DVD, and leaving at 6.

It's not all shit all the time. There are good times to be had. That mostly comes from the people you work with. Not so much what the company provides.
But that still doesn't mean we have to put up with horrible hours and bad management because we're having a few laughs on the side.

[Kevin Johnstone]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/11/19/news_6113582.html

The wheel keeps turning

[PaK]

I worked at a major developer that took all this one step further and required the staff to lie on their time sheets, and put in 8 hours regardless of how much we worked.

I was a lil' nervous back then so I complied, but what was much worse than the overtime was the intituionalized fear that SouL mentioned. By far that was my biggest problem.

I agree, the ridiculus pep talks and free liquor doesn't mean a thing. I'll never fall for that again.

-R

[Daz]

Yesterdays front page of the San Jose Mercury. If you want to keep this image grab it now, since Im not gonna leave it up on my site for long

http://home.comcast.net/~dpattenden/images/FrontPage.jpg

[ndcv]

Excellent! Getting some serious press... I think the Seattle Times had a big article on it too, today at Thanksgiving a couple people in my family mentioned it.

[b1ll]

AHAHAH SOUL, dude, Ea sound just like Ubisoft AHAHAH

WOW, Ya, Its insane, At first I put up with the same shit, then I realise, Woah, theres no way Im going to do thoses late night and weekend, so I didnt. I still was always in time for my deadline, and producing good characters.

But I got bad looks because I wasnt staying late or comming in weekend, Bahhh (and less bonus ya, and bad evaluation too, "Awesome art, but BAD ATTITUDE", because i wasnt staying late.)

Its quiete a poopish industry, I've seen, and I know many at ubi, that stayed sooo late and work weekend, because they think they will loose their job if not.

In ur time sheet, You had to put 8hours everyday, Even tho u were doing mad overtime. That is not only a money problem, bbut when u do this, theres is no way to realy calculate how much time it takes to realy do a project properly.

Of course, i had some good times here and there, great people , a lot of great people.

Bah, I quit earlier this month, tooo much work time , or none at all. Still Good experience , learned a lot, meet a lot of cool people, and saw alot on how the industry is Poopish.


b1ll

[Daz]

And lets not forget of course b1ll there is also no quarantee of a good bonus even If you *do* put in those crazy hours.

[Malekyth]

After putting in a lot of crazy hours, I got a great bonus, but if I had to do it over again, I'd have gone home earlier ...

I used to be one of those elitist kiddies who sneered at the older folks who spent more time with their faaaamilies and liiiiives and all that bulllllshit than what really mattered, their art and their careers. Why couldn't everyone be as hardcore as I was?

Years later, I have high blood pressure and can't sleep at night. My chest and head hurt too much of the time and I'm overweight. I'm stressed and frantic yet I still don't get my way or call any shots. Nothing I make belongs to me, and I don't have enough energy left at the end of a long day to make anything that does.

Pooooor me! :P Sorry, I had to list my symptoms for my last paragraph to have a point:

I'm not blaming the companies I've worked for, only myself. I've been lucky, maybe even charmed, to have landed the gigs I've had. But even so, to get through this business intact, I've been thinking lately that the answer is to be merely a good employee, not a superior one. Be reliable and awesome and work hard -- for 8-9 hours a day, five days a week. You'll probably fail to get the trimphal reviews, which in my experience are reserved for the ultra-hardcore, but you'll keep your sanity and your health, and a few extra dollars a year won't save you from that aneurysm ready to pop through your temple. IMO.

[b1ll]

Yes exactly Daz, Theres is no garantee at all the bonus will be good, Infact theres no garantee you'll get a bonus anyway.
Lame!

[PaK]

The whole bonus thing pisses me off. It's fooled alotta my ubisoft friends into staying the long haul there when they can so 'easily' get better pay (Ubisoft employee's were so horribly underpaid) which would make up for the lost 'bonus'.

-R

[AstroZombie]

Recently completed a project on a tight schedule and I am suppose to receive a rather nice bonus for it. However, as my girlfriend pointed out, once you figure in the late nights and weekends the bonus probably wouldn't cover what I would have got if I was paid overtime instead.

[FatAssasin]

At Black Ops, working on T3, we all got "points" for staying late. You got one point for every fours hours overtime, but it had to four consecutive hours. So you couldn't work two hours one night and two the next to recieve your point. These points were supposed to be turned in for a bonus at the end of the project. The more points you had, the bigger the bonus.

I'm sure you all can guess the end of this story. At the end of the project 80% of the team were laid off and zero bonuses were given out. Unless you get something in your contract, it's just an empty promise.

[Mojo2k]

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/11/19/news_6113582.html

"Not everyone sympathizes with game industry employees, who sometimes pull down six-figure salaries.

"Go to (McDonald's) or a factory, then back to your air-conditioned offices with free coffee," one responder to last week's blog posting wrote. "

that line pisses me off, i've worked 3 years in a sawmill, 2 in a fast food resturaunt, and 3 in a grocery store, i've worked my way out of it, whoever wrote that must think that game jobs are just handed to the few special lucky people, and that its not really work, nice how it says some of game industry people make 6 figures, i bet some people who work higher up for mcdonalds make that,

[Malekyth]

Almost everyone I meet whom I tell about my occupation automatically assumes that I "play games all day". No wonder that 'responder to last week's blog posting' seems to assume that our jobs our luxurious and effort-free: everyone else does!

[Kevin Johnstone]

Yet noone assume's movie directors just watch movies all day.(It's probably that simple though eh?)

[Rick Stirling]

ror - or eat Salmon or Chicken all day?

I had a taxi driver once say that all I did was sit on my arse all day.

[Dukester]

lol! that's what taxi drivers do /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[FatAssasin]

EA responds to spouse outcry in leaked company-wide memo (http://news.spong.com/detail/news.asp?prid=8061)

[Frank]

[ QUOTE ]
We are looking at reclassifying some jobs to overtime eligible in the new Fiscal Year. We have resisted this in the past, not because we don’t want to pay overtime, but because we believe that the wage and hour laws have not kept pace with the kind of work done at technology companies, the kind of employees those companies attract and the kind of compensation packages their employees prefer. We consider our artists to be “creative” people and our engineers to be “skilled” professionals who relish flexibility but others use the outdated wage and hour laws to argue in favor of a workforce that is paid hourly like more traditional industries and conforming to set schedules. But we can’t wait for the legislative process to catch up so we’re forced to look at making some changes to exempt and non-exempt classifications beginning in April.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting that they consider artists to be "creative" and engineers to be "skilled." I'm hoping they're just ignorant to what putting quotes around a word really means.

Additionally, he's saying that creative and/or skilled people don't want to be paid for overtime? That they'd rather get an occasional bonus or something? Pretty out of touch. And that sounds to me suspiciously like 'If you want overtime, we'll make you hourly employees with set schedules. So take your salary and shut up.'

Frank the Avenger

[Kevin Johnstone]

That was a long email to say nothing; well other than 'we've no idea what to do yet, but we are thinking about it'.

[adam]

Hey Soul, I haven't read much of this thread but I caught your post. Dunno what to say, I feel for you man. And I'm glad things are on the up-and-up.

[HellMark]

Rusty Rueff sounds like he should be running for office not running a game company.

[FatAssasin]

I think what they're really saying is, "Please don't sue us".

[Ribking]

My first industry job went as far as to not only demand the ridiculous amout of hours be put in, but also hired most of it's artists (including me) as what they called "full time freelance" artists. Basically means we were hired on as consultants, and got no health benefits. On top of that, most of their artists (including me) only got paid around 25k or less.
It was a glorius day when thirteen of the fourteen 3D artists working there at the time (including me) quit (some quit right there on the spot, others gave their one or two weeks notice) on the same day. I've been told that the employees are treated much, much better ever since.

[Daz]

Rusty Rueff doesn't run the co. He's the global head of HR, but point taken.
Sounds like that would have been a satisfying day indeed Ribking!

[ndcv]

Frank - the "skilled" and "creative" bit is in there because that's how federal (and I would imagine CA State) labor laws are written. You can make pretty crappy wages but be an exempt employee if you are either considered "creative" or "highly skilled".

Pretty funny how he left the quotes in there though... the whole tone of that memo sounds pretty belligerent and defensive, and they steadfastly aren't taking any responsibility for the fact that there are other studios out there whose crunch time doesn't even come CLOSE to what theirs is like

[Daz]

Whats problematic to me about the "creative" label, is that it suggests that artists are these sort of free spirits that have control over their own workload, approval and finalling process and ultimately hours. The reality however, is that they make what they're told to and when. And its finished when someone else says so. So it's a complex issue.

Indeed the tone was unsurprisingly pretty defensive Andy. However, for the phrase "the heart of the matter is a core truth" to be uttered from him is pretty staggering when all we usually here at company meetings is 'number one people company'. Somehow I doubt we'll be hearing that phrase for a while.

[Josh_Singh]

Post deleted by ghost_rider

[Josh_Singh]

[ QUOTE ]
"And all for what? So that you can make a video game? A video game that has a 90% chance of failure, no matter how great your personal contribution. So that some fat kid can sit on his couch all afternoon instead of going outside to play Cowboys and Indians? So that you can walk by a box in the bargain bin and nudge your buddy in the ribs to let him know you created some insignificant piece of artwork buried deep somewhere inside that CD where no-one you know will ever see it? And you yourself will probably never even play the game. After working on it so long and so hard you only hope to forget the experience and move on to the next chapter of your life. And even if your game does become a success, what does that hold for you?

Can you trade in that success for anything worthwhile? The most you can hope for is that the bullet entry on your resume will buy you another job doing the exact same thing, working the same long hours, but for a different company. And round and round game developers go, until they become burnt out and leave the industry, taking all their accumulated talent with them, to be replaced by a new batch of bright eyed and bushy tailed, yet inexperienced developers. It is no wonder there are so many crappy games. It is the same reason there are so many crappy hamburgers at McDonalds. Same business model."

[/ QUOTE ]


Man that quote made me so depressed when I read it at work. I had to actually step away from my computer and go outside to take a drive. I think alot when I drive. This whole thing is getting crazy man. I want to be in the game industry. I want to make games for the rest of my life. I want to be an artist working in greater and greater capacity as my career matures. So far I have been very proud of what I do, and the fact that I can earn a living for me and my small family by doing what I love.
This industry is so young, I know that we who are in the industry now will be the "Stan Winstons" and " Ray Harryhausens" of the next generation. Getting "Life time acheivement" awards and whatnot. But that's the future. Shame on whoever thought up "crunch" why did we all get into this business? The love of games. The thought that we might make something that inspires a child the way we were inspired.We gotta get back to basics man. Remember what's important. Man I feel like Jerry Macguire.

[Daz]

It's up to you If you want to get all depressed by that quote Josh. However, well written and thought provoking though it is, remember: it's also looking at 'working in the bizz' from a very particular ( and pessimistic ) perspective. Sure, the way it's described in that paragraph is one way to look at it. But its the authors view. And just as valid as 'we get paid good money to make Art for videogames'. I went back to London in April at the same time 'Everything Or Nothing' was released. Im walking down Oxford street and a London bus drives past with a massive ad for the game with my artwork all over it. I poked my mate in the ribs and pointed at the bus, not the bargain bin. And said "I made that" with a childish proud grin on my face.

The fact that all this shiat has come out in the last few weeks HAS to be a good thing. Im highly confident that change will come from it all.

On the publicity front, I have more interesting news that I will share with you all early next week so that you can catch it in time.

[FatAssasin]

My wife's parents went out and bought and XBox just to play the game I worked on and see what I did in it. My neighbor's daughters eyes lit up when I said that I worked on video games. She thought it was the coolest thing ever. Stuff like that makes me glad to be in the industry. Even with all the stuff that's going on, it's still a cool place to be.

[MoP]

[ QUOTE ]
On the publicity front, I have more interesting news that I will share with you all early next week so that you can catch it in time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're pregnant!?!?!!1

Actually, along that line and keeping with the theme of "why it is/isn't cool to be in the industry" ... if you've got a kid going to school, and all their friends are playing the latest game on whatever platform is flavour of the month, your kid will be able to say "hey, my dad/mum made that!" and will quite possibly become very cool very fast.
I reckon, if you're a parent and work on computer games, as long as you're not at work 24/7, you will probably be a cool parent to have for kids of a certain age... way better than "my dad's a lawyer" or whatever, IMHO /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[adam]

The response from Rusty was pointless. Sure he said, "We know we have problems" but the solutions he laid out had nothing to do with the issue at hand. The stuff he said that was currently changing was nothing about over-worked employees and missed compensation. Not one bit. I had PR people for reasons like this, beating around the bush and being uppity to try and distress an issue.

Sigh.

[lkraan]

I am really impressed that you folks who have to do the crunch thing can still create game art when you are working more than 8 hours a day and more than 5 days per week.
There are a couple of things that I really love to do but if I were forced to do it so much then I would end up producing crap, hating the work nd hating my life.

I wonder what the results are from EA's "Talk Back Survey".
Daz, has EA done those before and if so what were the results like?

[Kevin Johnstone]

Preggers huh? Again?! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Mop: The advantage of having a kid is not that making games makes you the 'cool dad', by default, you are the 'cool dad' because you are the type of person that still has enough youth and fun in them that you can relate to a kid like a playmate as well as a father.

The real advantage about being a parent in this industry is you have a constant reminder of what is truly worthwhile and what is not and this reinforces the realisation that you are not your job, that when those games are molding away, your kid is still growing into a confident and happy young adult.

This is a subject I have spent serious time considering.

[MoP]

Very good point Ror.

[Daz]

They do the talkback survey ever year ikraan. Its just most years they only have about a 40% of staff actually take the time to do it. This year it was 80.

Im gonna have a baby! yay!

[Eric Chadwick]

Totally agree with you there Ror.

It rocks having kids, especially being able to be aware of what's going on while it's happening. Although I think any good parents feel the same way, regardless of their occupation... I guess this industry just keeps us a bit more in tune with what childhood is all about.

About that quote, ultimately for me the end result isn't what matters, it's the process that does. If I'm not enjoying it as I go, then that's the sad part. Kind of dovetails back into the parenting thing.

[Daz]

This mornnings NPR article. They didnt even tell Jamie when it went out so he missed it. But you can listen here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4206253