Looks like BUsh, peoples!

[sal_manilla]

I think I'd have preferred a democrat in office but Kerry just wasn't the man. Ce'st la vie. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[ndcv]

/images/graemlins/frown.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Maybe next time the Democrats will find guts enough to nominate someone whose appeal is a little more compelling than "he's not Bush"

[CCPhil]

maybe you should wait with opening threads like this until the election is over

[Daz]

Were all doomed. The world would have been a much safer place with the evil madman gone.

I heard an interesting concept today that I hadn't really considered too much before. The worlds opinion of the U.S, and obviously particularly of its foreign policy is at an all time low. But the handy disclaimer for Americans was always that Bush arguably didnt win the last election. Now theres no excuses. You lot actually *want* the dumb fuck in power. ( and obviously I dont direct that at pc'ers for the most part. According to the pc poll most of you wanted Kerry in ).

Its really depressing to the point that it actually makes me want to leave the US.

/waits for comments along the lines of 'we dont care what other people think of us'. Well, you should. You've got a war on Iran to look forward to now. Who knows where it'll stop.

[rawkstar]

yeah man right now there's still 3 states left that are not yet decided on who won in those states and bush is up by 2 votes only...

[lkraan]

But then again the only state out of the 3 that matters is Ohio since New Mexico and Iowa only have 12 EV's together where Ohio has 20.
I never understood why you either win or loss all the EV's in a state and not win the percentage of EV's based on the amount of votes.
Right now the different in votes for Ohio seems too big for Kerry to catch up. Bummer /images/graemlins/frown.gif
I would like to see a change in guard just to see if Kerry can make a difference.
But as CCPhil said ... it isn't over yet.

[CCPhil]

it is a very weird system and in my eyes not very democratic. It basically makes your vote worthless, its a bit like gambeling.
Another thing about the USA is that there are no real electionstandards or institutions.
In one state you will find a smoothly going election in the other the mashines will be busted, you are not listed as registered etc.
Everything is run by companys, thats why Florida 2000 was actually possible and thats was most of the europeans don´t see.

Very weird system /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Soul_Reaper]

/sigh

The politics of terror reign supreme for another 4 years

[Irritant]

Well if you want to go by popular vote, it wasn't even close.

Bush won the majority of that, 51%-48%, the first time that has happened since Reagan.

[Jes]

http://boards.polycount.net/images/icons/poly109.gif

Last time I saw the stats though, it was 254 for Bush and 252 for Kerry.. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[Neo_God]

Well right now I think it's Bush 286 and kerry is still at 252.

Makes me upset, one of the reasons bush is getting such a large voting population is because people like his morals. "The Man is a good christian"...god that is one of the worse things to elect someone on. I mean JFK had that great quote "I am Not a catholic President, I am a President who happens to be Catholic". There's also that vast majortiy of shit kickers (eh...maybe not them, but that's how is is around my area) who would still vote for bush even if they heard he was a Zombie Nazi from space who wants to eat every first born son, they don't care, just as long as they get to keep Automatic weapons in their homes.

Oh well, if he does get elected, look on the bright side, he can't be elected again...

[KDR_11k]

Where's James Bond when you need him?

[neolith]

[ QUOTE ]
Where's James Bond when you need him?

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[ElysiumGX]

Not another 4 years. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Europe...start invading please. I have a feeling the next war, Americans against their government, is going to happen sooner than predicted. The White House will probably be burned for the second time. Where's those city sized spaceships when you need them?

I noticed a lot of people voting for Badnarik. That's taking votes away from Kerry. If they're voting for that guy, just because the don't want Bush or Kerry, what a bunch of dipshits. Who the hell is Badnarik?

[Jackablade]

[ QUOTE ]
Who knows where it'll stop.

[/ QUOTE ]I suspect it'll stop when he takes a shot at China and your country gets squished like a particularly large bug. You can see him (and the rest of the insane people you've got in power) just itching to go up against them.

[TomDunne]

China cannot possibly 'squish' America. They couldn't land troops here, it's not even a question.

[Toomas]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh well, if he does get elected, look on the bright side, he can't be elected again...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah like this is set in stone when you have all judges and shit under your pawn... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Rick Stirling]

There has been a case in the past of a three term president.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

[ShadoKat]

[ QUOTE ]
one of the reasons bush is getting such a large voting population is because people like his morals. "The Man is a good christian.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. One of the reasons is because of the shitstorm surrounding same-sex marriage on the ballot in, like 14 states or something like that. Homophobes came out in droves to shout, in one voice, "I hate fags!" The Republicans capitalized on the fact that so many people believe, "Them queers shouldn't have the same rights as us normal people." Yeah? Well FUCK YOU! Love is for EVERYONE, YOU ABSOLUTE PIECES OF SHIT!! Sorry for the vitriol, I've just got a big dose of disillusionment going on. One of the local ballot measures I was watching in Oregon, measure 36, actually passed. I used to love Oregon. I didn't think it could happen here. I didn't realize I was surrounded by such bigotry in my own state.

[Dukester]

and that is what brought about the two term limit /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sledgy]

I'm disappointed but it is clearly what the majority wants. You'll be sorry! (when Bush eats your babies!) Time to buckle down for another 4 years of bullshit - spending money we don't have, picking fights we don't need and generally being the asshole of the world.

[CCPhil]

well, shit ... yeah shit, we will all suffer under the economical impact this president will take on your economy. The one thing that really makes your country the strongest.

We will see how strongley the asians will react to keep the dollar stabl or all their nice dollars that they have been hording will be worthless and the economy will go tumbling down.

If the dollar keeps falling like it has been (because of bush) and the oilprices keep rising (because of bush) we all will soon face a major financial problem.


... Until then, I´ll be opening up some facilitys for americans that want to flee into a scure place /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[KDR_11k]

I still hope that those rumours about CIA plans turn out true...

[jzero]

Rick: The reason Roosevelt was in for three, actually almost four terms, is that not only was he popular, everyone was too busy with the Great World War Two. And the two-term limit was brought in when people realized that those four terms had basically killed FDR.

You Brits need to pay more attention in your American History classes! Or, you will, after Bush invades and mandates it.

/jzero

[bearkub]

Well, I must say, I would have liked things to turn out other than they did, but I have also come to the realization that at least people got out and stood behind what they believed in, no matter the side. Hasn't happened in some time.

However, that being said, the first person that voted for Bush I hear bitch about the war, or the economy, or can't understand why they are spat at by foreigners, or complains about the lack of jobs or the number of dead soldiers, I will take a deep breath and say "Hey, tough shit pal, you had your chance to stop this and didn't because you were too busy 'baaaa-ing' with the rest of the sheep all the way to the polls. You got exactly what you wanted. Suck it up, you have no right to complain about anything. You did this, not me"

[ElysiumGX]

http://www.theonion.com/election2004/images/national_outlook_map6.gif

[rawkstar]

2 words:

SUPER GHEI

nothing else left to say...

[Irritant]

This thread is a cross section of absurdity.

You have people talking about Bush invading this or that country, or calling Bush a tyrant. Shows a total lack of education of the American democratic system of checks and balances, and well, apparently a failure of whatever education system they were raised in.

I'm not going belabor these points too much after this. Bush won, get over it. It's time for this country to be the "United" States once again. Sadly, I fear that the left is going to further attempt to divided the country socially.

I realize I am in the extreme minority on this board. That is fine - I know my place. I don't particularly like Bush, in fact, I think he's a bit of a boob. But I will never, ever, as long as I am physically able to push a button, vote for anyone from the Democratic Party again. Ever. I have seen the damage done by their so called "ideals", firsthand. The culture of unaccountablity they have created during the 60's on through the 90's has done more to destroy what is good about this country than anything else.

America, is, was, and will be a nation that is conservative by nature. The Clinton hangover is finally over.

[Paolo]

I am deeply saddened that a majority of my countrymen have approved of the man who has squandered the blank check of 9/11 on a war that is blatantly motivated by oil interests, seeks to impose his religious views on others through legislation, shows nothing but disdain for the global community, and despite his rhetoric acts in favor of big buisness against everything else.

[Toomas]

[ QUOTE ]
You have people talking about Bush invading this or that country, or calling Bush a tyrant. Shows a total lack of education of the American democratic system of checks and balances, and well, apparently a failure of whatever education system they were raised in.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF?

[eXpendabLe]

Looks like I'll be the lone Bush supporter here. I'm proud to have voted for Bush and cant be happier for the way things have turned out. kudos to Kerry for a good effort and for showing class in conceeding to Bush via phone just now.

Overall it was a great show of democracy and to see a record voting turnout.

Sorry Kerry fans, better luck next time. McCain in 2008!!

[Justin Meisse]

I congratulate the President of 51% of America.

[Dukester]

I would jump in here and try to post something witty, but I'm to busy polishing all my automatic weapons that apparently I get to keep!

[Justin Meisse]

don't forget the bayonettes you can affix to them now!

[Irritant]

[ QUOTE ]
Can it still be called the United States?

[/ QUOTE ]

Moreso than it has been since 1988, it would seem /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[oXYnary]

"I noticed a lot of people voting for Badnarik. That's taking votes away from Kerry. If they're voting for that guy, just because the don't want Bush or Kerry, what a bunch of dipshits. Who the hell is Badnarik? "

WRONG! Libertarians are socially left but economically wayy right to the point of making the government minimal with all funding from donations. Most likely those voters were disallusioned republicans looking at their fellows in horror who sat foaming about christian morals/prophecy and Bush.

[oXYnary]

"It's time for this country to be the "United" States once again. Sadly, I fear that the left is going to further attempt to divided the country socially. " -Irritant

That is so one sided to be a characture. Did the "right" fall into line with Clinton? Fuck no. At least have enough honesty to not make outrageous statements.

Also, would you put Libertarians into the left? Seriously. Your type of "black and white" viewpoint is what has made these past elections so unorthodox. Is is your type who try to divide rather than find common ground whom are dangerous. Jon Stewart is right.

[CCPhil]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like I'll be the lone Bush supporter here. I'm proud to have voted for Bush and cant be happier for the way things have turned out. kudos to Kerry for a good effort and for showing class in conceeding to Bush via phone just now.

Overall it was a great show of democracy and to see a record voting turnout.

Sorry Kerry fans, better luck next time. McCain in 2008!!

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh*

m8, sorry to get a bit offensive here, over 60% voting, for a western state that is a very miserable statistic but in the US that actually seems to be high. Also the fact that you have to register to vote, not that you are a citizen intitels you to vote but you have to tell the guys that you want to vote and that doesnt always work.
No votingstandards, different systems, not controlorgans to make sure everything goes well (hell you have to send in laywers)
With the EV system, lots of votes become uncounted because you can either win all or none.

United States ? ... whats with the rest 40 % don´t even care who leads them ... president of the (apparently) 51% who cares.

It has democracy written all over it, hasnt it O_o

[Rick Stirling]

Good system to inflict on others, eh? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ScoobyDoofus]

[ QUOTE ]
However, that being said, the first person that voted for Bush I hear bitch about the war, or the economy, or can't understand why they are spat at by foreigners, or complains about the lack of jobs or the number of dead soldiers, I will take a deep breath and say "Hey, tough shit pal, you had your chance to stop this and didn't because you were too busy 'baaaa-ing' with the rest of the sheep all the way to the polls. You got exactly what you wanted. Suck it up, you have no right to complain about anything. You did this, not me"


[/ QUOTE ]

That has got to be one of the dumbest most asinine political statements I've EVER seen.

As for me being political sheep, you couldnt be farther from the mark PAL. Its fairly well proven scientifically and historically that the Democratic party is elected by those segments of the populace with the lowest incomes, education, and understanding of the political machine. So that makes you the sheep. Line up so I can shear your hairy ass.

I didn't vote. I didn't feel liked I'd researched enough to make a truely educated decision. I, unlike many democratic voters, wont vote for somebody because they play saxaphone on MTV, or they "won 3 purple hearts" or are supported by my favorite media celebrity. One of the biggest asshole/morons I've ever known had 2 purple hearts. So, clearly that medal means next to nothing.

While I dont like Bush and what he's done to a large extent, I REALLY dont like Kerry and his plans for the future. I agree with several of his platforms however.
Were I to take one of those online "who should you vote for" quiz's? It always said I aligned more with Bush. If I changed one or two answers I was on the fence about? It swung to Kerry. The point is that you people want to blame everything on Bush or blame everything on the republican voters. Thats silly, obviously because many like myself share a good deal of your viewpoints. Whats funny is you blame the Rep voters...and then in the same breath say that votes don't matter. Ug. It seriously & honestly seems to me that all the people who sit and whine about the Kerry/Bush election are being juvenile and naive.
The only reason I'm posting are the fairly general insults being flung in the direction of non-Dem voters, and THAT bothers me. I am a registered Indie because I don't fanatically align myself to any 1 party.


I didn't vote because I dont agree with 40% of Bush, but had I voted I have a strong feeling it would have been for him. That doesnt mean I WANT him to be a retard sometimes. Nor does it mean that Kerry was the Magikal Fix-America Fairy. Who by virtue of my single vote would have healed american, cured the blind & infirm... So. Relax. Current indicators show that he lost. Get the fuck over it. Youve got Lemons for now. Make some fucking lemonade. The majority of us like the lemonade. And if it turns out he won? Im not going to SUE or post a thread about how he FIXED THE POLES! or We were ROBBED of that election...blah blah sore loser whiney bullshit. I'll enjoy your goddamned democratic lemonade. I'll have to make the best of the scenario.

[bearkub]

Thanks for the personal attack, Scoob. I forgot, I am not allowed to vent my frustration like the rest of the general public. My statement was directed at people who vote for one person and hoorah and carry on about how great and amazing they are, once again, regardless of party affiliation and then 3 days later are complaining about laws or mandates or whatever that the person they voted for and put in office are now putting into place. Why did you vote for this person, if all you were going to do is bitch about it later? Seems pointless, no? I'll keep that in mind and make sure to march in line. It's not a political statement, it's a vent of personal frustration at the current state of affairs. So, sorry you took it so personal. Apparently you took complete disregard for the first part of that post where I said I applaud everyone, democrat and republican alike, for getting up and standing up for what you believe in which matters more to me than who won.

I totally agree with you, which is what I was getting at. So, the person that I did vote for didn't win. Well, that's how things go. It's just like anything else and life will go on regardless. The world isn't going to collapse tomorrow because of it, contrary to popular belief. I hate sore losers just as much as you apparently do. However, I also hate people that make a choice about something and then can't stand by that decision, which was my whole point. Granted, my wording was, at best, poor and a bit harsh and not thought out as well as it could have been, but I am not going to go back and change or edit it. I made my bed and I will most definately lie in it, as I have done several times in the past.

But, it seems you are happier to take personal attacks so, enjoy one at my expense.

[Frank]

This is all a setup so Hillary can be President in 2008. Mark my words, she's going to start getting more and more vocal about Bush inthe coming years, and then when people start shouting for her to run, she'll get all "aw, shucks, okay," and there you go.

Well, maybe it's not all about her running; let me loosen my tin-foil hat a bit; but I predict she will run in 2008 on the strength of the peoples' dislike for Bush. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Frank the Avenger

[AstroZombie]

Hillary - Obama '08!!!!

I am so depressed right now. I really believed that Kerry would win this election.

[ElysiumGX]

[ QUOTE ]
Its fairly well proven scientifically and historically that the Democratic party is elected by those segments of the populace with the lowest incomes, education, and understanding of the political machine. So that makes you the sheep. Line up so I can shear your hairy ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since Bush has been elected my entire family has fallen more and more into the lower class. Earlier this year my grandpa died of Alzheimer's. Before his death, his condition led my grandmother into a world of debt. She has been repeatedly harassed by services such as Medicaid because of her willingness to help me build a credit history, credit she has never used herself that I had to cancel in order to help her. Which I am now unable to receive again. I've been without a job for months, and without work at all for weeks. My fiancee is now in the hospital with possibly a serious condition that will result in a large medical bill that will send us into further debt, adding on to the debt we're trying to pay for our "low" education. We've been looking for extra jobs for months with no luck. Apparently we make too little to earn unemployment, and too much to be eligible for food stamps. But hey, atleast we're killing terrorists and pissing off the homos.

How about you go fuck yourself.

[joolz8000]

*grumblegrumble*

Okay then. I won't go calling people sheep or idiots for now- we've heard it all before. I won't go crying about the economy, the war, the environment- all in the shitter and seemingly less important than God, Guns, and Gays. Instead I'll take a moment of silence and spend the day thinking about the likely future of our fair nation. The Democratic Party will self-destruct. The middle class will shrink further. The Rupublicans will control the nation for at least the next fifty years. The religious right will aquire more power and influence. Gays and lesbians will lose more rights. The environment will continue to deteriorate. The 'safety net' will fade into memory. International relations will go from terrible to completely abhorent.

Not that I really believed that Kerry would've been able to stop any of this from happening. But I had hope that he might slow it.

We deserve what we get.

[Nerd Groupie]

Bah, didn't realize just how much of a Kerry supporter I was until Bush started winning.

But I live in South Dakota, so I'm sure my opinion matters.

[Ryno]

OK folks, sorry for the rant, but it's now or never. These points are not in chronological order.:

During Bush's first time in office:

1. The biggest terrorist attack against the United States took place. This was not exactly his fault, but he was totally stunned that this might happen, and finally realized that he could not be president and spend his entire first term vacationing. Now, many people in the various intelligence branches were aware that we were a big fat soft target, yet due to Bush's naivete, this caught him completely off guard. In my view, this was a pretty bad oversight on this part, but was understandable due to his inexperience in world affairs.

2. Bush initiates the war in Afghanistan. Totally acceptable, and a good decision. The administration does a decent job bringing in various allies, even unexpected ones such as Pakistan.

3. The country loses hundreds of thousands of jobs due to dot-com bust, Enron scandal, the war and other factors. This was not completely Bush's fault, however his close ties to corporate corruption is very disturbing.

4. Bush declares Iran, Iraq, and North Korea "The Axis of Evil" in a speech. That's a way to use diplomacy. This'll come back a few points below.

5. Bush invades Iraq based on the weapons of mass destruction arguement, ignoring evidence to the contrary. There is much talk in Washington that this invasion had been planned all along, possibly because of Bush senior's regrets at not having "Gotten the job done", and the aborted Iraqi assasination plot against Bush senior. Although this is pretty bad, it in no way justifies the initiation of a war more than a decade after these events took place.

6. Bush basically tells the world to go f*** themselves when other nations are hesitant to join a coalition to invade Iraq. This country, who after 9/11 was the most respected and supported country in the world, becomes the most reviled. Long time allies of the US realize that they cannot trust the US, and the US will show them no favor.

7. Seeing what happened to the other 3rd of the "Axis of Evil", both North Korea and Iran begin frantically trying to develop nuclear weaponry. They are obviously concerned that Bush will invade their countries next, so seek to build a substantial nuclear deterrent. This is pretty much all Bush's fault, as he had already judged these countries, and damned them in his speech. At this point there will be very little hope for diplomatic influence of these countries.

8. Bush continues to promote tax-cuts for wealthy citizens, claiming that this will help the economy. There is strong evidence that this concept is infeffective, as the trickle-down theory caused a severe recession during the end of Reagan's term. This tax-cut is actually more of a bribe on Bush's part, to ensure that he will maintain his support among this group. Being an American is about supporting your country in a time of need, and stepping up when you need to do so.

9. Oil-prices hit an all-time high due to the war in Iraq. Texas oil companies profit greatly. Makes you wonder why that war took place...

10. Bush actively pursues oil-drilling in Alaska, and in other domestic locations, to ease our reliance on foreign oil. He makes very little effort to promote alternative fuel sources, which are the long-term solution to America's fuel dependency and polution issues. Texas oil business is happy about Bush's policy of course.

11. Bush actively promotes various policies which deny the rights of US citizens and foreigners in his war against terror. Phone lines can be tapped, people held without charge, torture becomes an acceptable option, etc. The US breaks with the Geneva Convention, and refuses to allow its soldiers to be judged by international law. Bush says f*** you to the world, we can do whatever the f*** we want, and you can't do a damn thing about it. And if you're a citizen of the US, and we don't like you, then we can f*** with you too, for no particular reason!

12. Due to multiple wars, tax-cuts, and the economy going in the tank, the US federal deficit grows to an all-time high. Bush wins the crown of biggest spender in the history of the world. The debt is so high that it will take at least a decade of concerted effort to get things to break even. Of course this type of effort will be very difficult, so it is more likely that social security or other services will be terminated to pay off debt.

Now, I'm a moderate democrat, and I do vote for Republicans occasionally, but this guy's policies will be hurting our kids and grandkids decades from now. The country will hit a financial breaking point sometime, as he continues to expand the bureacracy, charge up the nation's credit card, and keep bribing citizens with tax cuts. He's already rumbling about Iran next, and as you know he's mentioned North Korea in his "Axis of Evil" speech as well. Iran's nuclear development is completely understandable from their perspective, however it's the cash-starved North Korea who is the bigger threat, as they're likely to start selling nukes to whomever can front the cash. Thanks W! Great job! Oh, and we really appreciate that we have a lot less freedom now, and that the world completely hates us!

If his first term is any indication, we'll be in for a whole load of shit during the next four years. I can only hope that my suspicions are wrong, and he gets things going right this time around. If he doesn't, there's always 2008. (Or moving abroad, or secession)

End rant.

[KMan]

http://members.aol.com/vwferrets/ferret-1.gif
I think that sums up my feelings today.
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[AstroZombie]

Does anyone have a definitive list of game companies in Canada? I think I want to defect ... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[TomDunne]

You know, AZ, I was literally thinking something along those lines right as I read your post. America - love it or leave it? I'd certainly look into leaving if it wasn't so difficult to permanently immigrate elsewhere.

[Irritant]

I can think of 3 reasons that Hillary will not be elected in 2008.

1) McCain
2) Gulianni
3) Scwarzenegger(don't think it can't happen, there are already forces at work to amend the consitution to allow him to run).

I can also think of alot of other reasons Hillary won't get elected.

[jzero]

To anyone who asks, I merely mention that just after 9/11, Al Quaeda did not operate inside Iraq, even though the Bush administration would have you believe that they did. Now, thanks to George W. Bush's program to ensure American and global security, Al Quaeda operates all over Iraq. Nice job, George.

/jzero

[sledgy]

Given the House, Senate, Judicial and Executive branches are all Republican dominated, I don't see much obstruction to amending the Constitution to allow Conan to run. Would it be a smart thing to do? Who cares! Everybody likes him so why the fuck not? Let's just turn it all into a free for all with circus music on every street corner and a rodeo clown in every pot.

[killingpeople]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm disappointed but it is clearly what the majority wants. You'll be sorry! (when Bush eats your babies!) Time to buckle down for another 4 years of bullshit - spending money we don't have, picking fights we don't need and generally being the asshole of the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup, yup

[joolz8000]

No Democrat with a brain is going to promote Hillary. She's got too much baggage and could never make a dent in those red states. I don't think John Edwards is a good choice either. Then again, Bush could conceivably alienate more of those swing voters- but I doubt it. Honestly, I don't see any up-and-coming Dem for 2008. Obama's too young...
Interesting;
http://www.slate.com/id/2109079/

As for 'love it or leave it', I have to say I'm loving it less and less.

[AstroZombie]

http://idisk.mac.com/glwebb-public/new_map.jpg

- Source (http://openthread.dailykos.com/comments/2004/11/3/133016/729/10?mode=alone;showrate=1#10)

[Irritant]

[ QUOTE ]
Given the House, Senate, Judicial and Executive branches are all Republican dominated, I don't see much obstruction to amending the Constitution to allow Conan to run. Would it be a smart thing to do? Who cares! Everybody likes him so why the fuck not? Let's just turn it all into a free for all with circus music on every street corner and rodeo clowns in every pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually Conan's views are mirror images of my own, I like him alot more than Bush, who I disagree with on a great number of issues, especially religious ones.

[oXYnary]

Well, I will attack Doofus back.. His is the most hypocritical ignorant position of all of us. In fact, where does he get off attacking any of use when he didnt even have enough responsibility to vote?

[ QUOTE ]
As for me being political sheep, you couldnt be farther from the mark PAL. Its fairly well proven scientifically and historically that the Democratic party is elected by those segments of the populace with the lowest incomes, education, and understanding of the political machine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Prove it.. especially "education and understanding of the political machine". That more than anything sounds like a subjective view you are trying to play off as objective. Give us your facts. Else, I demand you retract that asinine statment.

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't vote.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sir, then should shut the fuck up. As I say you didnt take enough reponsiblity to get out there and look. You then now attack those who did have that responsibility.

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't feel liked I'd researched enough to make a truely educated decision. I, unlike many democratic voters, wont vote for somebody because they play saxaphone on MTV, or they "won 3 purple hearts" or are supported by my favorite media celebrity.

[/ QUOTE ]

This automatically makes an assumption that we based our votes on these facts. Are you really that blind? Does it sound like anyone in here based their votes on these things?
How much research would you want? There are plenty of easy ways to gain it. No, lets be honest here. You were lazy, and now are trying to get into the fray.

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't vote because I dont agree with 40% of Bush, but had I voted I have a strong feeling it would have been for him. That doesnt mean I WANT him to be a retard sometimes. Nor does it mean that Kerry was the Magikal Fix-America Fairy.

[/ QUOTE ]

You fucking had plenty of other choices pal. Nader, Badnarik (I think you would have liked him), Cobb, ect. You could have found a better platform and at least voted. It seems YOU want to only see democrat or republican. Well, thanks for keeping the status quo you fence sitter.

[Irritant]

[ QUOTE ]
http://idisk.mac.com/glwebb-public/new_map.jpg

- Source (http://openthread.dailykos.com/comments/2004/11/3/133016/729/10?mode=alone;showrate=1#10)

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL - but leave Maryland out - we have a Republican governor, and 20 out of 23 counties are strongly conservative. It it wasn't for the leeches of Baltimore and DC(suburbs), it would be an easy Bush state.

[Scott Ruggels]

Well I am Very pleased and satisfied with the results of the election. being one of the original Conservatives on this forum (along with Paul Jaquays, and the Dukester). I have alway rejected the progressive policies of the left, and think that this Popular majority rejection of the urban values is a good thing. I want this war carried through, I want more conservative( in the legal sense) supreme court justices, young ones, that will remain in place for decades. I a for the most part, happy. Colorado was a bit of a wash, but hey.

Scott

[NoSeRider]

Yeah, but Bush lies....or he's inept.

[Dukester]

I'll second that Scott, but I got to run. I'm to busy partying with my neocon buddies at the PFTNAC! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

as for some of y'all here, step back, take a deep breath maybe?

or maybe not /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kahlan]

Stayed up last night and got all worried about the election and didn't sleep much. Wake up after an hour of sleep and go to work in the gallery only to find that Kerry conceeds. I've had four professors and countless classmates talk of getting the hell out of the US. I started looking at grad schools in Canada today. I just can't even fathom how that man got himself re-elected. I guess I live in my little liberal art student bubble or something. I'm not going to lay blame or try to continue some sort of conflict. I guess I'm just pissed, especially since the profession I've chosen is expendable in a republican regime (and not too well favored in America regardless). I don't even want to start thinking about what the next four years will be like. The past four were probably BUSH-Lite since he had to get re-elected. I shudder to think what could be in store for us now. Oh and in hindsight I retract my statement not to start a conflict: Scooby-Doofus is an appropriate nick for a fucking moron. >:P

Love ya!
Kahlan

[Ryno]

[ QUOTE ]
I can think of 3 reasons that Hillary will not be elected in 2008.

1) McCain
2) Gulianni
3) Scwarzenegger(don't think it can't happen, there are already forces at work to amend the consitution to allow him to run).

I can also think of alot of other reasons Hillary won't get elected.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. McCain is a very intelligent moderate that isn't afraid to go against his party line if need be. I have much respect for the man, even though I don't always completely agree with him. Nevertheless, I could definitely live with him as a leader.

2. Gulianni is just such a snakey politician, that he wouldn't have a prayer. He was not liked for much in NY before 9/11, with the exception of being tough on crime. 9/11 is what has made this guy's career, and there isn't a chance he'd get enough support to be a good candidate.

3. Other than his serious lack of experience and not being eligable, the Terminator isn't that bad. Still, I'd prefer someone with more time in office at a federal level, as the last governor who became president was a really naive idiot.

Still, you have to wonder if Hillary could draw some of the women's vote from the Republican side. If she can, she could win, as she'd mop up with the Democrats.

[KeyserSoze]

[ QUOTE ]
Its fairly well proven scientifically and historically that the Democratic party is elected by those segments of the populace with the lowest incomes, education, and understanding of the political machine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Argumentum ad crumenam (by implying that having a lower income and less education somehow equates to "less understanding of the political machine").

[ QUOTE ]
I, unlike many democratic voters, wont vote for somebody because they play saxaphone on MTV, or they "won 3 purple hearts" or are supported by my favorite media celebrity. One of the biggest asshole/morons I've ever known had 2 purple hearts. So, clearly that medal means next to nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a total straw man argument. You argue from the assertion that "many democratic voters [...] vote for somebody because they play saxaphone on MTV, or they 'won 3 purple hearts' or are supported by [their] favorite media celebrity." This simply isn't true.

I agree with your resentment of bearkub's post, but the way you argued your point really bothers me. The arguments you made were just as asinine and dumb as the comments bearkub made.

[Dukester]

Hey you guys who are actually leaving, take that Baldwin guy with you. He was supposed to leave 4 years ago!

[Irritant]

Take Cameron Diaz, Michael Moore, Sean Penn, Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins. And give us the South Park guys.

[sledgy]

I don't see a thing wrong with what Kub said. When G.W. fucks up big next (and you know this is inevitable) he doesn't have to watch his ass as closely now. He can go pretty much just up to the point of impeachment and get away with it because he doesn't have an election to lose now. Shall we talk accountability? Every person who cast their ballot for him is directly responsible for putting him in his position. You know what he did, you know what he does, you know what his plans are and it's all on you.

Oh and fuck moving to another country - this is MY country and I'll be damned if I let it turn into a cesspool of "morals". You know the problem with "moral people" is that they're always trying to foist their "morals" (and I use that word in this context very loosely) on others.

[sundance]

oh, hey, next war'll be north korea not iran. bigger threat: more WMD. iran's got, like one plant that a B-2 could flatten.

[bearkub]

OK, since, once again, I think people are missing my point, I am going to try again to explain it.

I am going to use Scott Ruggles (sorry Scott!) as an example. I do not and probably never will see eye-to-eye with Scott when it comes to political debate. However, I have a LOT of respect for Scott because he stands by his beliefs and the politicians he supports even when barraged with attacks. I knew that he would vote for Bush and he did and if things start to slip or Bush screws up, he will still stand by him and not start bad mouthing him at the drop of a hat. This is what I am talking about.

My comment was ONLY directed at people who make important decisions just to realize 2 days later that they only did it because "so was everyone else" and now are jumping on the "yah, fuck him!" band wagon. This does not mean that a person can never change their opinion, but at least try to make educated reasoning as to why you changed your position.

If you want to disagree with me, that's fine. I am also more than willing to debate my point at any time. However, attacking my intelligence, social status and understanding of the political system is very unnecessary and makes you look like, for lack of a better word, an ass in my eyes . If you can't come up with a better argument than "you are dumb and asinine" please, keep it to yourself because I couldn't care less what you think about me personally.

[r13]

One opinion i do hold on to very strongly, is that anyone who is of the age and ability to vote but choose not to, can sit down and be quiet when it comes to this sort of debate.

I do not buy the arguement of "my vote doesn't count" Ok, so who's vote does? If I'm a Republican in Texas, does my vote count or not count as it was considered a given that Bush would win this state. [he did of course] Should I not vote because enough others were voting? Who is this mystic "others"? Can I get a card so that my vote counts? So a Democrat's vote here counts if the Republican's doesn't or does? I guess I'm confused, because I know I voted and I know my vote was counted.

To me voting is your ticket for crediblity. If you care enough to have an opinion, then exercise that opinion by voting. If you don't, then you don't care enough.

[Dukester]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh and fuck moving to another country - this is MY country and I'll be damned if I let it turn into a cesspool of "morals

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually agree with you there. Umm.. more the first part than the second part, but yeah I agree with the spirit of your message /images/graemlins/smile.gif

and also nice rejoinder there Kub.

[Needles]

It doesnt surprise me, but yeah the majoriry is pack of

IDIOTS.

also heres 50 state average IQ on people voted for whom in 2000

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~gcharter/iq.txt

I predict these numbers to be even lower this year.

Heh at least their IQ is enough to be able know when the gun is pointing the other way. -.-

[Faucet]

w00t!

4 more years of shitting on our international relations!
4 more years of our civil liberties being worn down!
4 more years of ever growing national debt!
4 more years of faith-based initiatives!
4 more years of corporate wars!
4 more years of gay bashing!
EXTRA POINT EXTRA POINT!
Score one for the team!
VICTORY is afoot!
WIN WIN WIN!

[Justin Meisse]

McCain in 08? probably, I was rooting for him and the whole "McCain is crazy because he was a POW" campaign left a bad taste in my mouth. I'd have to study the facts though, I didn't vote in 2000 and didn't follow the agendas too closely.

won't it be nice to get back to talking about polygons and framerates again?

+YSG+

[SjetvsKerrigan]

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~gcharter/iq.txt

Those statisics are from 1990.

[Mojo2k]

its amazing how when people don't agree with what you do they are mindless sheep . or idiots or hate fags, or are just plain stupid.

Yesterday someone asked me if i was going to vote, and got all down on me when i said no, talking aobut how important it was and that i really should, but whe i told her that if i did go vote i would vote for bush It turned into a good thing that i wasnt voting, which is ridiculous, its such an important thing.. ONLY if you vote the way i want you to!

Its completely stupid to down on people because they don't think the same as you.

[That Darn Satan!]

Is it stupid to be down on people who are down on you for not thinking the same as them, or would that constitute a loophole?

[Mishra]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~gcharter/iq.txt

Those statisics are from 1990.

[/ QUOTE ]

oh jesus im much smarter then the average. awesome. was 85 in alien 3 from mississippi?

btw, i really didnt care about this election at all, but i would rather bush won because he's more satirical. with kerry, there'd probably be less to make fun of.

[KeyserSoze]

[ QUOTE ]
oh, hey, next war'll be north korea not iran. bigger threat: more WMD. iran's got, like one plant that a B-2 could flatten.

[/ QUOTE ]

North Korea was more of a threat than Iraq a year-and-a-half ago, but that didn't stop us from going to Iraq, did it? Don't be too surprised if we see American soldiers occupying Iran in the coming months.

[ QUOTE ]
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~gcharter/iq.txt

[/ QUOTE ]

Is Mississippi's average IQ really only 85? HAHAHA, isn't that borderline retarded? Jesus, if that's their average, I'd really hate to see their "bottom of the barrel."

[KDR_11k]

Needles: Mississippi has an average IQ of 85?!? WTF is going on there?

[sal_manilla]

I didn't vote....didn't need to. The polls were so close but for the most part G.W. was always in the lead. The majority felt that Dubbyah was the right choice. Other people underestimated Bush's popularity and the power behind him that which we may never know. I'm satisfied....no more political freakin' commercials...YAY! Let's get on with our lives, eh? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Needles]

I dont care that they dont think like me or not. That is not a problem of mines. My statement comes from some other completetly Soscially unrelated concerns. This administration has been flushing the country down the toilet, and its just getitng started, this is my biggest concern. Im affraid of whats gonna happen in the next 4 years. At first i was fine the he was in office. but he fucked up bad, terribly bad, thats is plain and obvious. I hella didnt wanna give that idiot another chance to fuck up.
And im sure its gonna get worse..Im fucking moving to canada.

build the greatest country in the world. and fuck it up because of petty selfish concerns.

[flaagan]

i usually try to stay the hell outta such threads, but the constant whining of "I'm moving to canada!" is getting old... shut the hell up and do it or stick around and deal with it. see if you like the crap they've got going on up there (or anywhere else in the world) any better. if you do, good for you, if you don't... HA. Maybe you'll come to your senses and realize this is not a perfect world, and heaven forbid everyone does not get their way right away.

All anyone should give a rat's ass about is whether their fellow US citizen voted. If not, maybe your concern shouldn't be who got into the white house, but why they did and who you wanted in didn't.

[AstroZombie]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's get on with our lives, eh? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, I'm ready to move forward and hope for the best. I am so sick of being outraged and seeing this country divided. I don't think that I will ever understand how those of you on the right think (Scott, Duke, PJ, Sal), but I still have respect for all of you and respect for your right to an opinion.

[ShadoKat]

Sorry, but this was kind of devastating for those of us that value our freedom. Particularly little liberties that don't fit in with neconservative "morals." I don't think I'll be ready to move on until at least Monday.

[ScoobyDoofus]

[ QUOTE ]
You sir, then should shut the fuck up. As I say you didnt take enough reponsiblity to get out there and look. You then now attack those who did have that responsibility.


[/ QUOTE ] What portion of my statement was an attack?
Who did I tell to "shut the fuck up" or call an igorant hypocrite?

You are the person making attacks son.

As for me not voting or being "lazy" Oh please. You dont know the 1st thing about me. I researched like crazy. I went and shot political statement photos at the polls. I discussed the issues extensivly with my peers. The simple fact of it was that I didn't feel strongly enough about either candidate to vote for them, and also knew that it was 100% pointless to vote for a 3rd party candidate. I'll only vote for the guy I want to win, and who I think can win. In this case NONE of the candidates met those not-too unreal expectations for me.

What upset me is bearkub's 2 statements.
#1 That the stereotypical republican voter is simply following the "flock" or that they are sheep, when really they are no more sheep than democratic voters.
Also:
#2 that because we voted for the only 2 options (lets be real here and realize that other candidates are candidates in name only, and dont stand an ice-cubes chance in hell of being elected) so if you actually want to DO anything you vote for 1 of 2 choices. Whomever you pick, you are likely unhappy with one or two aspects of that candidate and you ABSOLUTELY still have the right to complain or bitch or discuss how to make things better.

And as for my generalizations about Democratic voters this is soley based upon my 1st hand personal experience talking with people at the polls at the mall, and people I know. For gods sake, I know somebody who didnt want to vote for Bob Dole because she thought he was "too old" and she didnt want some "old guy" for president. She thought Clinton was "much more handsome". I wrote her off as an abberation, until 5 seconds later when all her friends concurred with her statement and espressed their intent to vote for Clinton.

I am an athiest tree hugging humanitarian intellectual who supports both Bush and Kerry. Its just my views on particular programs made me more inclined towards Bush than Kerry.

I am very socially concerned and politically involved. I donate my time to photograph charity events for educating disadvantaged students here in the LV valley. Im not some stereotypical old bitter ultra-religious republican rich person here.

[ScoobyDoofus]

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't come up with a better argument than "you are dumb and asinine" please, keep it to yourself because I couldn't care less what you think about me personally.


[/ QUOTE ]

A person can say something dumb or asinine without being generally either of those things themselves can they not?
Very smart people can say and do very dumb things from time to time.

Your generalization of rep voters as sheep was VERY offensive to me, much moreso than somebody commenting that what I've said is unintelligent or immature. And as for any "Personal attack" on you? WHere? Point it out in my message please?

[Daz]

My God man. You have the most unbelievably arrogant tone. Calling grown intelligent adults 'son' ?

WTF

[ScoobyDoofus]

Daz: When somebody tells me to "shut the fuck up" for voiceing my opinion? He's lucky I didnt call him something more inappropriate than "son".

Because you agree with his political viewpoint the "Gee Oxynary...a little condecending telling Scoob to Shut the fuck up" is obviously absent isn't it? Perfect illustration of the bias occuring here.

And as for this community which is apparently 90% kerry/democrat... Im not surprised.

A majority of the posts in this thread lament
"oh yeah, we're in for hell now" or "Gee this sucks, I wanna leave the US"

This is not a political discussion. Its a one sided statement from one perspective. Indeed I probably came into this a bit hot headed, but please tell me Im wrong.
Dispute anything Ive said, but dont just say "shut the hell up" or "your a moron" or "whan an idiot" because THAT is what is showing the maturity level, and the knowledge level of the persons involved.

The inability to debate issues, or to talk about trends or statistics without either leaving the discussion out of anger, or calling somebody else names.

[TomDunne]

[ QUOTE ]
oh, hey, next war'll be north korea not iran. bigger threat: more WMD. iran's got, like one plant that a B-2 could flatten.

[/ QUOTE ]

It'll be Iran. Look at the country that's on Iran's eastern border. Then look at the country that's on Iran's western border. It's almost easy at this point.

[TomDunne]

[ QUOTE ]
He's lucky I didnt call him something more inappropriate than "son".

[/ QUOTE ]

He's lucky you didn't call him something else? Lucky? I can't believe you actually wrote that.

This thread has gotten terrifically lame, fellas. It's a great topic for discussion, but I'm out. Call me when the macho, chest-thumping, penis-measuring bullshit has passed.

[ndcv]

You know a lot of the exit polling revealed that the big motivating factor at the polls yesterday was not the economy, or Iraq, or the environment (shocker), it was morals and values. I think the gay marriage thing is going to be an albatross around the Democrats' necks until it is resolved, because it's been painted now in the terms "Democrats want gay marriage, Republicans oppose it", and as seen in all of the initiatives regarding gay marriage, the majority of Americans oppose it.

But rather than just paint them homophobic, which is divisive and doesn't get you any closer to winning any elections, you also have to look at the fact that the majority of Americans support some sort of gay civil union with guaranteed rights similar to marriage.

I think there are two ways for the dems to get out of this morals/values quagmire:

1. Remove government recognition of marriages and replace it with civil unions. So to receive federal and state benefits, you have a civil union; and then if you want to get married in church, go for it. You could even do it in the same ceremony if you wanted to. Individual churches would get to decide who can be married. After all we are supposed to have a separation of church and state, so why are people arguing about the "sanctity" of anything recognized by government? I think this solution would be the best solution, but not very likely to actually happen.

2. Go ahead and ban gay marriage, make an ammendment, whatever; just make sure that there are gay civil unions available and that they carry ALL of the benefits and responsibilities that marriage does. Let the republican-owned congress do its worst as long as you keep civil union rights alive. That way we can get past this issue, rather than having it painted the way it is now and dragging the democrats down to failure. And sometime in the future when the society in general has progressed a little farther, we can repeal the ammendment as an obvious denial of civil rights /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[CCPhil]

-shut the fuck up
-no, you shut the fuck up, son
-no, why dont you just shut the fuck up, bitch
-no, ...

Man arent we lucky that you restrained yourself and only called him son. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

If thats the way they feel let them post their comments. You don´t need to lower yourself to what you seem to think is no form of discussion at all.

I don´t think the people who post that they want to leave the country say it because the thought just randomley crossed their mind. They truley have a problem with the new president (again) and predict a future they don´t want to live in. You cant tell them their wrong, maybe we are in for hell.

Most of the times things never turn out as bad as people think because the system is just to huge and there are to many factors influencing the whole thing. So I can just say, keep your eyes open and live a life that you think is right.

Come to the EU, we will make sure you feel fine /images/graemlins/wink.gif gay marrige, alcohol, sex, /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[e_x]

I just feel bad because look at what this has done, not only to us here on polycount, but across the nation.

It has divided US (see what I did there?), and I think that's more dangerous then anything the Bush administration can do.

[Daz]

Scoob: Not at all was my knee jerk reaction to you refering to bk as 'son' based on my polticial views. I just happen to think that 'son' is a particularly and unecessarily condescending term. I didnt see Oxynary write that. I should have read the thread more closely. Thats not cool either of course.

It seemingly isnt possible to have a debate on the subject of George Bush without it getting out of hand. The country definitely is feeling divided. The rest of the world however is not. They're united in their contempt for the man.

Luckily Im in California where everybody is united in their horror at him getting another term, and wondering what on earth next he will lead this country and ultimately world into.

Yes, it make me think twice about living in the US. ( waits for the yay! Foreigners out! cry ) And YES, I do agree with Kubs sentiment of not wishing to hear any complaining in the future about war. Because, ultimately Scoob, by voting Bush, youre cool with the notion of 100,000 dead Iraqis. That includes women and small children killed by horrific means. Burning alive in bomb attacks. Incinerated. You should look at some pictures. I wholeheartedly agree with the initital sentiment about not wanting to hear complaints about a war. Particulary the next war with Iran.

'cos you asked for it.

[That Darn Satan!]

[ QUOTE ]

This thread has gotten terrifically lame, fellas. It's a great topic for discussion, but I'm out. Call me when the macho, chest-thumping, penis-measuring bullshit has passed.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, you go do your eye-rolling, head-shaking, loudly-sighing thing, while the thread remains conspicuously less lame than that.

[Sett]

All right! Front row seat to the fall of the American empire! Jeez I hope it is not long and boring like English fall. Can't wait for the brother on brother killn' Yeees!

*ahem*
Americans -you suck. I'm sorry if you can't ...wait! I'm not sorry. You do suck. G.W.Bush(and more so his handlers) is by far the WORST Adm. -ever- God! even Nixon, with all his faults, gave brith to the EPA. If you regard your elections as nothing more that a Us vs. Them pissing contest. Then you suck. If you allow fear to be your guide. Then you suck! You could be so great, but you choose to be so small. And that what pisses me off the most.

No, don't come here. You made your bed, die in it.
/Canadian


-Sett

[CCPhil]

[ QUOTE ]
I just feel bad because look at what this has done, not only to us here on polycount, but across the nation.

It has divided US (see what I did there?), and I think that's more dangerous then anything the Bush administration can do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it hasnt divided me from anyone I was joined to before.
When things get political the emotions rise high.

and that the world and the US itself is divided has been caused by that administartion so it is one of the things it has done.

[Scott Ruggels]

No offense taken, Bearkub. But that's the thing, I can still be for my candidate, and not call other folks names or despise them just because they are wrong on politics (Kidding). The basic standard should be good manners in any case. There is no excuuse in letting your passions post for you without regard to common sense and decency.

Now for me, I've never understood the European position, but I don't go off calling all Europeans flaming dickheads, nor do I go off on the French because of Chirac accepting bribes from anyone offering.

I can celebrate, gloat, and extoll the virtues of Bush and Co, without having to resort to name calling ot breaking windows and rioting.

Mostly, it's out of respect for the others on this board and their creativity that I stay here. Definately not their politics.

Scott
P.S. Bearkub, when can I get my Castaway Logo back from the cleaners and onto the new boards here?

[JKMakowka]

No No...You are all wrong!
See, Kerry won:
http://www.ishkur.com/editorials/kerrywins01.jpg
/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[snemmy]

sigh.. oh well.. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

as for 90% of the people here being pissed off.. this is a community of artists, and many seem to be less than well off. the politically right hasnt really supported the arts for many many years. so it's going to be hard times for most of us trying to work as artists.

and those IQ statistics (if accurate) are fuckin scary. for reference 75 is "officially" mentally retarded.
o.O

[frosty]

Greetings fellow members.
I wanted to post how I felt and how weird election day ended up for me, what I wished we'd had in choices of Candidates and so forth, but after sitting in the bleachers all day here, I will pass. What I said in this succinct post, will suffice to at least get me in here before lock down.

[Illusions]

Oh well...too bad Kerry didn't win, but like the bumper sticker says: "Bush/Cheney '04 - Because you just cant change horsemen in the middle of the apocalypse"....

[eepberries]

Goddamnit. Christians are so typical

[Scott Ruggels]

That's a curious nption, though. Why should the government support "the arts"? Doesn't compromising to get a government grant, also mean compromising on'es own artistic vision? Doesnt' government support maintain the separation of "the arts' from the mainstream community?

As to this place. Well it used to be a site full of gamers, with artistic talent, Now it seems to be more about artists who game?

Scott

[ScoobyDoofus]

Daz: *Ahem....I didn't vote for Bush.
After my research I was still left with the same impression I was when I began my reading.

The whole issue with the war is another story, and another lengthy conversation.

This election was like a decision between having somebody shit or piss in my mouth. Pro's and cons to either, and I get to pick which, but both are pretty foul so I just said "Hey! Surprise me, I'm certain I'll have issues with either result, and don't feel strongly positive about either option to actively CHOOSE that one."

My non-vote was hardly due to apathy, or lack of effort. I made a decision not to choose. Like that Rush song "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice"

[sledgy]

Dukester, Scott, and Mojo are classy as ever and I want to apologize if I come off as a fanatical finger pointer. I'm upset because what I was hoping didn't happen and I'm not optimistic about the next four years but that doesn't change how I feel about anyone here. Everyone has the right to their politics.

[r13]

scott: soon as you place it there yourself. look into your account options. you'll find the option to post it in there. if you need it hosted, let me know.

[Daz]

Well apologies for making that assumption Scooby.

Snemmy: really? Im not convinced of any correlation at all on this board between the Bush dislikers and their incomes. Actually I think for the most part games artists make pretty resonable salaries. Generally it might be that artistic types tend to be a little more sensitive. But I really dont know why the views on this board dont seem to represent the apparent 50/50 ( ish ) split of the nation on politics.

[sledgy]

[ QUOTE ]
I can think of 3 reasons that Hillary will not be elected in 2008.

1) McCain
2) Gulianni
3) Scwarzenegger(don't think it can't happen, there are already forces at work to amend the consitution to allow him to run).

I can also think of alot of other reasons Hillary won't get elected.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's one: Do we really want Bill Clinton to have access to White House interns again? But then again in retrospect, White House BJs being the biggest and hottest issue is a pretty tame drama compared to current events.

[joolz8000]

http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4044&n=1

[Dukester]

[quote}
Here's one: Do we really want Bill Clinton to have access to White House interns again

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh heh /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Really, I was thinking about this earlier today. This is the seventh Presidential Election that I've voted in! Not only did it make me feel old, but it also made me think about my own personal losses in this arena. Both of them! Ha ha! Sorry /images/graemlins/frown.gif

It is a feeling of hopelesness, but it soon does pass. That is the key to the thing. Knowing you got another shot down the road. Sure, your gonna have to put up with some shit that you think is stupid, but basically your gonna still live your life as always with just a little more griping involved.

On this message board most of the downtrodden losers can commisrate together because you definately are the majority, but there are still toes to be stepped on. Step all over mine, or Scott's, we expect it. I understand someone like Daz and his opinion so I just read it and move on. Sett's opinion I blow off because I don't know if he is 13 or 33. But it seems to me that most of you like minded thinkers are beating yourselves up instead of us..unnecessarily! Perhaps you guys can forgive and forget because of the passion of the moment and then move on, but it seems like you shouldn't have to. I have been purposely semi-trolling all day and haven't even received a snag while you guys are ripping each others heads off!

To tell you the truth, while I did vote for Bush and I am relieved (more than really happy) he won, my biggest wish was that no matter who one, it would be settled and not become the big clusterfuck it was 4 years ago. On that account I am satisfied /images/graemlins/smile.gif

So argue all you want, but leave out the "fuck you's" and the "you suck" and most importantly leave out the spurr of the moment "I want to leave the country" comments. Unlike what somebody said earlier, I do believe those are knee jerk reactions, not sincere promises.

Anyway, quake 2 time /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kevin Johnstone]

As an outsider here, I've been surprised at just how much Americans like to talk politics much more than anywhere else I have been. I'm not sure, but it seems to me like America is the one place that I've been that still assumes that having a different monkey on the hotseat each time around will make things 'different'.

You mostly seem to take it very personally, as if a vote against your choice is damning of your whole life and ideology and you must foreswear the company of whomever doesn't agree with you.

I don't really 'get' that side of Americans.

I can work out why you still believe in your leaders and expect that they are going to improve your life. That pursuit of happiness is in your constitution and when the standard of living here is so much higher than Britain or Europe it's easy to think you are owed.

Or at least that's my outsider's worldview of the states so far.

I just can't understand why you take it so personally to know other people have different opinions about the person best suited to run the country. I've seen about 20 different flavours of coke in the fridge at work, if we can't agree on something as simple as our drinks flavour, why do you expect to agree on something of a much grander scale?

Or is it just George C Scott in Patton 'Losing is Hateful to an American' ?

[Mishra]

I hear you ror, people get all upset with me when i said i would rather bush stayed in office, i mean it came to a point where they started to insult me and call me pterodactyl feet for no good reason.

[ElysiumGX]

My earlier "FU" statement was only directed at one person. While I don't know that person and have no right to use such language, I was offended and upset. I'm calm now. Many voters made their decisions based on the facts and research. My post was to explain that I made my decision based on actual experiences that have happened to me and my family due to the current administration, plus the facts. I'm not influence by propaganda. When Kerry once shouted "Help is on the way!", I thought, "it's about damn time".

If you voted for Bush, more power to you. I will assume you had good reason, and that is respectable. I know there are some vastly intelligent individuals on this forum. The rest of us will suck it up and deal with it. If I'm still alive in 4 years, I'll look back and laugh.

In class today, everyone had voted for Kerry except one. After giving all our reasons for voting Kerry, we asked her why she voted Bush. Her response was, "duh...I dunno". I assume the entire state of Mississippi is giving the same reply. It's comforting to realize that the future of your nation is decided by "duh...i dunno". The rest of the class session was kinda depressing.

[Daz]

Valid point Ror but I think it's also fair to say more than any other in a long long time that this was a hugely important election. In the context of this election, I actually believe as Im sure many folks on this board do ( and many of my friends in the bay area ) that a different 'monkey on the hotseat' would have made a difference. Not so much about how America is run perhaps. But in it's foreign policy abso-bloody-lutely. Bush has an agenda, and it's pretty fucking frightening. War with Iran is just the start. These are global issues, not just American.

The scary thing is that I really believe that the anti-Bush sentiment around the world, will start to gradually transform into anti-Americanism, since its far easier now to relate the Bush regime to Americans.

I find it very very interesting to look at an electoral map from yesterday. It's pretty generally all the culturally elite 'cool' cities versus gun totin' gay hating abortion banning bibleville. Scary.

[Mojo2k]

you guys are absolutely right!! from now own you should have at least a bachelors degree in order to be able to vote!

voting works so american citezens get to have a say. not just the citizens you deem worthy

i keep hearing this retarded stereotypicaly dividing the voters into 2 classes which are usualy something along the lines of "smart ones, and fag bashing gun toting ones"

its nice to split it up like that so people can pretend that even tho it was a fair election, that in someways it still was not fair because there was too many dumb sheep led to the booths,

Its over, the majority ruled. crying about it will not help, and the fighting and name calling will only serve to seperate us even more. Grind you ever consider the girl did not want to tell you all why she voted how she did because you all would have jumped down her throat just like its happening to certain people in here.

I personaly think bush has made some mistakes. i also think he has done soemthings right. who can say how any other president would have happened during these same situations. Its been a really tough time for us as a nation, and i'm sure it hasnt been a picnic for bush either. i was looking thru snopes.com and 90% of all the anti bush junk on their has all been fakes or either blown out of proportion, just like the bush flipping a berd video going around now giving the illusion that it had soemthign to do with this ellection, he was goofing off years ago when he was govenor an flipped a bird at one of his people. big frickin deal.

I think the attack on afganistan was waranted, but i do wish we would not have stopped before hunting down osama.
I think that going after sadam was a good thing to do even tho i think it was a major mistake to try and link it to the 9-11 atacks, and i think that a lot of it was sloppier than needed.. even tho that may not be directly bushs' fault.. i feel bad for the innocents that we caused injury and deat thoo in the attack, i feel sorrow for the innocents that died under sadams rule before we caught him. i feel even worse knowing that ultimatly it will be for no good because whoever takes charge will be just as bad.

I think a lot of you have it in your head that as soon as kerry was elected the war would stop, the economy would heal rainbows would spring up into the sky and all would be good in the world. and trust me if i ever saw a candidate who i thought could make that much of a diference i would cut my self in half jsut so i could cast 2 votes for him/her. kerry was little more than a figurehead that only had one thing going for him , "he was not bush" the democrats really need to find a candidate that people can back for who he is and what they believe he can do.

maybe in 08 pick ventura he's mentioned running in 08

[Kevin Johnstone]

Everything is scary when you look too closely at it.
Most things are easier when you don't look too deeply into into it.

Americans right now, just seem to me to be more concerned with having a leader who is willing to fight first than make apologies for the past.

There's the same north vs south (I'm not talking about geography) divide in every country, I think with America having felt more untouchable thanks to the Atlantic (in general, I'm not forgetting about Pearl Harbour and previous terrorist attacks) and recently having that feeling shaken out of them they can't help but focus more on external safety and that's what Bush has always pushed.

Whether Bush and Co did or did not cultivate this vulnerability is beside the point. I think a lot of people vote for the one the feel is most likely to take care of their most immediate problem and everything else gets put on hold until that is sorted out.

Of course, thats why other countries are worrying about how much it might take before Americans feel safe again, how much will be enough. I haven't met many people who want to continually police the world, I think they all want to just quieten the terrorist fear they are all touched by and move on.

I know you don't like my what you consider as my tendency to live in the past Daz, but we've lived with a lot of years of terrorism in the news in Britain, I don't think we can do anything other than empathize about how it must shock a country to suddenly learn what that is like.

As , like yourself, I live here now ( and near the heart of Bibleville) I've tried to listen to the local viewpoint and make peace with it as much as I can.
While it looks to me like people are being mislead and that Bush is probably the most insulting excuse for a puppet possible, there's never going to be anyone there to say I'm right and what good would it do me if there were.

I don't think a war against a concept can be won but maybe it can be.

I thought a hopeful point was brought up about all our young competition in the industry being drafted though!

[eepberries]

[ QUOTE ]
Well apologies for making that assumption Scooby.

Snemmy: really? Im not convinced of any correlation at all on this board between the Bush dislikers and their incomes. Actually I think for the most part games artists make pretty resonable salaries. Generally it might be that artistic types tend to be a little more sensitive. But I really dont know why the views on this board dont seem to represent the apparent 50/50 ( ish ) split of the nation on politics.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's somewhat true that more of the artists tend to be more liberal while more of the conservatives either don't use computers, are too poor to afford them, or stay away from anything too artsy or "different".

Of course these are just sweeping generalizations, but I've noticed that they tend to be somewhat true.

[mr.toast]

really? bush won? wierd because when i woke up and turned on cnn i saw this

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/oglethorpe-optimusprime.jpg

[Daz]

I like the bachelors degree voting thing yeah! Good idea.

"i keep hearing this retarded stereotypicaly dividing the voters into 2 classes which are usualy something along the lines of "smart ones, and fag bashing gun toting ones"

hehe well it would be naiive to deny the link! Most people seem to have voted from a moral perspective. Plus, like Ror said, the things that immediately affect them. Like owning guns for instance. I disagree Mojo 100% that anyone was under the misguided notion that Kerry getting in meant instant end to war in Iraq, but it sure as hell would have meant not starting any new ones.

As a foreigner here, It actually pains me to see the foreign opinion of Americans generally decline. I find more and more people back home question me on why the hell I live here 'amongst them'. I find myself constantly 'defending' them and their actions. But that'll get much harder now. Selfish way of thinking I know /images/graemlins/smile.gif There was a stereotype American that I was wary of before moving here, but I have largely not really met him yet. Perhaps that really is because of where I am. It's just aswell I'm in San Francisco, since the list of other places Id want to live in in this country gets smaller all the time. Oh well, theres always that quaint little wet island.

[TomDunne]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the bachelors degree voting thing yeah! Good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got two degrees, so that naturally means my vote counts twice! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Toomas]

One thing i dont get is why so many americans "marry" with one party and then vote for it for the rest of their lives?
I think it would me more appropriate to vote for the candidate who is more suitable for the current situation.
But then again im from a country which has like 1 party for every 100k people and we cant vote president which doesnt mater because he has no real power anyways :P

[sal_manilla]

I think it was stated that there were more people divided between the parties this election than ever. We do vote more for the candidate than the party than we used to. Oh, I also agree about the power....it's way more than just Dubya making things happen out there for sure! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[JKMakowka]

[ QUOTE ]
that having a different monkey on the hotseat each time around will make things 'different'.


[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly out of this reason I originally intended to stay out of this discussion (other than that joke pic I posted earlier).

My oppinion of this is that it is probably good that Bush won (read on!), simply because it might result in a real opposition in the US, not like the Democrats that are basicly "Bush, but nicer".
If Kerry would have won there would be likely the situation we have in Germany right now; A social democrat gouvernment that basicly is not social at all, but hides that AND is playing the "lesser evil game" by saying "be happy that we are in power, because the conservatives would be even worse".
But as you might have guessed by now, I am maybe just projecting my hopes and believes onto the USA.

On an interesting sidenote, I really agree with Rorshach, even though I thought he is a "backwardish nationalist" after reading his posts in the James Bond thread /images/graemlins/wink.gif Congratulations all my respect for you is restored /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Jes]

Where oh where did www.flipfloppingbush.com (http://www.flipfloppingbush.com) go? :/

That place had some pretty nice facts (note- facts.. they had links to official sites with hardcore facts)

What bothers me about this, is that every "why did Bush win/Kerry lose" site, most of the bush supporters actually supported him because he "stayed by his statements".. xP

[ElysiumGX]

[ QUOTE ]
I've got two degrees, so that naturally means my vote counts twice! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not in Ohio it won't. Once is difficult as is. Muwahahaha! I actually had to get in line twice when I voted because I forgot to sign something. Some of the other voters started freaking out.

[PaK]

I can ask without offending those I'm asking...let's give it a try:

Why do Republican voters who are worried about national security vote in an administration who makes international enemies?
--
"But Ross the election was about moral values"

When does the body count of dead Iraqi civilians register as morally unacceptable?

100,000 dead, almost 27 times that of the victims of sept 11th (3,711)
--

Isn't it aparent by now you can't wage war against small, decentralized terrorist cells?

Five hijackers aboard the flight led by Mohamed Atta. If all it takes is five, and...

These aren't abstract concepts:


-They aren't afraid of dieing
-They have no safe place they call home
-They are motivated by faith


Many morally conscious voters probably understand the unparalleled motivating power of faith.

One nation can invade and squash millions of enemies...you can always miss five.

I don't doubt Mojo, Scott or Duke's intelligence one bit. But isn't this stuff undebatable and self evident?

I'm genuinely confused and even a little shocked
....and a lil' hungry, so I have to stop editing this.

-R

[Irritant]

The real reason Bush won? Because the democrats have allowed whiny liberal Hollywood to become their voice, which postivively ELIMATES right leaning moderates from ever voting for a democratic candidate.

The country is not nearly as divided as the far left wants you to believe right now. MOST of the country is still moderate.

[Jes]

PaK: Sadly, some people think, that for every one of their own kind dead, the destruction of thousands of other people is justified... :/

Oh well, politics suck as usual - let's get on to the polies, shall we?! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ShadoKat]

[ QUOTE ]
The real reason Bush won? Because the democrats have allowed whiny liberal Hollywood to become their voice, which postivively ELIMATES right leaning moderates from ever voting for a democratic candidate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! That's EXACTLY what the Fox "News" channel says!

[Irritant]

[ QUOTE ]

Wow! That's EXACTLY what the Fox "News" channel says!

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't know - I don't watch it. Seriously.

[frosty]

John, this is what many people say if you lean slightly to the Reb., they all say, oh so you seen that on O'Reilly or your watching too much Fox news.

People feel better to label other people, it helps to file you away in their memory banks and allocate a geographic area in their mind for you. * I do the same thing. * The problem is when someone is static, or changes alot, it messes up the pre-concluded assumptions and thows them out of wack.

Like old Dukester will surprise me now or then or Milla with post something I'd never have guessed.

[HarlequiN]

I agree with Ror that American's seem to take who wins and who looses, and polotics in general, far more seriously than almost anywhere else in the world.

This would explain why 99% of the political threads on these boards are about American politics, even though the number of American polycounters is far lower than 99%.

Was I pissed that Bush got voted back in? Yeah, a bit, I can't vote but I can still root for who I want to unofficially. But it's over, it's done, he's there for another 4 years and we just have to get on with life and put up with it. The ways these things go, no matter who's in the hot seat most people, including those that voted for them, will moan about a huge amount of choices they make, and say how great it was under the last leader. That's the way of the world.

I can't hold it against the Americans for voting him in again either really, hell, we had Thatcher for, possibly the most reviled Prime Minister in the last 100 years, and the country took a long arsed time to recover from some of the things she did, but she kept getting voted in every damn election. She'd probably still be there if she hadn't quit /images/graemlins/wink.gif

As for the Terrorism thing, where everyone's running around wondering when the next attack is going to happen, well, I'm a Brit, I've had more bomb scares than most americans have had hot dinners, my mothers boyfriend missed being blown up by six minutes one morning (He had a nice view into his office from the street when he got there, since the wall had collapsed). So I have trouble getting used to how much it bothers people since the British way of dealing with it is to just get on with things. If it happens it happens, I'm still more likely to get hit by a car or contract cancer.

Hmmm... I had a point, but I've rambled so much I forgot what it was. Oh well, back to work! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[AstroZombie]

Would you almost say that, in the UK, terrorism has been reduced to more of a "nuisance"? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[sledgy]

In that case wouldn't it more appropriately be referred to as "nuisancism"? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[AstroZombie]

Or would it be: "the struggle against ideological extremists who do not believe in free societies and who happen to use nuisancism as a weapon to try to shake the conscience of the free world."

[frosty]

Thanks for your thoughts Harl, it is good to hear them. Us Americans really have no idea how much terror you wonderful United Kingdom/British/English/Welsh/Irish have experienced.
This whole string makes me so depressed, reading it over and over, I seem stuck so to speak. It is almost like a death. You know Kerry was a pretty poor Democratic choice, what I don’t get about you guys is this anybody but Bush thing was going around. But in some of our minds it was anybody but Kerry. I wish everyone would stop the name calling and the assumptions because anyone who voted for Bush wants to haul guns around in the back window of their pickup and drink beer, hates gays, wants to blow up abortion clinics and approves of the death or Iraqi victums & loves war.. Are you all so narrow minded you believe this? I was actually kinda hoping Bush lost just so the next four years here would be uncluttered by political threads but it is not going to be that way.

[TomDunne]

[ QUOTE ]
I wish everyone would stop the name calling and the assumptions because anyone who voted for Bush wants to haul guns around in the back window of their pickup and drink beer, hates gays, wants to blow up abortion clinics and approves of the death or Iraqi victums & loves war.. Are you all so narrow minded you believe this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe this. Now if you'll excuse me, I've got some trees here that need hugging.

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

More seriously, I have decided that the great flaw in modern American democracy is that there's no way to force Colin Powell and John McCain to run together in 2008. Alas.

[Daz]

You forgot the Scottish ;-)

Youre missing the point frosty. Whilst its all too easy to poke fun and tout Bush supporters as gun toting yokels ( and equally easy to label anti-Bush people as tree hugging liberals ) , most of the people I know that didnt want Bush in power are objecting to his foreign policy. His continuation of leading the US down a road of being globally despised. The regime have an agenda, and part of that is to force democracy on the world. Thats going to mean more war. If you're up for that then theres no problem is there?

Btw, Bush does hate gays ;-p

[Daz]

Talking of the Scottish ( without smilies ) , three killed today thanks to the obviosuly politically motivated request of the US to have British troops move closer to the heart of the chaos:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3983443.stm

[Kevin Johnstone]

Frosty: yes , you're also missing the point in regards my point about terrorism being more common in the UK, though I expect the tone of some of the posts previous to mine would color your reading of it.

It was not my inference that Brits are made of sterner stuff, it was my intent to point out that terrorism is so familiar, that the press and people in general are not so alarmist about it anymore as the decades previous, proved that you can't really beat terrorism by brute strength.

I think in Britain terrorism is looked upon more like 2 old men that are arguing over some old flame, neither of them can remember the full bones of the disagreement and nor does anyone else. We wish they would stop arguing, but we are adult enough to realise that theres nothing we can really say to resolve their differences and stop them arguing, if we could, or they find peace for a while, its inevitable that something else will spur them on again later.

If you can equate how commonplace my described story is to how such stories only become familiar once you have heard them enough, then you might begin to understand the way in which terrorism has become entangled within the British way of life.

We say 'bloody terrorists are at it again' and sigh in the same way you might say ' bloody kids are playing their damn rap music till all hours again'.

It's not that we think it is a smaller problem than you either, its just become less of a focus because it's been commonplace for so long.

That is not to say that the Irish situation is a small thing, it most certainly is not.
Nor am I stating that the fear of being bombed does not scare us, or that we do not feel the loss of those that have died in the struggle.

I hope that clears things up a little.

[joolz8000]

I wasn't sure where to put this, but it's kinda neat... deals with political regions- divides the nation into 10 unique categories...

http://www.massinc.org/Commonwealth/new_map_exclusive/beyond_red_blue.html

[Daz]

Interesting joolz. I shall have a full read later. Meantime I should do *some* work today! In the time you posted that, I just happened to be making this jpeg. Whatever you make of it, you cant deny its really interesting to see the relationship between populous density and politics:

http://home.comcast.net/~dpattenden/images/US_night_votes.jpg

[ndcv]

[ QUOTE ]

As for me being political sheep, you couldnt be farther from the mark PAL. Its fairly well proven scientifically and historically that the Democratic party is elected by those segments of the populace with the lowest incomes, education, and understanding of the political machine. So that makes you the sheep. Line up so I can shear your hairy ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey I was wondering, could you back up the statement that this is "well proven scientifically and historically" with some attributable facts? Here are some facts from the 2000 US Census, from this page about educational census results:

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GCT...-9&-_sse=on (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/GCTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=01000US&-_box_head_nbr=GCT-P11&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U&-format=US-9&-_sse=on)

From looking at this you will see that the ten most educated states/districts, as expressed by the percentage of adults with a bachelor's degree or greater, are D.C. (50.6%), Massachusetts (41.4%), Connecticut (35.3%), Colorado (34.8%), New Jersey (34.7%), Minnesota (34.5%), Maryland (34.2%), New York (33.3%), Virginia (33.1%), and Illinois (32.3%). Of these top ten educated states, eight voted democratic this year.

Now for the least educated states: Nevada (17.3%), West Virginia (17.6%), Mississippi (18.3%), Arkansas (18.8%), New Mexico (20.1%), Kentucky (20.8%), Louisiana (21.0%), Alaska (21.3%), Oklahoma (21.6%), and Alabama (21.8%). Of these ten least educated states, all ten went for Bush.

If you look at the financial data from the census website they generally follow this same pattern, with higher-educated states having higher median and per capita incomes, the one notable exception I noticed being Alaska.

So what is the scientific data backing up the claim that uneducated, poor people vote Democratic?

[ndcv]

DaZ - that kind of look at the voting break down is much more clear when you look at the results within a state, on a county by county basis. On almost every state, it will show the entire state being red, with several small blue counties where the more urban areas are.

For an example, check out this map of Illinois, which went for Kerry:

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/IL/P/00/index.html

[joolz8000]

ndcv- yeah, that claim was pretty ludicrous. Thanks for the research.

Daz- the urban/rural (or metro/retro) divide is even sharper when you look at the county results. I'm having trouble finding one for this election, but I remember the 2000 county map was divided as such. This just blows my mind. I love this quote, taken from that site I posted above; ...David Brooks described this schism in more acerbic tones in the Atlantic Monthly in 2001: "In Red America churches are everywhere. In Blue America Thai restaurants are everywhere."

(dammit Andy, you beat me to it)

[Daz]

Well, I was gonna ask what it all means. But now I understand! Thai restaurants.

[Scott Ruggels]

Daz, here are the county breakdowns. Other than along the Rio Grande in South Texas, the counties with the blue counties probably contain large metropolitan areas and suburbs. and the red counties containing smaller towns and/or exurbs and farms.

From USA Today
http://www.rdwarf.com/edbado/LJPics/2004/2004countymap3.gif

Hope this helps to clarify things.

Scott

[Daz]

That is pretty fascinating thanks. So, Thai restaurants aside, what is the correlation between peoples political persuasion and density of population?! It cant all be about gun laws surely? God? Is it really that simple?

[KeyserSoze]

[ QUOTE ]
force democracy

[/ QUOTE ]

What a prime example of an oxymoron; now if only someone could explain to Bush what is an oxymoron.

[Dukester]

[ QUOTE ]
the counties with the blue counties probably contain large metropolitan areas and suburbs. and the red counties containing smaller towns and/or exurbs and farms.

[/ QUOTE ]

Scott if I may point out one thing. The Dallas-Ft. Worth Metroplex is one hell of a big mess of buildings, people, smog, cars, college degrees, suburbs, game companies and guns /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Hmmm, Dallas and Tarrant counties both are solid red!

(this is in no way, shape or form a dig at Mr Ruggels, but rather just me pointing out that fact to everyone else.)

[AstroZombie]

http://www.piratesandemperors.com/

[ndcv]

Great map Scott! I hadn't seen one yet which showed country-wide counties.

If you compare that to the population density map that DaZ posted, the correlation is pretty damn strong!

[joolz8000]

[ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, Dallas and Tarrant counties both are solid red!


[/ QUOTE ]

As cool as these maps are, they're still making a black-and-white depicition that isn't real. In blue counties there were often 40% red votes, and vice-versa. I'd like to know how much of a democrat vote the above mentioned counties got. Hey, check out Vermont and Massachusetts- almost solid blue. Based on the map Scott provided I've yet to live in a red county, and I've lived in five states. Phew!

Daz- I think religion played a huge part in this election and I find that very troubling. I do think that population density has a distinct influence on people. I'm going to get slammed for this, I just know it. Fine.

Exposure to different kinds of people probably results in more open-mindedness and tolerance. Inversely, lack of such exposure, or being surrounded by people just like you, might lead to elevated levels of fear. As I've stated in other threads, organized religion thrives on fear. Thus, where there's more fear there are more churches.

This is a huge generalization, but I think there's enough truth to it to explain some of how we vote.

[Scott Ruggels]

I wrote this long reply that rambled and didn't go anywhere, wasting about an hour doing it. suffice it to say, it's complicated. it's also very cultural.

For the majority of the red areas, they want to preserve their social traditions, and adopt changes as they see fit, usually slowly, and they despise intrusions on their institutions whether it be from the coasts, the government, or University elites. Since theyare more subject to the whims of nature, they have to save most of their income in order to survive, and resent taxes, fees upon it, they also think they are the expertsof their own lands, and resent outside interests telling them horw to farm or not farm their lands. "The Pursuitof happiness" in the Constitution is code, for the aquisition of land and property. the red states seem to be adamant about property rights, and as an extension, gun rights. the main ideal is Self reliance, and independence. they value Freedom a little higher than Equality.

In the Cities, they want to often change society, because cities concentrate people, so that the can collect in self selecting groups, and use the power of their numbers to gain notice of government and political advantage. Changes in job situations and industries make the economies their more volitile, so they tend to save less money and are not all that averse to a somewhat higher taxation rate than in Rural lands. the cities are where the major universities are, and where the heads of corporations are, so there is a lot fo change. because of the cities population and the one man =one vote principle, there is a massiv amount of political power in a small geographic area. Because of the concentration of wealth in the cities, as wellas the concentration of population, the disparities between rich and poor are larger, leading to a lot more tension. crime is also a factor. therefor the cities tend to discourage private firearms ownership.

this as I understand it in a nutshell.

scott

[joolz8000]

Scott, you're so out of my league. Sheesh. Maybe tomorrow I'll read your essay in Keyser's thread.

Everything you said above makes perfect sense to me. Any thoughts on religion while you're at it?

He's a little bit country, and I'm a little bitta rock an roll!

[Scott Ruggels]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, Dallas and Tarrant counties both are solid red!


[/ QUOTE ]

As cool as these maps are, they're still making a black-and-white depicition that isn't real. In blue counties there were often 40% red votes, and vice-versa. I'd like to know how much of a democrat vote the above mentioned counties got. Hey, check out Vermont and Massachusetts- almost solid blue. Based on the map Scott provided I've yet to live in a red county, and I've lived in five states. Phew!

Daz- I think religion played a huge part in this election and I find that very troubling. I do think that population density has a distinct influence on people. I'm going to get slammed for this, I just know it. Fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not "People" perhaps Joolz, as most rural folks Ihave met have been very kind and hospitable. it's more a case of "ideas".

as to a Color Mix Map. look at this one from princeton University.
a color Mix. Warning! it's Huge! (http://www.rdwarf.com/edbado/LJPics/2004/purple_america_2004.gif)

it still shows that while things are mixed, the only deep blue areas are along the riogrand, and in the urban centers of the coasts and the northeast.

Hope this Helps.

Scott

[joolz8000]

[ QUOTE ]
it still shows that while things are mixed, the only deep blue areas are along the riogrand, and in the urban centers of the coasts and the northeast.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but- it also shows that the only deep red areas are a narrow swath through the plains and Utah. The Southeast and Southwest are surprisingly equal. Also, sections of Colorado and New Mexico are very blue. Great map- thanks!

I know a number of very kind, hospitable rural folks who are nonetheless the definition of racist, sexist, homophobes. 'Moral values' tops their list of national priorities.

[frosty]

I know a number of very kind, hospitable rural folks who are nonetheless the definition of racist, sexist, homophobes. 'Moral values' tops their list of national priorities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the compliment Joolz. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Scott Ruggels]

http://www.dorseygraphics.com/maps/

This make correlates the population that have completed 4 year college degrees, with the votes.

The opinion of Universities are Mixed. The universities have been responsible for amazing technological, and medical breakthroughs, but because ofthe universities dominance by political leftists since the early 1960's, is why they have spawned "Neo-Marxist Economics", "Political Correctness", and think that French Philosphers like Michele Foucault, actually have something worthwhile to say.

There is a massive dislike of Intellectualism for intellectualism's sake, in the U.S. It, like Hedonism is seen as an impractical waste of time, except by those that practice it, whereupon, because of cultural antipathy to it, use it to define themselves, in opposition to the mainstream. Americans like smarts and talent, as long as it has practical, and not anti-social uses.

Hope this helps.

Scott

[Irritant]

The funny thing about those maps is, I kind of well, "duh", of course there are more college graduates in places with more people. They should have done that map with percentages of population who had degress. That would have been a little more interesting.

[oXYnary]

"Americans like smarts and talent, as long as it has practical, and not anti-social uses."

You have to define that better. You are entitled to your opinion, at the same time you are qualified to correctly be descriptive. The term "anti-social" gives a negative correlance to something that doesn't exist in the Intellectual setting you describe. It's great flame bait to disown conflicting views other to your own without any proof.

I think the closest idea you can honestly use is "anti-establishment". Which is far and wide a gap between your hollow, fear driven term. I would ask you show enough respect for your peers to at least be intellectually honest in your description.

thank you.

[ShadoKat]

[ QUOTE ]
Americans like smarts and talent, as long as it has practical, and not anti-social uses.

[/ QUOTE ]

And yet Americans also like Britney Spears and reality TV.

[Scott Ruggels]

Anti-establishment, may fit, though it's a bit limited.

Scott

[Daz]

Scott, those are great. Joolz, I think you're both onto something with the reasons for the differences of opinion. I grew up in London, a very very mixed cultured and raced city of 15 million people. I grew up surrounded by people that were all very different from each other in so many ways. Which is why I struggle to understand the thinking of people in rural America ( and probably rural anywhere! ). That thinking, I personally think is founded on the concept of what you dont know, you fear.

Sorry to harp on about the whole map thing, but I do find it rather fascinating. It makes me wonder If there are similiar correlations in other countries between urban/rural areas and left/right political leanings. More interesting maps!

http://home.comcast.net/~dpattenden/images/map1.jpg

So, not much has changed since 1860 then? ;-p

http://home.comcast.net/~dpattenden/images/map2.jpg

[gauss]

all i can say is those are some very thoughtful, well written and illuminative posts on the subject, Mr. Ruggels. thank you.

[iansnyder]

Woah, a whole bunch of stuff to read, but still my favorite post:

Where's James Bond when you need him?

KDR_11k

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[joolz8000]

Sorry Everybody;

http://72.3.131.10/gallery/1/

And another IQ chart;
http://chrisevans3d.com/files/iq.htm

[Dukester]

mE NO NEVER TAKE NODUM EYE-QEW TAIST!!!

[oXYnary]

the doubts begin (and rightly so)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-11-05-stickershock_x.htm

[joolz8000]

more funny-
http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4045

I've worked through the anger and the depression- bring on the giggles! (oh- good one, Duke!)

[AstroZombie]

http://www.streamload.com/donnyd413/Blogclips/Bob_Kerry_Zahn_-1.wmv?a=stream

Basically it is Bob Kerrey telling Paula Zahn that the 9/11 commisions findings indicate the President Bush was blatantly negligent and partially responsible for the 9/11 attacks. I wonder how much more of this crap is going to come to light now that the election is over.

[gauss]

joolz--when i saw that today i thought of you and figured you'd get a laugh /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[KDR_11k]

You know, this "we'll put money there, there and there while cutting taxes" seems to be standard among conservatives, I remember the programme of the conservatives here last election. Even before it was known the state had no money we thought "how are you going to PAY all that?" when reading the leaflets. Then, when it became known that the financial situation was worse than thought before they blamed the socialdemocrats for leaving too little money in there for their plans to work. Fifteen years ago the conservatives spent so much money we're still suffering from the debt they caused (though they blame it on the current administration).
I guess that's what democrats with all their tax raising and so on are for, democrats make money for the state and conservatives spend it...

[joolz8000]

Here's my buddy Ted Rall shedding more light on the urban/rural debate.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=st...culturalelitist (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=127&e=3&u=/ucru/confessionsofaculturalelitist)

[Sett]

Reading though this thread and the other one that asked why they voted for Bush I starting to see a pattern.

Less-educated rural poor that fear change vote Rep.
Somewhat more educated urbanites what change so they vote Dem. (I don't see the Dems as much of a changing party ether)

The path of the Republican party is clear -reduce funding to education to ensure future election wins.

[Daz]

You cant deny that this craigslist posting is pretty funny:

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/47785163.html

[Rick Stirling]

http://www.sorryeverybody.com/gallery/1/

[ghost-d]

FAHRENHEIT 9/11

[LordScottish]

hahaha it's a bit late to discuss this

[MightyPea]

What's with the torrent of utter, UTTER idiots?

"NONSENSICAL STATEMENT IN CAPS IN MY FIRST POST"
right on!

[bearkub]

Don't ressurect old threads, please. And...why this one?

locked