Pierce Brosnan - "Goodbye 007"

[KMan]

Just saw this earlier this morning.
MI6 report on recent magazine interview (http://www.mi6.co.uk/sections/articles/bond_21_brosnan_quit2.php3)

http://www.mi6.co.uk/sections/articles/images/pierce_brosnan_quit3.jpg

I'm definitly disappointed about it, but at the same time he was starting to show his age in the last film. I think a fifth film with him would have made that easily apparent. One more, and I think he would have had that 'creepy old' look to him, when he's bagging bond girls left and right.

At least he's out with a bang.

[sundance]

pierce brosnan was the best bond and anyone who thinks different can suck my P99...

[Kevin Johnstone]

I'm glad mummies boy has stopped trying to follow in Connery's footsteps. I always thought he was useless and feminised the role.

I think my views are clear enough that I dont need to vote.

[Dukester]

[ QUOTE ]
pierce brosnan was the best bond and anyone who thinks different can suck my P99...

[/ QUOTE ]

(1) Connery
(2) Moore
(3) Dalton
(4) Brosnan
(5) Lazenby
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Jes]

No way, Brosnan did WAY better than Dalton...

Oh, and I couldn't decide between Connery and Moore, so I voted Moore because he needs the support!! xD
+ Yeah baby, I'ma vertex! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Marine]

can't remember where i saw it but dougray scott, the badguy in mi:2, is up for bond.
and connery is bond.

[sundance]

that was in the sunday mirror a few weeks back, but could be complete tripe.

[TomDunne]

I'm the one with the Dalton vote. I liked that his character was the most serious of the lot, and thus he felt the most real to me. The tongue-in-cheek and cliched aspects of the Moore and Brosnan Bonds really turned me off to them - too smarmy or something. Connery was good, but... dunno, something about his performance didn't do it as much for me. I think his macho thing seems a bit too much like an act (though Connery probably really is that way /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

Speaking of this, whom they replace Brosnan with is less important to me than where they take the sereis from here. Things have become so vanilla and generic in the series that even the recent titles fail to be compelling; "Die Another Day" and "Tomorrow Never Dies" are so dull, and I'm still irked that they wasted the title "The World Is Not Enough" on a film that was not explictly about Bond, his history and/or family. The days of legitimately interesting plots and memorable foes have been thoroughly replaced by gratuitous explosions, overwrought guest appearances (rememebr when Bond girls were relative unknowns?) and inexcusably whored product placements. Here's hoping (hah!) that the next generation of Bond films can find greatness instead of regurgitating the current tired and uninspired formula.

[Dukester]

I am a big fan of Dalton also, but I can't rate him above Connery or early Moore.
I agree too, that it's about time for a "non gimmicky" more spy oriented Bond film, like "For Your Eyes Only", "The Living Daylights" or even "From Russia With Love"

[Kevin Johnstone]

Nice speech Verm. Not often I can say that about your opinions but having been a large bond fan in the past and having been totally soured on it since he's been turned into another american action hero it's pleasing to hear others ranting about the direction Bond has been taken.

The last film was more about Mrs.Bond and her incompetant husband... plus, when Bond has americans looking superior to brits... you know its not bond anymore.

I've read that Connery WAS that way, he used to punch the stunt doubles for real even. It's interesting reading finding out about how bond all came about from book to film to selecting Connery and so on.

[TomDunne]

Glad we can find some common ground, ror /images/graemlins/wink.gif I absolutely feel that the loss of what made Bond so interesting coincided with the overall dilution of 'Britishness' with the series, for lack of a better word. Things like replacing the Aston Martin with a BMW were frankly disgusting. I can tolerate product placement to a degree, but that was fucking with a part of Bond's identity just to make a few bucks. Does he stop drinking martinis for a couple flicks if Budweiser makes a big enough offer? Things haven't been the same since Broccoli died - he was an American, but he understood the character.

I figure you're right about Connery; he likely wasn't doing much acting in his films, and that's why he seems so over the top sometimes.

[Daz]

Connery of course. I just dont see how anyone else is even in the running. Brosnan was a pretty boy and not much more, Dalton was a nancy boy who showed far too much emotion, Moore was a clown, and Lazenby was, well, Lazenby /images/graemlins/smile.gif

As for whos next, yeah fellow Scot Dougray Scott has been in the running, but then again so have quite a few others. Most of it has been heresay and rumour. Personally I think Clive Owen might be worth a shot, but would probably need to toughen up a bit. He was convincing in the BMW films stuff, but then the acting was hardly challenging stuff. Still, the same could be said for the Bond role. Im not the least bit dissapointed Kman. Ive looked at that mans face far too much /images/graemlins/smile.gif Anyway, cant say much more on the subject. Loose lips sink ships ;-)

[Daz]

Oh and btw Verm, totally agreed that important though the lead role is, the direction of the movies seems far more important after the appalling travesty that was 'Die Another Day'. Now a Tarantino directed Bond. That would be interesting.

[ScoobyDoofus]

I am guessing Im in the minority here, but I always really liked Brosnan as Bond. He was 2nd only to Connery for me. Conner was the original and he holds #1 for sentimental/nostalgic reasons more than anything else.

What made his movies slightly poorer was the direction and writing. The villans just haven't been as interesting lately it seems, nor have the bond girls. I also agree about the Aston Martin, although in the last one didn't he drive an Aston Martin Vanquish?

[eepberries]

[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of this, whom they replace Brosnan with is less important to me than where they take the sereis from here. Things have become so vanilla and generic in the series that even the recent titles fail to be compelling; "Die Another Day" and "Tomorrow Never Dies" are so dull, and I'm still irked that they wasted the title "The World Is Not Enough" on a film that was not explictly about Bond, his history and/or family. The days of legitimately interesting plots and memorable foes have been thoroughly replaced by gratuitous explosions, overwrought guest appearances (rememebr when Bond girls were relative unknowns?) and inexcusably whored product placements. Here's hoping (hah!) that the next generation of Bond films can find greatness instead of regurgitating the current tired and uninspired formula.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thank god somebody agrees with me on this. It seems like recent James Bond films have focused only on dousing the movie with special effects, James Bond cliches, and "omg flashy gadjits lolleroo."

Imo, Goldeneye was the best James Bond movie. It was a perfect mix of action, dreariness, and crime.

[Daz]

Yeah it was an Aston Martin allright Scoob. But not just any Aston. It was bloody invisible! WTF?!

[Kevin Johnstone]

Looking back, its clear why Connery suited the role. The same logic worked with casting Vinnie Jones as a bit of a hard nut in Lock Stock. Bond was a bit of an uncultured rogue, out to get whatever he could with a smattering of sophistication and charm that seemed not so much tacked on but slipped in now and then to fool people.

I liked that, it rings true to me and I'll always have a giggle knowing that the most dynamic onscreen portrayal of english charm and sophistication has a Scotland Forever tattoo under that white shirt.

[Daz]

Ahaha I was waiting for that to crop up from you Ror. It was only a matter of time ;-)
It is kinda funny though. ( particularly for me in the middle of a half English, half Scottish family! ) Theres many a time in his movies where he gets to say, or Moneypenny gets to say 'For England....' and I always wondered what he felt about saying that. It always struck me as weird that they at least didnt use the term 'Britain'. But anyway, I suspect what your thoughts are on the concept of Britain as a united nation anyway Ror ;-)

I was watching one of his movies the other day. I forget which one, but its just before he kills a guy by throwing him in a bathtub and an electric fire in after him. Anyway, moments before, Bond is mid snogging a Bond chick, and he catches an assailant in the reflection of her eye. As the guy lunges at him with blunt weapon, Bond spins around and uses the girl as a shield and she gets whacked on the head out cold!

Pure Connery! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[thnom]

To be honest I'm glad and I hope next time they choose a fucking an English person. I for one don't want another fake english person, I want a REAL english person, as the role is meant to be.

Sundance, no you can suck my p99. No way in hell is the best bond, nor will he ever.

[Daz]

Beside what Ian Fleming originally envisaged, why should he be specifically English? Hes a spy working for Mi6. Thats the British government. ( That'll be England, Scotland and Wales in case youre unsure ). I dont think Connery ever tried to disguise his accent in the role. Which is why it sounds even more weird when he says 'For England'.

[TomDunne]

thnom, I hate to disillusion you, but the character as Ian Fleming wrote him was born the son of a Scot, Andrew Bond. In all likelihood, the modern conception of Bond as English comes from decades of American viewership that doesn't really differentiate England from Britain.

On the subject of new Bonds, I really do like Clive Owen, but I don't know that he'd be right in the role. He comes across as a bit too blue collar to me, without that sort of polished upper-class air that Bond has (you can be a working class guy sipping martinis and gambling on roulette spins, I guess, but it's a bit of a stretch in this role). Also, Owen is already 40. While he's still a decade younger than Brosnan, I wonder if MGM might not want someone they can get more mileage out of. On the other hand, I've also heard Jason Statham's name linked to the role as well, so perhaps older is better... *shudder*. As an interesting geek sidenote, Clive Owen did the voice work for the main character in Privateer 2, way back in 1995 and will play Dwight in the upcoming Sin City movie - pretty cool.

Daz, if you should ever happen to have confirmed insider info on who the next Bond actor will be, I hearby authorize you to email me. Top Secret, of course /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[MoP]

Personally, I think Brosnan was a great choice for Bond. He plays the role with a certain panache and style. Granted, some of the more recent movies' villains and "gadgets" have been lame to the point of butchery (newspaper tycoon!? invisible car!?), but I reckon Goldeneye is a really good Bond film. The intro to Tomorrow Never Dies is very good too...

In my opinion, I rank Connery, Moore and Brosnan all at equal levels of Bond-ness, just for different reasons. They all fit the role, I don't think any of them are "definitive" though.
Dalton was good, but not quite right for some reason ... possibly TOO serious and poker-faced.
Lazenby was just god-awful ("There are... people out there!").

I'll be interested to see who they pick next. Dougray Scott might turn out to be a pretty good Bond.

You know we're in trouble if they pick Hugh Grant... hahahah!

MoP

[Kevin Johnstone]

Daz: When I was a kid I just thought Connery was the coolest and Moore was the funniest and didnt look any further than that. Age and living in other countries / reading up on our history has taught me to appreciate Connery as bond for a whole host of other reasons heh.

I always laughed when he said ' The things I do for England'

I think he was happy to play bond as due to his upbringing he had to be taught how to talk and act like a gentleman before he could assume the role properly and his obsession about not feeling safe until he was a millionaire probably made it easy to utter whatever was required of him ...'The things I do for Connery' and so on.

I like Connery a lot, he has always tried to be himself, never allowed them to hide who he is, has proudly represented himself as a scotsman wherever he has gone and I respect that.

Verm: as you say, good to have common ground. I agree about Owen, hes got his moments but he's no bond.I really enjoyed him in The Croupier.

[Dukester]

I think Connery is always good. Connery in a bad movie is still the one good thing about the movie. He was perfect as an "IRISH" cop in The Untouchables.

As far as Dalton as Bond goes, I think he was a perfect choice, but he got screwed because of the legal battles over the Bond franchise that were going on. Only two movies in I don't know how many years. He finally had to just leave and move on.

I really have always like Moore. His Bond movies to me have either been quintessential or total dogs. I took exception that in some movies he had way too much fun with the character. Still Roger had some of the best cold blooded, license to kill, kills. (LTKK)

The best LTKK for me was Connery in "Dr. No" the Smith and Wesson you've had your six shots line, but Moore would solidly remind you that he would kill too. In "For Your Eyes Only" when he kicked that assholes car off the cliff and in "The Spy Who Loved Me" when the fat cuy was hanging onto his tie on the side of the building. But the absolute best Moore-Bond killing was in what I consider one of the absolute worst Bond movies. "Moonraker" When they went out bird hunting and they had the sniper up in the tree to kill Bond. He took his shot at the bird and the bad guy said "You missed" and Bond said something like "Really?" and the sniper fell out of the tree! I love that seen, but detest (somewhat, it is Bond after all) the movie.

Incidentally, I have not seen "Die Another Day" yet. I don't know why, I just have not seen it yet which seems strange to me.

[Daz]

I wouldnt waste your time Dukester! Honestly I thought it was shockingly bad.

[Dukester]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldnt waste your time Dukester! Honestly I thought it was shockingly bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL
I will heed your advice, but at some time I'm sure I will see it!

Somehow having Halle Berry play in it reminds me of the Heather Graham character as the American secret agent in the second Austin Powers movie.

In Autsin Powers...good.
In a Bond film...bad! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Daz]

haha noted Verm.

Certainly Statham and indeed surely even Connerys roots are substantially more blue collar than Owen?! I think you might think of Owen as being blue collar because he doesnt tend to disguise his roots accent wise, but I think hes actually a posh lad really /images/graemlins/smile.gif Btw, anyone who hasnt seen the BMW films series, theyre really quite well made: http://usa.bmwfilms.com/clap.asp?template=index&country=usa&film=&start=Y

But yeah urgh, Stathams cockney accent and thuggish demeanour as Bond?! Nah wouldnt be right mate! /images/graemlins/smile.gif What the hell accent was he trying to pull off in 'The Transporter' anyway?!

[sundance]

moore only made one decent bond movie and that was the spy who loved me. the rest were varying degrees of shit.

connery was good in goldfinger, thunderball and you only live twice.

dalton was ok, but needed to do a third to really settle into the role

lazenby was utter shit 'this never happened to the other fella' W...T...F..?

brosnan had connery's machismo, dalton's seriousness, a hint of moore's comedy and his own irish charm.

[Rick Stirling]

Dont diss Lazenby. He did a great job.

Daz - I was under the impression that Northern Ireland was British too?

So far there has been a Scotsman,an Englishman, an Aussie, another Englishman, a welshman, and an Irishman. I reckon the Isle of Man is due a go.

[thnom]

Anything fine as long as they're not outside the British Isles.

Off-topic: But do English accents always sound weird, yet American sounds normal in films? I'm asking as an Englishman to another.. (as it's pretty much set with Americans). But you never get that normal feel unless it's an English film, like Layer Cake.

[Kevin Johnstone]

thnom: if your own language seems odd to you, you're watching too many american films.

[frosty]

007 – I never have watched as much of the 007 films as I’d like to have. At home as a snot nosed brat we did not get to see them. Most likely the way women were treated. And the same goes at home now. Too macho on women. And very chauvinistic. Not that I have a problem with it, some girls do though.

[Rick Stirling]

Oh, give them a go. The early ones were GOOD films, not just good Bond films. It's a shame that Brosnan never really got a chance to shine in one with a good story.

Niven, now Niven was a great Bond.

[Dukester]

I'm surprised to see our man at Q-Branch hasn't weighed in on this.

And yes Frosty, you should try and catch them when they are on.

[nitzmoff]

Connery is the true Bond of his day, but in the age of the metro-sexual, sadly, Brosnan gets the nod as like Ror said, he's practically a lady.

Thought it's interesting how many Moore-lovers there are here. I read that Moore was quite clumsy in real life, for example, when he enter's Moneypenny's office and tosses the hat on the rack, he never could do it. he tried many, many times until finally having to have a separate shot where it is thrown off camera.

Much like the Three Stooge's Moe's uncanny ability at pie-aiming, Connery landed his hat by himself, everytime. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Daz]

Rick - well I was using the term 'Britain' not 'UK'. Is it not termed 'the United Kingdom of Great Britain *and* Northern Ireland? Surely even Northern Irishmen that pledge allegiance to the Queen ( God that sounds so silly in this day and age ) dont consider themselves 'British' at all but Irish?

As I understand it The 'United Kingdom' encompasses Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So technically Northern Ireland is not part of Britain, but it is part of the U.K. Perhaps Ive just been living amongst Californians too long so my geo-polticial knowledge beyond the State has gone out the window. But I dunno, youre the native you tell me. If I I got it wrong apologies.

thnom: Er, no /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sundance]

daz is correct. anyone who lives in england scotland or wales is british and a citizen of the UK. the northern irish are northern irish and UK citizens.

[Kevin Johnstone]

but all non english members of britain and the uk are united in their want to not be linked to england woop woop!

[Daz]

snore!

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sundance]

you're all just jealous cos england has the best football, rugby and cricket teams

[Mishra]

[ QUOTE ]
you're all just jealous cos england has the best football, rugby and cricket teams

[/ QUOTE ]

"football" aka soccer.

[TomDunne]

Hehehe... I love the squabbles amongst Britons over their national identities and all that. The whole nation isn't even as big as the state of Oregon, but to hear it told you'd think walking from Scotland into England teleported you into a different hemisphere or something. It's all just so quaint /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Daz]

Verm, Im in a half Scottish, half English family so I get really bored of the Scots predisposition to resent their English counterparts very quickly. Ive just got no time for that kind of predisposed xenophobia. But then, Im far more internationally minded now than I used to be.

The thing is Verm, you bring up an amusing point about the border. If you were to walk across the border from a provincial Scottish town into a provincial English one ( or vice versa of course ), the people, their culture ( and no, Im not talking about their inherited national identity culture like bagpipes. Im talking about modern culture, 'Pop' culture ), their everyday lives and what they like and dislike, the business they go about, is pretty much exactly the fricking same. It just seems petty and non progressive to me.

[TomDunne]

Yeah, Daz, that's what I figured. I mean, practically speaking, England and Scotland are so almost completely identical that the provincialism is very amusing. It's not that there aren't differences, it's that they're played up to such an extreme. Compared to America, Britain is so homogenous that we (Americans) largely don't have a problem lumping them all together. Hell, forget Scottish and English. Try putting a Texan, a person from SoCal, one from Boston and one from Minnesota in the same room and convince me that they're not from different countries. If I remember, you moved from San Fran to LA - I bet you've seen about as much cultural shift between those two Californian cities as exists between Scotland and England. But America was always this way, melting pot and whatnot, so I guess provinciality isn't such a big deal here anymore. In effect, the realms of Scotland, England and Wales are nothing more than states in a country called Britain, but nationalistic fervor will never allow them to be recognized as such. It's still good for a laugh, though /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Daz]

Indeed. They watch the same shit on TV, laugh at the same comedy, listen to the same music, eat the same shit food and follow the same trends. So one 'side' trying to make out that the other is inferior in some way makes me laugh! Both sides of the border are guilty of that. But personally Ive seen far more 'predisposition' on the Scottish side to be resentful than vice versa. And I dont think they'd even deny that. But to attribute it to history is just a lame excuse. It's simply an enjoyable habit that's gone on too long for them to break out of.

Im back in SF now, my stint in LA wasnt permanent. But hell yes, those two cities and cultures are worlds apart and theyre in the same bloody State.

I see what you're saying, but my living abroad has over the years has made me realise that actually, people are the same everywhere. Some just talk funnier than others. Where I work and live, there is such a wealth of different people, cultures, nations that when I hear people talking to me now, Im not even conscious of what accent theyre saying it in anymore. Just wether or not theyre making any sense /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Gosh, a bit of a diversion from 007! :]

[KMan]

Wow! For once I've posted a topic in GD that didn't immediately drop to the bottom.
Yay!

[TomDunne]

Yeah, I thought the SF/LA example would work for you, Daz /images/graemlins/smile.gif It's amazing how different those cultures are, and yet neither of them would consider themselves as anything other than Californian. Insofar as your getting acclimated to all the different cultures, there's nothing to say to that but "welcome to America!" Even in the less diverse places, you still get a lot of cultural mixing - it actually weirded me out a bit being in Europe, everyone was mostly just plain white folks! In America, you get a little bit of everyone just about everywhere, and most definitely along the coasts. For the most part, I appreciate that and think it makes for a better (or at least more interesting) America, but I sometimes am a bit disappointed at the American lack of national heritage that, say, England has. Just not much sense of history, and I think that lends to a somewhat diminished (cheapened?) national culture. It's not terribly surprising that America is so hung up on style or appearance, as we don't all necessarily share a common depth to relate at a deeper level.

Oh, yeah - good job, KMan /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Kevin Johnstone]

hey Daz, to be blunt you can shove yer boredom up yer arse m8! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

It's easy to sit on high and dispense with reason and say you are bored. The facts of the matter are that the Union of Crowns was established upon Blackmail and corruption and rigged to ensure that Scotland had a representative percentage of 1/6 the parliament it was meant to have an equal share in.

This 'rigged game of cards' was England's first step putting Scotland through the wringer and essentially fucking up our economy and sharing its debts with us and ensuring we've spent the time since then as 2nd class citizens in terms of Education, Trade, Health and pretty much every other medium with which you may choose to measure equality.

England used the same tactic also when it came to 'the irish problem' also. What England couldnt take by force they took by backstabbing, bribery and cooersion.

I'm sorry that I'm literally at you throat here in response to you light , off the hand dismisal of the situation. I appreciate that you were not looking to cause offense.

But I can't stand your attitude of 'I dont really know the full facts but it doesnt really affect me, im tired of half listening to the facts, can't we just move on as it was a long time ago' as its so bloody common and it infuriates me becuase I HAVE read up on the facts more and more as I have gotten older.

The sooner Scotland and Ireland break free of the imperial yoke of England the better imo.

And as for your worldview of things being the same on each side of the border... yeah right!

While Newcastle is pretty similar to Scotland, the further south into england you go the greater the difference until it becomes profound. Afterall, if its not London and the surroundeding communities, its not really England as far as parliament is concerned.

Ach, I've said too much already. You touched a nerve, I'm halfway through reading up on the Scottish Insurrection of 1820 and its just another in a long line of books that contains more facts about the history between england and scotland that cause revulsion in me.

For the americans reading. Think back to your war of Independance with England, if your own countrymen had been bribed and threatened into selling you out and you had spent the ensuing years having all your heros executed as traitors for trying to fight for freedom.... if thats how it was for you, then you would be Scottish , or Irish.

While America was fighting its war of independance, the French were going through their revolution and both Scotland and Ireland were inspired to the ideal of republicanism but both countries efforts were repeatedly infiltrated by english paid spies that sold us out.

Imo, the struggle for independance is still ongoing for Scotland & Ireland and I hope we win free sooner rather than later.

So for those of you who don't understand I hope you understand a little more. Theres centuries of history of being downtrodden involved, the attempted eradication of our culture, a constant set of laws that has caused any young scotsman or irishman when looking for success to have to leave his country and family. Its been going on for a long time and it will never be washed away by the attitude of 'it was a long time ago, I'm tired of hearing about it'

[Dukester]

Okay, I'm always up for a James Bond thread, but now this has really gotten interesting and educational.
While as far as I know, I'm mostly from an Irish/English background, I do prefer half my whisky and all my dogs to be Scottish /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[TomDunne]

Ror, since I wouldn't know where to begin looking this up, can you give me a brief rundown of exactly how modern England is oppressing/suppressing modern Scotland? I'll admit that my immediate reaction is that this is much ado about nothing, as the realms' similarities are infinitely more significant than their differences. The American Revolution doesn't really help me here as an example, because I don't quite see how England of 1775, supreme imperial power on the Earth, relates to England of 2005, a democratic nation whose influence really doesn't extend far beyond her borders. Racially, Scots and Englishmen are the same basic stock, so what's the basis for any perceived discrimination?

[Daz]

Phew /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Well, Ive read everything you wrote. I shouldn't really be suprised.

First off, *IT DOES AFFECT ME*. I shall repeat. Half my family are Scottish, the other English. Most of my time in the UK is spent in Glasgow. Which can often be not alot of fun as an Englishman let me tell you pal. But I dont need to tell you. You would probably know that. It does affect me. I bet you I've experienced an awful lot more racial abuse ( yes Ror. Racial. Thats what were talking about here right? Celts V. Anglo Saxons? Thats how you see the 'struggle' when you read your books isn't it? ) at the hands of your countrymen than you have of mine.

I have to ask you. Do you meet someone and hold resentment toward them or think less of them just because theyre English by birth? Or is your 'beef' purely with the English establishment?

Never at any point did I say that I was bored of your nations history and struggle with opression from ours. ( It's a facinating history. ) Never did I repute the historical facts nor claim to know them in any more detail than a Scotsman. But moreover that I was bored with your peoples nations presdisposed resentment toward ours in the modern age. Yes bored. I'll repeat. Bored. Im sorry that my boredom annoys you.

To summarize my thoughts about England and Scotland: I respect and like your country and people alot. I understand that you want to disassociate yourselves from England. I understand that you want to be pissed about shit that happened in the past. I dont give a shit what Scotlands tie is either politically or otherwise to England. What I dont like and think is dumb is the Scottish having a predisposed resentment of the English. Theyre not so different from each other in the modern day.

I think you live in the past Ror. I think you have a romanticized and outdated view of what it means to be Scottish ; to fight for freedom from oppresion. To hate the English. I just think that thats an outdated notion. Thats all Im really saying here.

More importantly, I dont think it's very progressive. Where do you draw the line? How far do you want to go back in history for christs sake?! So you're proud to be a celt. What about me? Where are my roots? Am I interested in my origins? Sure, but not at the expense of resenting somebody not having the same. How far do I wanna go back? Oliver Cromwell? Anglo Saxon? Saxons came from Germany for Gods sake. Does that make me German? Roman? Norman? Viking? Were all mongrels mate. The British Isles as you well know has been invaded since the beginning. It's a mixed bag of genes. I know alot of English wankers, but I know plenty of Scottish ones too.

/and no, that last line wasn't aimed at you. I was just trying to finish on something equalizing.

[TomDunne]

Just in case we decide to pick teams later on, I'm Thomas Gerald Dunne, son of James Thomas Dunne, son of Patrick Joseph Dunne, the first of our line born in America. The rest are all buried in counties Clare, Galway and Mayo on the west coast of Ireland. I think this entitles me to hate the English, too, right? Of course, it also entitles me to eat all of the boiled potatoes and cabbage I want, and I'll generally take a pass on that...

*edit*

Amusingly, I made a compltely unrelated reference to the Norman conquest earlier today in Rick's spelling thread. If that arrow had missed good ol' Harold at the Battle of Hastings, maybe we're having a slightly different conversation, eh? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Kevin Johnstone]

Aye, we're all mongrels m8, but the scottish are stereotyped and treated as such.

I don't live in the past, my resentment toward England is directed toward the establishment and is borne out of growing up in Scotland as a Scot and is nothing to do with my reading up on Celtic times. My reading up on the Celts and searching history has been borne out of my search to find out if things have always been like this and if things were different in the past, how did it go wrong.

For a Scot its very hard to grow up and not resent the English. It starts very early at school age when we got our summer holidays and there were no cartoons on until the last week of our holidays because thats when the English school kids would begin their summer holidays.

When in the classroom a scottish child was slapped or chided for using their own language ( which predates the English Language considerably) and replying 'Aye'.

As we get older we learn the reason for this is the new education being set down for us from England is designed to get rid of our old language and that when we come to career choosing age we will need to fit into the English ideals.

We then learn that although we are studying the same course to the same standard, the award given at the end of the course is called a different thing in Scotland than it is in England and in fact the scottish grade is regarded as lower that the English equivalent.

There are many many instances like this that puncuate growing up on Scotland as a Scot. I don't think that this can be understood without firsthand knowledge and the fact that Glasgow has as many racists blindly blaming the wrong englishmen as Londo has racists blindly stereotyping Scots as mirroring an image they themselves created, you are a little blind to that; with good reason, I expect I would react the same way.

Facts of the matter are that I reserve judgement upon everyone. The best friend I have is an Englishman. He lives still in Chester Le Street , I still phone him bi monthly after a couple of drams as he's one of the very few people I can actually 'talk' to.

The English Establishment has specifically set out to eradicate our culture, we've only recently started realising once more that this is something we should try to reinvigorate. We can only go so far though. Recently, before I left Scotland it was finally spelled out good and proper at the last elections that we have a playdo parliament in Scotland that doesnt truly have the power to make its own decisions or vote for independance.

The Stone of Destiny although returned in the hopes of quelling the spirit of rebellion that was stoked up again by , of all things, Braveheart; is still the property of the Queen and the Scottish public have to pay 2 pound to sneek a peek at it.

To be clear, no I dont blindly hate the English, but I've educated myself enough to understand who the real enemy is. Its not simply the english establishment, its the 2dimensional viewpoint that has been generated on both sides of the border by lack of information.

At the end of the day, as ashamed as I am that you have experienced racism at the hands of Scots. I can understand their hatred and though they have lashed out at the wrong person they have far more right to lash out than the English do.

You mentioned you were a lot more 'internationally minded' this days. I don't think you are. I am , well to a certain extent simply because I've lived in more countries for a longer period of time than you ( i think, though I am assuming here and that could cost me!!) and have married a woman from a non english speaking country.

I discovered that most of europe has the same viewpoint toward England that I do and that it is NOTHING to do with history and nothing to do with living in the past but simply to do with how England conducts itself today and what its attitude is to other people.

Almost every time the English football supporters go to another country there is violence, everytime the Scottish football supporters travel abroad there is no violence ( and as has been brought up here, we always bloody lose dont we?!).

In television coverage a few of the commentators have spent the last 2 decades refusing to referring to the Scottish as anything other than ' Jocks', what is the English equivalent for that Daz? I mean, people from Pakistan have the racial slur of Pakis, Black people have the racial slur of Niggers, Scottish people are caleld Jocks or Scots, what is the english equaivalent?

I'm saying that an to a certain extent, for an Englishman to complain to Scotsman about racism is amatuer league. The only slur I know of that applies to the English is Limey or Brits and thats not specific to England really.

I apologise for the long winded response. I have attempted to explain moreso this time without my previous posts passion and tried to be more logical and also not to recount the many historical episodes that mirror the modern day plight of the Scottish.

----

Using Messageboards for philosophical debates or debates about our ideological beliefs in general is kind of like using a shovel and a pickaxe to perform open heart surgery.

I don't see us reaching much of an accomadation as we are mostly on opposite sides of the fence and we have each had our racial slaps.

You should bear in mind though, England was the country that initiated all this and it has been England that has guided the development of the situation through the policy it has set down. From the sounds of things, you've been forced into the shoes of an outsider in Glasgow when you were not one, that experience should allow you to empathize my anger at Scotland being reduced to the role that it has been within Britain.

I think I am a romantic, I have a romantic turn of phrase but that is not the same as romantacizing the past. I understand more clearly than most what the average Scotsman can be like when angry and hurt. I know we are not who we once were, but I see England as responsible for that to a large degree.

The shame of it is that this situation has gone on so long that the Scottish History is more replete than most with betrayal. We're a nation that has betrayed itself so often that we are mostly ashamed to be who we are.

Its that sense of self loathing, of blaming ourselves for our situation that informed Rentons Speech in Trainspotting ( a speech I do NOT agree with btw).

So I like to think of myself as a realist. If I were just a romantic, I wouldnt be so much of an older misery guts would I? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thats my attempt to end on an upbeat note.

[Josh_Singh]

so uh yeah, that part in golden eye where that chick kills the dude by doing him...that was rad.

[MoP]

I'm an English guy, living in Scotland, sharing a flat with 5 Scottish guys. I have never heard an Englishman bad-mouthing the Scots. I have heard Scotsmen refer to English people as "Fucking English Bastards"... and they seem to have no reason for it.

Granted, Rorshach, you have your history and you're evidently bitter about it, so you might be mildly justified in feeling angry - but far too many Scots seem to "hate" the English purely because they've grown up with it. If there's any reason for the modern Englishman to be pissed off at the modern Scotsman, it's because (in my experience), the Scottish have a vague, generalised and quite frankly unnecessary hatred of UK citizens south of the border.

After all, it's not like every English person is secretly plotting to bring down the Scottish nation.

I'm all for regional parliament and devolution in Scotland and the north-east of England. I agree that London seems to be distanced, lifestyle and attitude-wise, from the north of the UK.

Oh, and Rorshach, why are you indicating that calling the Scottish people "Scots" is a racial slur? That doesn't make much sense.

Bleh. I have more Scottish friends than English. My best friend of 10 years (more than half my life) is Scottish, as are most of his family. They have no problem with English people. I don't see why you should let ancient history dictate what you feel about nations today. I don't hate Norwegians because the Vikings invaded us 1000 years ago...

Hmm. James Bond, yes! Why not!

PS, I just realised, although I would love to meet and talk shop or whatever with you in real life, Rorshach, and I'm sure you're a great guy, I can't help but feel that after reading your posts here, you would be greeting me as an Englishman and therefore being biased against me. Now I'm sure that would not be the case, but I'm just letting you know that this is the impression you're giving off...

[Kevin Johnstone]

Mop: I did try to make it clear that I'm not against the English, I am against England. I am not basing my opinions on a book about the past, I am basing it upon my life up until this point.

I regret I cannot impart the totality of my understand upon this board anymore than others can impart their wisdom to me.

I am making the point that Scots is a slur that is so commonplace that noone thinks of it as a slur.

Likewise, Homosexual is an adjective but it is used so often in the modern worlds context that people think the term is a noun.

We live in a democracy but what democracy means is clearly changing when the media will never cover the contents of any peaceful protest's ideology unless it is the countryside alliance backed by royalty.

What I'm saying we all take a lot at face value without rejecting that enough to think things through ourselves.

I'm not biased against you at all Mop, I actually like you ( such as I have come to know you through the boards) and consider you an intelligent, talented and well balanced person with a fair amount of personal drive.

I also respect Daz and enjoy his viewpoints and the differeing tangents from the normal conversation than spring up around here.

The point being that I am also a 3 Dimensional person. To view me with my daughter you would imagine me a big loveable softy, and I am, to view me at work you might imagine me an overly driven serious and outspoken artist, and I am.

My patriotism is merely one part of me. It is just an overpowering side of me. I generally keep it to myself as it is always misread.

If theres a Purgatory waiting for us all at the end of our life, I'll fight forever to defeat my Pride Demon!
That's just part of who I am.

'part'

[Daz]

"To be clear, no I dont blindly hate the English, but I've educated myself enough to understand who the real enemy is."

Seriously Ror I swear you wouldn't be happy unless we all battled it out across Hadrians wall! ( yes I know thats not the border any more but it would probably be the more fitting setting for the event in your mind ;-p )

"You mentioned you were a lot more 'internationally minded' these days. I don't think you are."

I beg to differ. Im not particularly patriotic by any means. And for sure not remotely as much as yourself. Im very wary of extreme patriotism. Certainly you have lived in more countries than me. But I dont see how that makes you *know* that Im not 'internationally minded'. What did I really mean by that anyway? Partly, I meant that when I think of people I know and when I meet new people, their country of origin is simply irrelevant to me. Not something I think about. My friends here in the Bay area are American, Canadian, Japanese, Irish, Phillipino, French, English, Scottish, you get the picture. Whilst I see you pulled the 'my best friend is an Englishman' card, you'd appreciate that some comments in your post might leave me unconvinced that you are not prone to judging an English book by its cover ( for whatever reason, including personal experience and football hooliganism ;-p ). English football violence abroad, I have zero explanation for btw. And of course its something that England is famous for and obviously not something Im proud of. There are many many things about 'England' that Im not proud of. I only needed one trip to the costa del Brit in Spain to despise my fellow countrymen. I was in Virgin records in San Francisco the other week, and this horrible middle aged couple from Essex were right in front of me on the escalator. He wore some extreme patriotically English tattoos, union jack shorts and a St. Georges Cross vest, was swearing loudly about something or other being shit in this country and and clearly somewhat drunk. I was horrified, trying to keep distance and darent open my mouth for fear of folks around me catching some accent and placing me with them. But there are uncooth louts everywhere. There is an equivalent Glaswegian 'Ned' counterpart, and for an American version, try a trip to Cancun sometime. But anyway, Im digressing. We are probably all guilty of looking at others through stereotyped spectacles to some extent or another.

All your personal experience stuff about life as a kid in Scotland: Its interesting and depressing, but Im honestly not trying to belittle it by saying that Ive heard it all before from my brother in law. But it does explain your views to a large extent.

I do feel that you are avoiding the point that myself and Paul have brought up about where to draw the line with harbouring resentment. Whats the timescale for things to be square? Do the modern people of Nagasaki and Hiroshima despise Americans? I dont know. Perhaps. Perhaps not. But then, harbouring resentment is getting into deeply philosophical debate which, like you say is not best ironed out over the medium of internet messageboard.

Im also gonna play the 'some of my best friends are Scottish' card. Theres definitely been a few uncomfortable times when the drunken Glaswegians have forgotten Im in their prescense when throwing around the 'that fucking English cunt' term ( not referring to me but still. ) Your argument that its sort of OK because you have more historical ( and personal experience ) reason for resentment than us is something that I dont really agree with or like, but shall think about. I still think that your inherant dislike of 'England' as a concept is nebulous. 'vague, generalised' as MoP said. What *is* England? Its people? Its borders? Its government? Everything about it? Fish & chips? Millwall football club? Im not absolutely convinced that you yourself can explain it. You just have these feelings through experience that have to be directed somehwere. Anyway, again, getting too theoretical and philosophical. Some other time!

This has been interesting! And Kman: thanks for letting us hijack your thread :] sorry!

[sundance]

frankly most people i know from england don't really give a rats about scotland or wales and don't even tend rto think about em much. and as for northern ireland, the ost we used to think of them was 'oh shit, another IRA bomb' so meh.

me thinks ror's one of those militant types who be pissed off at someone no matter where he's from, if he was a black guy it be all about slavery and martin luther king, if he was a german, he'd probably be mouthing off against britain and america for WW2...:D

[Kevin Johnstone]

I got a good laugh at the Hadrian's Wall comment.
You're probably right about that. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But aye, sorry for hijacking your thread Kman.

I checked out the initial link you posted last night too, I didnt know that Lost in Translation was spoofing Connery's Whisky add in Japan, that was funny to find.

[Daz]

lol sundance what *was* that couple of paragraphs exactly?

[KMan]

Ror- no worries. It's nice to see some points of view from both sides about the matter. It is definitly interesting. All I know is what twisted half lies were in Braveheart. I don't remember having any history lessons on the british isles while I was in school. And since I'm a stupid yank, I am probably missing half the conversations anyhow. Hehe.

[sundance]

i was just saying ror's probably one of those militant types, that would claim he was suppressed and oppressed where ever he came from. like those militant black people who always bitch that you're oppressing them if you just say hello or something or that claim you're sexist if you just say good day miss.

[TomDunne]

While no excuse for 'militant' behavior, I don't think it's hard to see how blacks in America might come to feel that way. The civil rights movement isn't even 40 years old yet, and being born a typical black in America certainly comes with a different set of challenges today than what faces a typical white. I haven't heard any specific point made by Rorschach that is both as relevant and historically recent as the segregated America my parents were born in. No one is making the Scottish ride at the back of the bus or use separate restrooms...

On another note, I think reading 'Scot' as a racist term is plain ridiculous. Words are meaningless on their own, abstract constructions; it's the intent behind them that gives them purpose. If everyone uses the term merely to mean residents of Scotland, there's nothing racist about it. Adding four characters to form 'Scotsman' or 'Scottish' makes it an acceptable, no longer a racially charged term? Try adding a few letters to 'nigger' and see if you can make that word acceptable. Can't be done, because it still *is* meant as a racial slur. Until this thread, I'd never heard that Scot was intended as one, not any more than saying someone is Welsh or Dutch or Swiss. Should we be calling them Switzish or Switzerlanders because the truncation of the name is offensive? Et ceterea, et cetera. It's a natural truncation of a word, and if Angle wasn't a two-syllable word, you'd get trunctions there, too. But 'Anglo/Englo' isn't saving you any effort over just saying 'English'...


I'd better go on record and say that my perceptions on this are affected by my life experiences as well - we have race riots here in my city, white cops blowing away black kids, boycotts and protests... It's 2004 and there are parts of town I won't enter at night because I'm the wrong color. To hear one pasty skinned, dark haired white guy whose family has lived on a given island for over a millennium say that another pasty skinned, dark-haired white guy whose family has also lived on that island for a millennium is prejudiced against his race... I live with racism and I know what an oppressed people looks like. Roll through the hood in DC sometime, Ror, and see if you can share their plight because your summer cartoons didn't run at a good time. Maybe you are really being discriminated against in Britain, I admit I can't judge that, but compared to what racial division looks like in other countries, even here in the 'Land of the Free'...

*edit*

Shit, and Ror and I were agreeing earlier in the thread. Shot that in the ass, didn't I? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[MoP]

[ QUOTE ]
I am making the point that Scots is a slur that is so commonplace that noone thinks of it as a slur.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ror: Hmm, I don't know about that. I wonder if I took an opinion poll of all of Scotland, and asked if they were offended by being called a "Scot", what results I'd find.
I know for a fact that none of my Scottish friends would mind at all if I said they were "Scots".
Another problem with that is, I'm certain that NO English person is intending to insult the Scottish people when they refer to them as "Scots".
I have a horrible feeling that it's just you and maybe 20 other people in the whole of the Scotland who might think that "Scots" was a racial slur...

Anyway, back onto your other points...

[ QUOTE ]
I did try to make it clear that I'm not against the English, I am against England.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think that, maybe, being "against" England is going to naturally come across as being "against" the English? How can you be against a country and not it's people? After all, the people are those who make the country as it is... So really you must be able to see why a lot confusion is springing up around this point.

[ QUOTE ]
I regret I cannot impart the totality of my understand upon this board anymore than others can impart their wisdom to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that has always been a problem with online discussions, and I would seriously love to understand your full situation and mindset, but I don't think that's ever going to happen. Hell, if it did, and made sense, I might even change my mind!

[ QUOTE ]
My patriotism is merely one part of me. It is just an overpowering side of me. I generally keep it to myself as it is always misread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehehe /images/graemlins/smile.gif

No hard feelings, Ror! Just a difference of opinion here, and I hope you understand my reasons!

MoP

[sundance]

since my name is scott, anyone making it into a racial slur is going to be eating through a straw.

most scottish folks i've met are more happy to be called scots than they are to be called brits.

[Frank]

[ QUOTE ]
i was just saying ror's probably one of those militant types, that would claim he was suppressed and oppressed where ever he came from. like those militant black people who always bitch that you're oppressing them if you just say hello or something or that claim you're sexist if you just say good day miss.

[/ QUOTE ]I think Ror would rather I let him speak for himself, but I would like to say that this is a very wrong impression of him, and probably why he keeps these opinions to himself most of the time.

I'd also like to point out to Verm that Ror didn't compare his experiences to those of black Americans, sundance did. And all he actually said was that he felt Ror was as reactionary as some black Americans that might take any perceived slight as an excuse to sue the government. Which is, as I said, very wrong.

Frank the Avenger

[poopinmymouth]

I'm scottish, (ancestry anyway) and anyone who feels like it can call me a Scot, I won't mind.

[ryan77]

im belgian, you can call me a waffle...

[Rick Stirling]

For Geography:

Northern Ireland is British. The two big islands are the British Isles. The larger of the two is know as Great Britian, while the smaller has no known name. The original "lesser Britain" was in fact in France - Brittainy.

Anyway, there is a Britian, which is that same as 2 islands, Great Britiah which is the larger. The UK is the UK of Great Britian and Northen Ireland, and this is British.

And it says British on my passport.

[Rick Stirling]

Oh, and stick David Niven into the poll.

[Dukester]

I think Harl explained this to me many moons ago, but lets see if I have this straight.

So...

England, Wales and Scottland make up the larger island which is "Great Britain" and Ireland and Northern Ireland make up the smaller island.
The United Kingdom is England, Wales, Scottland and Northern Ireland.
Have I finally got this correct now?

Also what do the Shetlands fall under?

[Rick Stirling]

Thats bang on Dukester.

The Shetlands, and The Outer hebrides (or Western Isles) are part of the UK, and as I recall are both Scottish.

There is another big island called the Isle of Man, its in the Irish sea. It is not part of the UK, its a self governing kingdom, but mainly uses the English language and currency.

[Dukester]

Thanks.
Polycount Message Boards: General Discussion and Geography
/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[sundance]

the british isles also includes the orkney islands which are between the shetlands and the mainland of scotland, and the isles of scilly which are off the south-western tip of cornwall. i think you'll find that the isle of man is actually a crown colony, and is self-governing, it's not a kingdom cos it's part of the commonwealth (which is made up of countries which used to be the empire; eg australia, new zealand, canada, south africa and a bunch of places in africa and the caribbean and also the falkland islands and dependencies in the south atlantic. and the channel islands which are near france).

i think you'll find that the second biggest island of the british isles is called Eire, as the southern republic was once called.

[Rick Stirling]

From: http://www.isleofman.com/about/

What makes the Isle of Man different from anywhere else in the British Isles? Many things! The Island is a unique self-governing kingdom - a Crown dependency which belongs to neither the UK nor the European Union. It has its own parliament (called Tynwald), laws, traditions, culture, cuisine and postage stamps. But as a holiday island it is best known for its very agreeable and relaxed pace of life, along with a wealth of attractions and places to stay. And while other differences include the Manx language and currency (though English is the spoken tongue and English and UK currencies are accepted everywhere), there are also reassuring familiarities - such as driving on the left and road signs in English.

[MoP]

"We're from the Isle of Man." - The Fast Show. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Voodoo]

I'm a direct decendent of the Master of the Mayflower, that's as far back in my history as I know. But you can all just call me Mutt Boy because I also have some german and polish blood I think.

[Daz]

dont forget the Isle of Man TT race Rick! The most insane motorcycle race ANYWHERE.

http://www.iomtt.com/

This thread deserves some kind of award for 'most derailed original subject'!

[Rick Stirling]

I'm more of a fan of the North West 200 in Northern Ireland.

I'm really hoping that Climax do a Moto GP spin off for Road Racing. That would be insanely good fun on Xbox Live.

[Dukester]

Ha resurection /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Brosnan speaks last May...
http://www.cinema.com/news/item.phtml?ID=6976

and Brosnan speaks last week (bottom of the article)
http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/story/sm_1160049.html?menu=entertainment.celebrities

I personally don't want Jackman for next Bond.
I think Farrell could do it. He is one actor nowadays that I always look forward to watching. I think he is pretty much an outstanding choice, but I'm not sure if he is the kinda guy who would want to be tagged with that kinda recurring role.

[Daz]

I just dont see Farrel working out for me. But maybe thats just because Im used to hearing him do an American accent I dont know. I dunno, he just seems a bit too 'Hollywood' for the role for my liking. If you liked Die Another Day, then I guess thats fitting, but to inject some much needed 'Britishness' into the franchise, I think Owen would ( for rather obvious reasons ) work out better than Farrel or Jackman.

I saw this amusing and somewhat arrogant quote from Pierce yesterday, so he seems to be a bit of a 'flip-flopper'! Either that or he is just constantly misquoted on the subject ( probably more likely ):

"Irish heart-throb Pierce Brosnan has said he believes there should be no more Bond movies following his last appearance as 007.

The 51-year-old has been dropped from the super spy role and Colin Farrell, Hugh Jackman, Jude Law and Colin Firth have all been rumoured to be the next incumbent.

At the premiere of his latest film, After The Sunset, Brosnan joked: "I would not like anyone else to be Bond. I would like them to stop there and never do another one."

However, Brosnan, who is backing fellow Irishman Farrell for the part, is realistic about the action hero's future.

He added: "It's a modern franchise so there will be another Bond and whoever does it will have a great time."

After The Sunset was shown as part of the The Times BFI London Film Festival.
"

[Dukester]

LOL Brosnan seems to be getting the most publicity from this than anyone!

I don't like Jackman for the role. Physically he is prbably a-ok, but I think it should be cast to someone from either (as I learned from this thread) the small British island or the big British island. Really I do.

I still think Farrell, could do it /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Asherr]

hehe /images/graemlins/smile.gif

PIERCE BROSNAN has tipped Harry Potter star DANIEL RADCLIFFE to be a future James Bond.

The actor, who has slipped into the the suave spy’s tuxedo for a decade, said the schoolboy had the potential to be a “perfect” 007.

Brosnan, in London for the premiere of his new movie After The Sunset, said: “For the next Bond, COLIN FARRELL would be great. But if you want to go even younger, Daniel Radcliffe.

“Give him a few years. You can see it, can’t you? He’ll be great. From Harry Potter to Bond.”


link (http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,4-2004511499,,00.html)

[Daz]

OK, it's all been decided. Theyve found our man:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/insiders/guides/articles/14483616?source=Metro

/goes off to gather reference.

[thnom]

I apologize about Brosnan, apparently Irish/English (moved at a young age to England).

I thought he was a PURE yank

\o/

He's been the bond I've really grown up with, so the next bond will be when *I* can say how good he was..

[Marine]

daz: heh, will smith said the exact same thing a few years back too

[Mishra]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, it's all been decided. Theyve found our man:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/insiders/guides/articles/14483616?source=Metro

/goes off to gather reference.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can actually see that happening

[thnom]

If it happens I'll spit on the name. If it does happen it'll be for 2 words "Political Correctness".

Problems: He's a speaker
He's not an actor (see above)
He isn't British (Or UK)
He's black

The one good thing going for him (not saying blacks are below anyone on that..) is that he's confident in his attitude, although I don't think it'd carry to the big screen.

[sundance]

if they have a black bond i thinnk there's better people out there than p fakata diddy

[Rick Stirling]

...and now Brosnan says he DID want to do it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/3988029.stm

Actor Pierce Brosnan has confirmed he will not play James Bond again, accusing producers of going back on an offer for him to return.

Brosnan, who has appeared in four Bond blockbusters, said he agreed to film a fifth but was "gutted" when filmmakers changed their minds.

[Ruz]

how about 'jimmy nail' as bond or 'vinny jones' or hey, notorious english hard man 'Hugh Grant'

BTW connery 'is' bond , brosnan is a nancy boy with girly hair

[Rick Stirling]

At least he *has* hair...

[Ruz]

connery has a little bit of hair left, but last time I saw him interviewed, he seemed a bit senile.

[Rick Stirling]

Connery wore a hairpeice in EVERY Bond film, from a simple patch to a full blown wig.

[Dukester]

and in Bond news today

http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Movies/11/09/film.bond.reut/index.html

and

http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/entertainment/8742004.htm

[Kevin Johnstone]

I've been crossing my fingers for Macgregor since I first read this thread. Jude Law might be the sensible Metro Sexual age Bond but I'd prefer to get back a little to what Connery brought to the role and I think most Ewans previous roles show slices of that old Connery smug arrogance that made him so enjoyable to me.

[Dukester]

how do you pronounce his name "Ewan" ? is it spoken the same way as Ian?

[Rick Stirling]

Yuan

[MoP]

I reckon Ewan McGregor would make a pretty good Bond. He'd have to dye his hair darker though!
I personally would hate Jude Law as Bond, I don't rate him as an actor. Plus his face just seems... wrong... for Bond.

[Scott Ruggels]

...wow.. and I thought U.S.Politics got complicated. Now I neverwant to visit the U.K....


As to the Bond Replacement, please not Hugh Jackman, and please not (the overexposed) Jude Law. Ewan MacGregor would be a good choice, I think though. Jackman is just not "Heavy enough". He seems like a lightweight. and Jude Law is just overexposed.

Scott

[MoP]

A lightweight?! Jackman IS Wolverine! (I personally don't think they could have picked a better actor for that role) /images/graemlins/smile.gif

That said, I don't think he'd suit the Bond role. But you never know. He looks a bit too grizzly, I think, not smooth and suave enough.

[TomDunne]

Hugh Jackman looks to grizzly? Watch Kate & Leopold.

[Dukester]

Yuan, thanks! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I agree Mop. They would need to dye the hair for McGregor, but I think he could work well.

Jude Law is a little too..too.."Hugh Grant" for my taste. Law reminds me of a "Moore type" acting Bond,
who couldn't kick Moore's ass and wouldn't be believable kicking anyones ass.

The only problem I have with Jackman is that he is Australian. And for me that is a big problem.

"The idea of me playing James Bond got into the press, but it is not true. I would not like to do it ...
they should find someone the audience has no history with," Farrell said.

While I was pulling for Farrell he is probably right with his asessment!

[sundance]

one of the british papers was touting some guy from some welsh language BBC soap opera...

[Rick Stirling]

I've always touted Ray Winstone as Bond, but Ror always hits me /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Kevin Johnstone]

Ray ' I'm the fucking daddy now' Winstone? heh , yeah hes got the figure for it doesnt he !

[Rick Stirling]

Well, who said Bond was a wee skinny lad? Maybe it needs a real man to take the role. He'd be a damn sight better than Jude Law.

"Blofeld? you're fucked mate."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1145000/images/_1146221_ray_winstone_150.jpg

Noone has mentioned Jonny Lee Miller, he might be able to carry it off, but I think he too 'boyish'.

Anyway, Ray is booked up for the next few years, including a major role in Nick Caves "The Proposition".

[Kevin Johnstone]

'Oi Goldfinger! Whar's yuir fooking Chib?'

All due respect to the big man, I love his work, his finer moments like in Sexy Beast are fantastic but he's not bond. Bond , for me, has always been the combination of ruffian , rogue, aristocrat and ladies man. Winstone ain much of an aristocrat or ladies man, as he said himself in Sexy's beasts extras ' I'm normally the guy thats brought into to beat the other fella up, I don't normally get to kiss the girl'.

Jonny Lee Miller might be good, but what you dub boyish, I would simply dismiss as weakness, I dont think he has the necessary scowling nature in his soul like Ewan is able to muster so effortlessly that it sneaks into every third glance the way Nicolsons grin sneaks into his every 2nd glance.

I won't be talked out of this though ( how unlike me) , I've been rooting quietly for Ewan to take on the role of Bond since Shallow Grave.... which was quite a wee while ago now eh? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[MoP]

They could always get Johnny Vegas as James Bond... ahahahahaHAHAHA! *cough*

[Jinxter]

I would like to a somewhat unknown to play Bond...someone like Adrian Paul.

[sundance]

well, he's not an unknown is he? he was in a popular 6-season TV show AND made a movie spin-off

[thnom]

[ QUOTE ]
If everyone uses the term merely to mean residents of Scotland, there's nothing racist about it. Adding four characters to form 'Scotsman' or 'Scottish' makes it an acceptable, no longer a racially charged term? Try adding a few letters to 'nigger' and see if you can make that word acceptable. Can't be done, because it still *is* meant as a racial slur.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about the term "pak" or "paki".. highly racial..

[Kevin Johnstone]

thnom: Can we let that side of this thread die pls?

I don't actually care if anyone calls me or mine a Scot, that's how I have always referred to me and mine. I raised the point about racial slurs simply to demonstrate how for people from pakistan or china, being called a chink or paki is widely seen as being racist and with the Scottish abbreviation it is not.

The point of bringing that up was to try to encourage people to take a step back and relook at the whole issue.

That point went down like a ton of bricks and it was obvious I was flogging a dead horse so I let the debate die because noone was actually reading whole posts, I was getting ranted at for others words rather than my own.

So , let's keep the thread on the subject of bond pls.

[Dukester]

After watching Bridget Jones last night, I'm pretty convinced Colin Firth should not be in the running either,

[frosty]

Wow I had not seen how far this string has come or gone so to speak.

As far as race I guess you can call me Lost Bastard /images/graemlins/crazy.gif since I look nothing like my siblings and outweigh most of them x 2 times. I seriously think my creation came out of a few one nighters me Mum must have participated in. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif




Have any of you considered any of the Baldwin brothers for the 007 role? I think they were Irish?

[Daz]

Frosty you cannot be serious!

/images/graemlins/smile.gif They're internationally despised! Plus If they are Irish, they're Irish American, which contrary to their own belief, is not actually Irish.

[Dukester]

And in Bond news from over last weekend...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4009157.stm

[Kevin Johnstone]

/me crosses his fingers....

[Rick Stirling]

If he doesn't get it, I'll buy you a bottle of Bushmills.

[Kevin Johnstone]

I'll have Black Bush thanks.
I have witnesses remember!

[Marine]

if he gets it, they need to get tarantino to direct it, you can pretty much guarantee he'll get rid of the more outlandish toys

[Dukester]

I saw that link about Tarantino and had mixed feelings about it.

On one hand I think if I lump all my favorite Bond movies together (regardless of who plays Bond) they all seem like they were made by the same director. Hence forgoing any ego and following the standard Bond way of directing.

Still, Tarantino is good at homages to directors he has enjoyed!

Would be interesting, but I would bet it won't happen.

[TomDunne]

[ QUOTE ]
On one hand I think if I lump all my favorite Bond movies together (regardless of who plays Bond) they all seem like they were made by the same director.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a reason for that. If you discount the two oddballs of the 007 series, Never Say Never Again and On Her Majesty's Secret Service, there were just four Bond directors through the first three decades of the franchise (John Glen, Lewis Gilbert, Guy Hamilton, Terence Young). Each of them directed at least three films, so they managed to establish a certain continuity. Additionally, the producer for all for each of those nearly thirty years of films was Albert Broccoli. His last production was the last Dalton film, License to Kill. Since that time (the four Brosnan films), Bond has had a new director for each outing - Brosnan worked with as many directors as Connery, Moore and Dalton combined. The lack of focus that has plagued the franchise over the last ten years can't really come as a surprise when you consider the productions themselves.

Interestingly, none of the Bond directors considered a big name. Competent and solid, but not really anyone that casual film-goers are likely to have heard of. The most famous Bond director would have to be Irvin Kershner on the renegade NSNA, as that was the first film he directed after Empire Strikes Back. Even that's a bit of a stretch, because he never really directed much else that people are familiar with outside those two films.

It's too bad that MGM doesn't go the route of making Bond something of an anthology of highly talented collaborations with top-notch writers and directors, rather than peddling the same formula again and again. I think Tom Cruise had the right idea with his Mission: Impossible series (De Palma, Woo and he'd have had Joe Carnahan if the M:I3 production wasn't fubar), but his gigantic ego has kept them from being as good as they could have been. Oh, or better yet the BMW 'The Hire' series. Perfect example in fact! Not only is Clive Owen pretty damned appropriate for the Bond role, look at the different directors and how they put their mark on their pieces: John Frankenheimer, Ang Lee, Woo (again), Carnahan (again), Tony Scott... Hell, who'd have thought Guy Ritchie such a damned good chase scene? A talented pairing of good writers and directors could be way more significant than whom the new actor will be, if they pick the right pair. Give me writer Chris McQuarrie (Usual Suspects) and director Michael Mann (Heat) and I won't give a damn who's ordering that vodka martini...

[sundance]

cruise's ego? what about woo's? he told the script writer what stunts he wanted and the guy had to build a movie around them, how's that for ego?

[TomDunne]

Joe Carnahan dropped out of M:I3 in July due to 'creative differences'. Must be John Woo's ego got in the way there. I suppose it's also Woo's fault that Alan Silvestri was booted from the first film before scoring more than 30 minutes of the movie. Big Cruise fan, are you?

[Daz]

Jesus Verm you know more about the Bond franchise than anyone here I work alongside on the er, Bond franchise.

[TomDunne]

I've been studying them as case files in my ongoing research on how to take over the world. So far, I've ruled out robbing Fort Knox with hottie stunt pilots, employing midgets with pitchforks or large men with metal teeth, and anything involving airborne viruses deployed via stealth space station.

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Dukester]

Where do you stand on faking faberge eggs?

[TomDunne]

I totally disapprove, but that's because I'm a big fan of Carl Faberge's work. My inner super-villain just wouldn't feel right, faking the artistry of one of the world's greatest artisans. On the other hand, I find the idea of henchmen with circular saw yo-yo weaponry to be strangely appealing...

[KMan]

Another bond goodbye. Since Brosnan is out of the picture, Samantha Bond (Moneypenny), will also be calling it quits.
/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.mi6.co.uk/sections/articles/icons/samantha_bond.jpg (http://www.mi6.co.uk/sections/articles/bond_21_samantha_bond.php3?t=bond21&s=bond21)

[Jes]

[ QUOTE ]
Another bond goodbye. Since Brosnan is out of the picture, Samantha Bond (Moneypenny), will also be calling it quits.
/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.mi6.co.uk/sections/articles/icons/samantha_bond.jpg (http://www.mi6.co.uk/sections/articles/bond_21_samantha_bond.php3?t=bond21&s=bond21)

[/ QUOTE ]Awww... She was a good actress.. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[frosty]

Daz I was serious about the Baldwins, just did not realize they were so hated. I had thoughts along the taller leaner Balwin, Daniel I think.

Is Liam Neeson also a horrible choice?

Vermilion knows everything about everything. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think Ben Affleck should play Bond and J-Lo as a hottie a-la-carte. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Dukester]

I'm hoping for Ben Affleck to play Bond!! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MoP]

J-Lo as Moneypenny

[sundance]

if that happens, i will go down to EON with a walther P99 and shoot the frigging producers.

the best bond there never was and never will be is sean bean. it's such a shame he was janus/alec in goldeneye...

[Kevin Johnstone]

And if I unknowingly walk into the cinema to watch it with those 'actors' in the talked about roles, I trust you will also shoot me too. Save my sanity!

I'd be like one of those poor infected with an Alien types begging those passing by to 'please, kill me'.

[Dukester]

ha ha! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I never considered Bean, but he would do the part justice. I think he is pretty good in everything I've seen him in!

[frosty]

Dukester and Mop, quit trying to repeat me! /images/graemlins/smile.gif hehe.

Hey really Affleck would suck, but he was decent in Phillip Dick's Paycheck, he really was.

As far as Tarantino goes, I just watched, yes just finally watched Kill Bill I and was not that impressed, the opening fight scene with Uma in tight bluejeans and that pretty black chic was the best part of it all. imho.

[frosty]

How about Peter Coyote in his younger days or Rip Torn in his youthful days. Fuct I am getting old......:(

[Rick Stirling]

Affleck is dire, Paycheck was fucking abysmal, and Kill Bill was stunning.

And its a pity, but you can't make old people young. Or alive.

[Dukester]

first we had Roger Moore pluggin Mcgregor, now we have yet another former Bond recommending him /images/graemlins/smile.gif

http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/celebrity/14632004.htm

[Dukester]

this week in the Bond roulette...

http://www.bondmovies.com/news/41.shtml

[gauss]

i think ewan would be great, but i think his career would do better not to get saddled with another undeserving franchise of which his role is the best part (no further comment on that one). this 'Ioan Gruffudd' fellow looks like he could be up to it; i think it's a role best for an actor who doesn't have too many really high visibility roles to his credit. not that i'd be unhappy to see ewan in the role, though. anyone besides colin farrell, yech.


also, can someone explain to me why pierce brosnan steps down from being bond, so that he can go and do fairly forgettable bond-like roles? i can't remember what his new one is called but it looks far too much like the thomas crown affair, which was itself pretty bondish. i dunno.

[Daz]

Ah a Welshman thrown into the mix.

He's a relative unknown. British audiences might remember him starring in the really awesome 'Peacekeepers' BBC drama about UN troops serving in Bosnia.

But I dunno, he seems a bit young and a bit of a mummys boy to me.

[MoP]

Plus there'd be approximately 99% of cinemagoers saying "Yeah, the new Bond film, starring that Gruff-fudd guy!"
Griffith o_O

[sundance]

nah, after next summer it'll be 100% of people saying, 'WTF is mr fantastic doing playing BOND?!'

[Dukester]

Hmmm... not familiar with him.
He also seems like he is not a young Bond...

http://www.thisislondon.com/showbiz/articles/20594611?source=Daily%20Mail&ct=5

[danr]

yay! Good choice. James Bond should seethe, and he's a definite seether. It's also important for Bond to seem old enough to have been around the world 50 times and getting his head constantly kicked in, before gaining and losing a wife, and then going round the world another 50 times with another round of vicious kickings. Should be spot on.

[Daz]

bloodyhell, talk about dredging up an old thread!

I dunno Duke, mid thirties seems young to me compared to the 50+ Brosnan no?

If you don't know Craig, check out 'Layer Cake'. Good movie.

http://www.apple.com/trailers/sony/layer_cake.html

I don't think Craig is absolutely confirmed though.

[Dukester]

LOL yeah it is old, but I consider myself the keeper of this flame /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Not old as in compared to the other Bonds, but rumors fly around and you hear all this 20 something stuff, that's what I was refering to.

[Joshua Stubbles]

Not going to get into it, so just quickly:

1) Connery
2) Brosnan

'nuff said.

[Weiser_Cain]

Should have been only Connery in my op. So who's going to be the new triple... I mean Bond?

[Dukester]

LOL
Sorry for the resurrection, but if you read the posts that were made today you'll know who the latest bet for who is playing the next Bond is /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[HarlequiN]

Blimey...

Urm, yeah, either I completely missed this thread as I've been busy, or I chose not to post on it originally because if I said everything I wanted to say about Bond, the direction it has taken and where I wish it would go I'd have typed more than what Daz, Ror and Rick have written combined.

Am I happy with the choice? I have no idea, I'm not familiar with the actor in question, but that I feel is probably a good thing as I'll have no preconceived notions of him from other perfomances. Mind you, if things don't improve from Die Another Day I don't think it'll matter as I won't give a shit any more. DAD had about 10 minutes of good stuff in it, and none of that was in sequence, but dotted throughout the film. And a Bond film doing a 100% non practical effect just shows me how truly fucking lazy they've become (I have no problem with enchancing an effect with CG, but the surfing sequence was 100% CG, and looked worse than the effects in You only Live Twice, and that's about 40 years old!)

For the record, I liked Brosnan, I liked him a lot, I just think they gave him dick all to work with. His best was Goldeneye (IMO, though it had some major flaws, it was a lot of fun) and in that film I think he came truly somewhere between all the Bonds that had come before him (save Niven maybe). I had high hopes, but it's been all downhill since then, with only the occassional ray of sunlight through the clouds. I blame the Americans - and I don't feel bad for that, since the Americans I work with blame the Americans too /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Connery was the best, Moore the funniest, Lasenby the most misunderstood, and Dalton perhaps the most realisticaly human (if Bond can ever be said to be realistic). I loved every one of them, depending on the mood I'm in, although Connery is my prefered choice.

Ewan McGregor would have been a good choice I feel, he was one of the few things that kept me in the theatre for the last two Star Wars "films", and I have enormous respect for him as an actor, and as someone already said, Bond is half Scottish.
Ioan Gruffudd would have been a cool choice too, although I feel he's still a little young and not grizzled enough around the edges. I'd be pleased as punch if he got the chance the next go around though. And he's Welsh (Yay), and Tins informs me he has an emormous cock, which is something I feel Bond probably should have /images/graemlins/wink.gif

BTW, Daz, there's already been a Welsh Bond - Dalton was born in Wales (Colwyn Bay), but raised in Derbyshire. Yes yes, he's Irish/Italian/English/Welsh, but it's close enough for me /images/graemlins/smile.gif Oh, and he had his opening sequence in Gibralter, and my Dad used to work at where the Land Rover chase begins /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'd better shut up and go to bed now before I start on about something else and can't get up for work in the morning. Damn, and I was only just getting warmed up.

[thnom]

YESS!! WOOOHOOO Daniel Craig ROCKED so hard in Layer Cake. Great choice IMO and a brit /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Dukester]

it took a year, but q-branch finally wieghed in /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[KMan]

Well, the choice is still not confirmed. Supposedly something official is going to be said this week or the next.

I can hardly wait!

[Kevin Johnstone]

I would have liked it to have been Jason Statham (lack of hair didn't prevent Connery wearing a rug!) because he's probably the 1st convincing british action star for a while.

Previously I'd been rooting for Ewan out of national bias, but after watching the 2nd transporter, i just thought that Jason could pull it off in ways heh

Of course Daniel Craig has the accent that the ladies will like and Bond has been having his cock progressively cut off more and more to suit our feminist age so wee Dan is surely more the man for today... mutter mutter...

r.

[HarlequiN]

I think I'd hav eliked to see Mr. Sean Bean as a possibly contender for the role too, but I suspect he's probablt a little old now, as well as having played both a 00 and a villain in a previous film (Goldeneye of course).
I respect Bean more and more every time I see him, and I now get annoyed each time he's in a film but basically wasted,which, since I hated him in Patriot games shows how far I think he's come.
Jason Stratham would probably have been pretty good in the role, but I think he's probably headed the same way as most British actors - villain in every action film made, or supporting cast to Harry Potter (tallent wasted left right and centre /images/graemlins/frown.gif ).

[Dukester]

Sean Bean is absolutely perfect in every role he has been cast. I've got to the point where I think he transcends the shitty movie factor and I give the movie points because he is in it. I had a hard time dealing with that "my brother, my king" scene, dammit /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Dukester]

supposed to be offically announced Friday.(according to CNN)
odds are is that it is Craig.
good or bad i don't know, but he seems a better prospect than many I saw nominated.

[KMan]

Well, I guess it's been leaked. Does that mean that his mom has to die? News Posing from MI6 (http://www.mi6.co.uk/news/index.php?itemid=2897&catid=2)

[Kevin Johnstone]

Harl: For shame m8, don't get so down, theres plenty of brit actors and actress' doing good works beyond the scope and range of your gloomy resignations /images/graemlins/wink.gif

You ought to be getting one of your brit film buff m8's to keep you up to date with the brit films worth watching that are coming out still.

Just because 'they' have production values doesnt lessen the worth of 'our' having words /images/graemlins/wink.gif

r.

[Dukester]

[ QUOTE ]
scold, reprimand, scold

[/ QUOTE ]

since you brought up the subject, and since this thread has gone all over the place, why don't you reccomend some recent films to look for. it is hard enough to find a shitty american dvd to rent on friday night. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

there is no reason for this thread to die tomorrow!
gimme some reccomendations to watch of "with the brit films worth watching that are coming out still."

I'm drinking your whisky, tell me what to watch too /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[KMan]

Right, we can let this thread die another day.

I enjoyed watching Sean Bean play a soldier in the 'Sharpe' series. Only saw a few of the early ones long ago, but what I saw, I liked.

Oh, my!
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000065KTL.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[gauss]

I did enjoy Craig's work in Layer Cake enormously, even if the movie itself was a dim attempt at being a Guy Ritchie film. I agree with Harl that I'd like to see perhaps a little different take on the production of the series... Daniel Craig seems like a good place to start.

[Dukester]

and for those of you who are interested in being Bond for a career /images/graemlins/smile.gif

http://www.mi6.gov.uk

[Kevin Johnstone]

Duke: heh, thats really funny, honest too i guess!

Try -

Sexy Beast - Retired brit gangster, living the stereotypical british dream of retirement in Spain until,
Ben Kingsley, playing the pyscho for once, comes to demand he come back to help 'do a job'.

The Madness of King George - Based on 'Mad Georgie' and his bouts with madness during the time 'the colonies' broke away and became the United states.
It's a comedy, but it's touching and insightful and best of all, really insulting to the monarchy.

Layer Cake is now out here in the states, ita good fun and not simply a knocked off Lock Stock and 2 smoking barrels though
it is fair to say there are similar themes, still, its more cool and fun than outright over the top and violent like
LSATSB and Snatch are.

The Limey is worth a watch, while were're on Brit Gangster flicks. You could be really fancy and catch up on the original Get Carter and Italian job and see why brits moan about the remakes?

Billy Connelly can act pretty good inbetween being in low grade funny roles or doing standup.
Debt Collecter - he plays an ex Debt Collecter trying to bury his dark past become an artist with varying degrees of
success, possibly some personal reasons there, who knows.
Her Majesty Mrs Brown - again he shows his acting calibre here , opposite Dame Judy Dench, again, based on a piece of history here, very moving stuff.

There plenty more if you are interested, if theres certain things you are curious about, let me know.

No need to stop with Brit Films, Ozzie films are great too you know? Worth sampling -

Chopper - Folk hero ish pyscho (maybe , maybe not) that is in and out of prison and halfway through decides to beat up criminals and pretend he's working for the cops.
Funny and violent and again, based loosely on the truth.

The Dish - Sam Neil stars are the head of the dish in OZ that America used solely to transmit the first pictures of a man walking on the moon.
It's a little known fact, so the Ozzies thought it was time we all learned it and its humour is just fantastic imo.

Let me know how you get on with that little lot, they are mostly just fun films with a bit of a historical, did it or didn't it twist, alongside some good old fashion brit gangster violence with accents and terms that you probably will not get completly !

r.

[Dukester]

The Madness of King George is a great movie, happened upon it by accident and really enjoyed it. I have seen both the originals of Get Carter and The Italian Job. Never saw the remake of the Italian Job.

Thanks for the suggestions, I'm gonna look for a few this week /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[danr]

i think i'd rather slit my wrists and rub a tramp's shit into the wounds than watch The Limey again (not a british film, by the way). I've never liked Steven Soderbergh, but this one really made me despise him and everything he stands for.

[Kevin Johnstone]

Let me see if I'm reading between the subtle lines you wrote there.... you're saying you'd give it a 4 out of 5? /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Didn't realise it wasn't a brit film, I guess it's been a while!
I'm wondering now what your description for Gangster no.1 or I'll Sleep when I'm dead might have been !

r.